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2008 Cadillac CTS

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Comments

  • 150mphclub150mphclub Posts: 317
    Got the old 8 ball working, do ya?
  • len00len00 Posts: 22
    Thank you for your interest in the 2008 Cadillac CTS. We have already placed stock orders and expect to have one in stock late August at which time we expect to have pricing. You could order one now subject to 2007 pricing plus any increase.
    Let me know how I can assist you.

    I don't really know exactly what this means but I E-mailed back asking for some hard numbers and that I would be interested in ordering if the GMS price is a good one. I will get back to this forum when I receive a reply...

    Len
  • ortegaortega Posts: 57
    At 50k, the CTS would be too close in pricing to the 08 STS (an STS w/Premium Performance and Luxury pkgs goes for like $54k). They have to bring it in much lower to reinforce the value proposition in relation to the competition. IMO, Cadillac is not yet in a position to command $50k for their "entry-level" sedan, even with all options - it would not make market sense. As an entry-level car in the line, it would definitely be compared to the likes of a TL, G, C-class, 3-series (all these are in the 33-45k range) and therefore be priced accordingly. I think they need to try to keep pricing under $45k all in for this car. Unless GM plans to introduce something smaller to compete with the cars mentioned above, they have stay in line with them.
  • ortegaortega Posts: 57
    I'll bet you a case of your drink of choice that this car does not approch $50k fully loaded...not possible.
  • ortegaortega Posts: 57
    The dimensions and specs referencing the outgoing model have been removed from the online ordering guide at http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/ I assume that means they're going to post the correct specs & dimensions soon.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    I hope you are correct. I am willing to consider $47,999 as the new price for an all optioned, AWD version.

    I would be both pleased and somewhat pleasantly surprised to hear that such a version was priced equal to or less than $45K.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I'll bet you a case of your drink of choice that this car does not approch $50k fully loaded...not possible.

    You're on. Make it Corona plus a bag of limes please. :P

    A "fully loaded" (with navi) BMW 335i has a MSRP about $52K. Top of the line IS350 goes for around 48K and G35 for about $45K. Since the new CTS is more comparable to the 5-series/GS/E-class I don't think a fully loaded, top of the line version with a MSRP of $50K is unreasonable.
  • thebugthebug Posts: 294
    ortega - I agree, it can't go that high because it will be too close to the next in the line,and that just doesn't make good business sense. 50K range would probably knock the STS (or both vehicles)out the box. Both couldn't be that close to the same price.

    I think it will come in at 37.5K top of the line standard features only or base price, and with all the bells and whistles at about 44.5K. I want all but the sunroof, and I think I can get it OTD for 44K. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    thebug...
  • Some of you don't realize that they redesigned the STS for the 2008 year. Its priced around $42,390 - $51,810. They didn't redesign the CTS just to throw away all the improvements on the STS and make that obsolete. In order for cadillac to gain marketshare and win back buyers who have turned to foreign carmakers they need to price the cadillac competitively.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    The new CTS is more comparable to the 5 series, etc?

    At this time, the CTS is NOT a member of the LPS family. The STS is compared and discussed in the same forums, the same breath, so to speak.

    The CTS is -- at least for the time being -- in the Entry LPS family.

    The CTS (NOT the CTS-V) at $50K, will have, IMHO, few takers -- i.e., at that price, at THIS time, a $50K MSRP is unreasonable, perhaps very unreasonable.

    Now, I do agree that the wheelbase of the CTS is "comparable" to the Audi A6, the BMW 5, and so on. But in this case, "size" (alone) does not matter (much.)

    The CTS pre-press is very encouraging, but I would think it will take some time (years) for the CTS to be included in the LPS family.

    Folks (like me) MAY consider the CTS for its extra wheelbase and interior volume -- also folks (like me) are unlikely to consider it a direct competitor with the rest of the LPS "usual suspects" (see the LPS forum right here on edmunds for a complete list of who is and who ain't.)

    What was it they used to say, "beer has bubbles, champagne has bubbles; but, they are, generally speaking, NOT substitutes for each other."

    I would probably imagine folks will look at a new A4, 3 series and/or "C" class Mercedes and wander over to the Cadillac showroom for a look see at the new CTS.

    I remain, "completely certain and often mistaken."
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    I agree with the OTD statement. But, count me in on the "beer bet" -- a top o' the line version at $47,999 with an OTD price of $44-ish-K or VERY favorable lease price (perhaps after 6 months) seems "prudent."

    :surprise:
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I just don't get it. The car is going to be in the mid 30K range like the last one. Yet there seems to be a small group of naysayers who have it in theirheads that it will cost 45K+ and then use that as a justification to bash it.

    Look - the car is a 5 series/E/ES/etc competitor. If Hyundai made a full size luxury sedan for $35K, you'd have no problem I bet comparing it with a 5 series. And singing its praises as a low cost alternative.

    Yet, because it's GM, well... it's downgraded to a ELPS and then whined about endlessly that it's too big, heavy, expensive...

    Six months and the 45K+ nonsense is still going round and round on these boards.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    No bashing here. I hope you are correct, in fact.

    I tend to look at the car optioned, since base prices can be made very attractive by virtue of content.

    Take the A4, 3 series, C series, G and so on and load em up -- then ditto the CTS.

    How is it that over on the LPS board, the only Cadillac offered up "in class" is the STS against the 5?

    I am encouraged that Cadillac will only be helped by the introduction of the new CTS -- it is just not (yet) a member of the LPS league.

    That is not bashing, that's the circumstances tacitly (at least) agreed to by edmunds, C&D, R&T and a whole host of others. The CTS is one step down, for the time being.

    The STS folks are unlikely to agree that the CTS competes with it or the 5 or the GS or the . . . .

    The STS, at this point, is unlikely to go up against the bigger, flagships from Audi, BMW, Lexus or Mercedes.

    Cadillac seems to have built an alternative for those of us who might shop the 3 series, not the 5, despite the wheelbase similarities.

    GM? Hmm, I see no reason to automatically put down the Cadillac becuase it is from GM. In some aspects, quite the contrary. The CTS will be mid forties -- if it is, as you say, they will sell like hot cakes. Make mine 300HP, premium paint, sport and all do-dads on the option sheet; at that price, hell, make it two.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    most people do NOT get the fully loaded version of any luxury car. This is why the 328 outsells the 330/335 and why the base CTS will likely outsell the 300hp CTS. The top of the line CTS is not going to be the volume seller so while it may be steep at $45k+ that will NOT hurt the car overall since most people will be buying models priced in the $30k range. I think a loaded 335i is too expensive and obviously most 3 series shoppers agree because most models sold are not 335s, much less fully optioned models costing close to $50k.
  • len00len00 Posts: 22
    Maybe this will help the discussion a bit... I have talked to Infiniti of Nashua, NH regarding a 2007 G35X. I have a tentative deal for $100 over invoice which would make a selling price of $37,186. Now, I know that everybody is going to say you can't compare an '07 to an '08 but in this case the '08 G35X sedan will be a carry-over so the price will not move much. The $37,186 price tag is for a fully loaded car. AWD, 306 hp, navigation, wood trim, back-up camera, bluetooth, adaptive headlights, hard drive, heated leather, moonroof, etc. Now, I suppose it comes down to does the CTS compete directly with the G35, 3 series, C - class. The MSRP of this G is $40665. I can't see paying an extra $5 to $8 or $9 thousand for the '08 CTS over what the G is selling for. Plus, the G has received very good reviews from just about every source. I guess where I stand now, where I always have, is the CTS comes down to price. If it's priced too high I'll be driving around in a G35 this fall. If the CTS stays in line with the G then that's what I'll be in. I'm assuming this will be true for IS250 drivers and some 3 series drivers as well.

    Len
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    You need to remember that the G, along with the 3 series, is much smaller than a CTS. I wouldn't consider either of those with 3 kids, but I will consider the CTS. In terms of price, the G will be a better bet. You're not getting a 2008 CTS at 100 over invoice. And even if you did, it would be 4-5K more than you quoted above for similar equipment.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    I agree that most folks do NOT buy a fully loaded model of their object of desire.

    My point is that base price is virtually useless in determining the typical price.

    The apples to apples comparison pretty much eliminates the content for $ discussion and allows us to make a level playing field eval.

    If the fully loaded CTS compares "favorably" to the fully loaded 3 or G or A4, or whatever Entry Level LPS car it is up against, it ought to be a winner.

    What is actually acquired, like the phrase "your mileage may vary" is not unimportant, but Cadillac needs to come in at a price that is seen to represent "high value," not just high content or high anything else you might care to look at.

    Folks seem to be quite willing to pay $50K for a BMW 3 series -- they have the shortest shelf life according to our local Bimmer dealer. This is not meant to dispute the claim that the 328 outsells the 335, etc. The A6 3.2 outsells the more expensive A6 4.2 by a wide margin, too.

    The 300HP AWD CTS will probably NOT be the high volume model -- but we do need to know how it stacks up against the high zoot 335 and the other ELPS flavors.

    At this point, having tested both the '07 Gx and 335x cars, the one to beat would certainly seem to be the G35x. The CTS if it is $5K - $9K more will NOT seem to represent high value, despite the CTS's 5 series wheelbase similarities.

    The G35x also blows the Mercedes C class AWD models away -- if performance and content trump the three pointed star on the hood.

    Cadillac's CTS for 2008 is, for me, the MOST interesting and possibly desirable car to come out in the last couple of years (at its alleged content and price point.) If the balance of price and content does not come to be, it will have an uphill battle.

    The cars on the market from all parts of the globe continue to improve apace -- hopefully this spanky new CTS will not be state of the art circa 2005, unless it is thus at a nice price break.

    I am all over the place with the new ELPS cars, especially American models, since they seem to have about the same content as my 2005 Audi A6 3.2 (which is nearly fully optioned -- and was MSRP of $53,286.) A 2008 CTS AWD with the 300HP motor at a monthly lease price less than $650 (36 months and 15K miles/year) would be tempting, though, quite tempting. :confuse:

    Fun and confusing at the same time? Yep.
  • ortegaortega Posts: 57
    The G is NOT much smaller than the CTS. While we do not have the interior specs on the 08 CTS yet, we do know the new car's length is almost identical to the outgoing car. The track is a little wider, but generally I think interior volume will not change dramatically. Anyway, the dimensions on the G are as follows:

    Headroom with sunroof 39.1 inches (fr)/37.2 inches (rear)
    Hip room 55.1 inches (fr)/53.7 inches (rear)
    Legroom 43.9 inches (fr)/34.7 inches (rear)
    Shoulder room 55.6 inches (fr)/55.2 inches (rear)

    The 07 CTS:

    Head Room 38.9 in. Fr/36.9 in. Rear
    Hip Room 53.4 in. Fr/53.8 in. Rear
    Leg Room 42.4 in. Fr/36.2 in. Rear
    Shoulder Room 56.6 in. Fr/56.2 in. Rear

    As you can see, interior dimensions are comparable for these two cars. The G will definitely be considered alongside the CTS and therefore must be priced competitively with that car. Another competitor will be the TL - a full-featured car that tops out at around $37k and is dimensionally similar to the G and CTS (I checked to be sure).

    For those interested, the 3-series' dimension are:
    Headroom (Front)38.5 (Rear)37.5
    Legroom (Front)41.5 (Rear)34.6
    Shoulder Room (Front)55.4 (Rear)55.1

    Smaller, but not by much...

    My point is that the CTS MUST be priced to compete with these cars, because it will invariably be considered alongside them in terms of content, performance & price.

    Pricing the CTS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    Price an STS fully optioned.

    Not too many moons ago folks here on Edmunds said "pricing the STS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible."

    Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding: although the STS's MSRP has exited into the vacuum of space, the subvented, discounted and "OTD" costs have been somehow addressed via generous programs, discounts and lease subventing that is, to this day, going on a full throttle.

    Perhaps a $47K CTS will be "priced" OTD more -- shall we say -- down to earth?

    One can hope.

    Cadillac, however, does want to get to the premium prices with all deliberate speed. I think Cadillac would love the CTS to be considered by the majority of folks as a 5 series (true LPS) alternative.

    This one car alone will not likely make this transformation -- but it IS a good start. :surprise:
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,515
    “Dimensionally, the 2008 CTS is 191.6 inches (4766 mm) long, 72.5 inches (1841 mm) wide and 58 inches (1472 mm) in height. Wheelbase is 113.4 inches (2880 mm) with a front/rear track of 61.8 / 62.0 inches (1575 / 1585 mm).” – GM

    http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07naias/brands/cadillac/07_NAIAS_Cadillac_CTS_Design.htm

    [ 2008 ] Headroom (in / mm):
    Front: 38.8
    Rear: 37.2 = + 0.3

    38.8 / 986
    37.2 / 944

    Legroom (in / mm):
    Front: 42.4
    Rear: 35.9 = + 0.3

    42.4 / 1078
    35.9 / 913

    Shoulder room (in / mm):
    Front: 56.7
    Rear: 57.4 = 1.02 less !?!?!?

    56.7 / 1441
    57.4 / 1390

    Hip room (in / mm):
    Front: 55.1 = + 1.8
    Rear: 54.1 = + 0.3

    55.1 / 1400
    54.1 / 1375

    EPA passenger volume
    (cu ft / L):
    98 / 2775

    http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07naias/brands/cadillac/07_NAIAS_Cadillac_CTS Specs_rev121506.htm

    “The 07 CTS:

    Head Room 38.9 in. Fr/36.9 in. Rear
    Hip Room 53.4 in. Fr/53.8 in. Rear
    Leg Room 42.4 in. Fr/36.2 in. Rear
    Shoulder Room 56.6 in. Fr/56.2 in. Rear”

    When I was comparing the Caddy STS to the M45 a while back, I found even the ( somewhat larger ) STS rear seat to be somewhat less spacious that I’d expected, particularly in leg room – and clearly not as large as the M45.

    2008 STS:
    “Head room, front 38.70 (983)
    Head room, rear 37.90 (963)
    Shoulder room, front 58.60 (1488)
    Shoulder room, rear 57.40 (1458)
    Hip room, front 54.60 (1387)
    Hip room, rear 55.60 (1412)
    Leg room, front 42.60 (1082)
    Leg room, rear 38.30 (973)”

    I expect that the CTS will be arriving at dealers shortly after the 2008 STS – and once they are both available, I plan to test drive the V6 versions of each, back-to-back. ( I have driven the V8 STS on several occasions. ) The comparison of pricing & performance will prove interesting, I think. ( It looks right now like an STS V6, equipped as I’d probably buy w/1SC & PDQ MSRP = approx. $53.2K and invoice is $48.7K. )
    [[ Edit: I'd like to add PCZ - at $1,600 MSRP. ]]

    With the V6 in the STS now over 300 HP, adding the 6 speed automatic and weighing less than the STS V8s I have driven ( by 150 pounds or so – largely offsetting the NorthStar’s HP & TQ advantage, I’d think) this sounds worth looking at – and comparing to the top line V6 CTS.

    We shall see.
    - Ray
    Interested . . .
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    C&D tested the STS V6 in the current issue, the performance was impressive.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,515
    A GM description of this new V6 motor includes the following quotes:

    “ . . .272 lb.-ft. (369 Nm) of torque at 5200 rpm.”

    - and -

    “The result is linear delivery of torque, with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (maximum horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response and driveability.”

    Has anyone seen a published Torque Curve for this motor?

    5,200 RPM is a very high Torque peak – and I am wondering just how much credence to assign to the latter quote . . .

    300+ HP from 3.6L is impressive, but I also need my Torque down low in the RPM range.

    Thanks,
    - Ray
    Torque addicted . . .
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,515
    “My point is that the CTS MUST be priced to compete with these cars, because it will invariably be considered alongside them in terms of content, performance & price.

    Pricing the CTS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible.” – Ortega

    And yet . . .

    GM \ Caddy appears to be OK with the fact that STS and CTS sales continue to be ( way ) off – measured against last year. The CTS is off 38.7% - and the STS is off 46.8%. Large numbers, to me.

    And 2006 was NOT a ** stellar ** year for the STS, certainly – or for the CTS. The STS was off 31% in June 2006 vs June 2005. And last June sales for the CTS were off over 14% compared with 2005 June sales.

    Yet certainly in the case of the STS, the “Premium Pricing” ( IMHO ) that Caddy placed initially on the STS with the 2005 Model Year has been steadfastly maintained - in the face of what I see as rather dismal sales volume.

    So, in light of this apparent pricing philosophy – I see the possibility of the ‘new’ 2008 CTS being priced higher than some expect. I think that it therefore IS possible we’ll see surprisingly high MSRPs. I do hope I am wrong.

    Again: We’ll see.

    The initial reports from GM were that the 2008 STSs would hit dealers in June. And it appeared that 2008 CTSs would follow not long after. Mine has not seen either one, as of this PM. ( 2008 SRXs, but no STSs and no CTSs. )

    - Ray
    Waiting to see & drive & read sticker prices on production examples . . .
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    Given that the CTS went on sale in Feb 03, you would expect the sales to decline, especially with a new model a few months away. The June YTD numbers are not near as bad as the percentages you quote. Sales grew every year through 05 and fell back a little last year. If they get the 08 out soon enough, they might even outsell last year.

    I have no defense for the STS.

    Cadillac has consistently said the base 08 will start in the low 30's. Given that the base model has leatherette, I can see it coming in at the 33-34 range base and topping out at in the 47-49 range.

    Cadillac said late June for the STS and "fall" for the CTS. STS production started 6/11 according to reports, so you should see those very soon. CTS production starts either the 19th or 23rd of July, so they should be out by mid to late August.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    I tend to find your prediction tracks with mine. The CTS, regardless of what is done to move the cars out the door, will be in the upper $40's -- Cadillac wants to be the Premium entry level LPS and remain head held high within the LPS class.

    One way to do this, of course, is to raise the price. The fact, hopefully, that a $47K CTS may be had for a low lease price is just the strategy apparently used by BMW and at least ONCE, in my case, Audi.

    The phrase, that was then, this is now is not lost on me, but as I have related previously, we have two 2005 German cars, both with 36 month, 45K mile leases with almost no money out of pocket to get going. Her $47K Bimmer was $581/mo and my $53K Audi was $640/mo. In my case, I didn't even have a sec dep. We both have full maintenance too.

    I have priced these American cars [repeatedly] with a desire to lease them. Apples to apples, the American cars (and many of the Japanese models) at that price per month are, relatively speaking, "strippies."

    I am NOT a fan of outsourcing, but when an American "boy" like me spends $X/mo, and I can get an "entry level" STS or CTS or a fully loaded Infiniti, BMW or Audi, I cave and outsource my transportation overseas.

    More's the pity.

    Damn legacy costs. :mad:
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,515
    Thank you!
    - Ray
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Posts: 317
    Very flat torque curve, indeed. What will really be amazing is if the claims that this engine (with an 11.3 compression ratio) will run on regular fuel are true.
  • ral1960ral1960 Posts: 74
    I think sales are down because so many potential buyers are waiting for the 08 model. Since the trunk is still tiny and the rear headroom only slightly better, I'm waiting to see the wagon and/or BRX. There's always something better next year.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,515
    “Given that the CTS went on sale in Feb 03, you would expect the sales to decline, especially with a new model a few months away. The June YTD numbers are not near as bad as the percentages you quote. Sales grew every year through 05 and fell back a little last year. If they get the 08 out soon enough, they might even outsell last year.”

    At Lunch, I looked a little further back - at a couple of months in 2005 vs 2004 for the CTS:

    Sept 2005 vs 2004
    CTS 3,847 4,202 -8.4%

    Aug 2005 vs 2004
    CTS 3,610 4,365 -20.5%

    “I have no defense for the STS.”

    Me neither . . .
    - Ray
    NOT a sales or marketing guru . . .
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