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2008 Cadillac CTS

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Comments

  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    your comments dont make a lot of sense. the last gen G35 and IS300 were very good handling vehicles. There was no quantum leap made in handling with the new cars, just jumps in power and interior refinement. The old IS interior was a joke, but the handling was on point. Same applies for the G35.

    My point still stands, the current car is sporty, contrary to what certain MB fans would have you believe, and there is no reason to expect the new car not to be so. Other than the DTS Cadillac really doesn't make any "traditional" luxury cars that arent capable in the twisties. This is 2006, not 1996.

    BTW, the IS350s styling is many things, but graceful isnt one of them. The rear end neesd a lot of work, they tried to copy the proportions of the 3 series but didn't get it quite right. The rear quarter of the GS is similarly ungainly. I dont find any awkward angles on the '08 CTS.

    For those with no kids or no need to transport friends/coworkers the IS or 3 series is fine. However, there are plenty of people who like a decent backseat. This is one reason the TL and ES350 are so successful.
  • thebugthebug Posts: 294
    I really like the interior design in the current CTS. That was one of the major selling points for me. The exterior caught my eye, and then I saw the inside (truly sharp and cockpit like)and it was on.

    Ergonomically, it's dead on. I drive 100-150 miles per day (my car is my office)or about 3k/mo, and this design has proven to be the best of all my other vehicles as far as comfort and convenience. Most of the people that I encounter really like the design as well.

    In fact, since my CTS hit the office parking lot, I would say that at least half of the physician's that I work with have traded their foreign models and moved over to Cadillac. I don't know if the CTS design had anything to do with it, but it makes you go HUM MM....

    History has shown that when something this cutting edge/radical gets such bad reviews, it's a true sign that the idea is just ahead of its time.

    thebug...
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    Might as well consider the MB E350,M35, Lexus GS350 and Acura RL if you want to compare the CTS to the 5 series. CTS is still prolly going to be the cheapest amongst the group. IMHO, I don't see many buyers comparing the (future) CTS to any of the vehicles in this paragraph when they are comprising their short list- but then again- who knows.

    Good point about the size of the 3er to the CTS. However, I was responding to chavis' comment about how the 3er is only better than the CTS in handling. :surprise:
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "This and the uncontrollable urge to drag MB into everything GM, its really tired 1487. Nobody mentioned MB, thats your problem."

    That was the best part of your response. I just mentioned MB since you have held them up as the standard by which CAdillac and the rest of the luxury field should be judged. Hey, if you're not into MB anymore I apologize.

    "People have heaped criticism on the old car for years and yet when I said anything along those same lines I didn't know what I was talking about. "

    Exactly, I agree with that last part 100%. Other than the interior what major criticisms are you talking about? You continue to infer that the CTS was trashed by the press and I am in denial but you don't back that up. The media praised the CTS for its daring design, its autobahn honed handling and steering and the availability of a manual tranny. When it came out the 3.2L engine was criticized for being a little weak but that was addressed for 2004 MY with the 255hp engine. After that most complaints focused on the odd center stack design of which I have never been a fan. Please provide something other than your personal opinion if you are going to continue to say the CTS is such a bad car.

    "And I'm telling you that such a distinction doesn't mean squat because "American sedans" aren't the benchmarks in their classes and in most cases they're bottom feeders "

    Bottom feeders? LOL, I like that one. The Z06 is a bottom feeder? The Aura is a bottom feeder? The STS? wow.

    The CTS is the best non V cadillac ever. How about that statement? Oh wait, can't say that until the magazines drive it because it may only look good "on paper" as GM pulls the wool over our eyes once again.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    chavis was correct about the 3 series. It has better handling and 30 more lb-ft of torque in its top 6 cylinder engine. However, the base CTS outguns the base 3 series.

    The 3 series doesnt have more space, offer more value or have a superior interior design to the new CTS. If you want track ready handling and want a compact luxury car that costs well over $40k with options than the 3 series cant be beat. If you are more of a G35/TL kind of guy than the CTS is right in the mix.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I agree that the current CTS interior is perfectly functional and is actually high quality. It was a little austere for my tastes but the nav screen improves things a bit, especially because its so large and replaces the large blank area in the middle of the stack.

    The critics that slammed the CTS design when it came out where way off in their predictions. These are people who praised lame Lexus and tired MB designs and they thought Cadillac was being too risky by using the A&S theme. In other words they thought a "true" luxury car needed to look staid to be accepted. What they failed to realize is that Cadillac had done conservative and tried to have their products look like Americanized Lexuses and it didn't work. They had to be bold in order to draw attention to their new products. To funny part is that Lexus, Audi and BMW all revamped their stale styling (to varying degrees of success) after Cadillac launched A&S. I think Cadillac's design direction is the best out of the brands I mentioned. The Audi grille is growing on me, but I still do not like the Bangle 5 series and L-finesse has left me bored at Lexus. I have seen several LS460s and it is much more anonymous in person than it is on TV with the optional 19" rims. Its another conservative evolution of the same old LS design.
  • piasonpiason Posts: 55
    When is the 2008 CTS going to be available? It's been said from early summer to December?
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "However, the base CTS outguns the base 3 series."

    The base 328i has 230hp and the base CTS has 210hp.

    "The 3 series doesnt have more space, offer more value or have a superior interior design to the new CTS."

    I think your spot on about space and value but the subjective opinions about exterior and interior design will never be agreed upon by everybody.
  • thebugthebug Posts: 294
    Last Saturday, the local dealer told me that they would start taking orders early summer about June. In GM terms, that may be August or September. I want a November purchase date, so it works out for me.

    He said an order will take about eight weeks, so I'm looking at September. Want everything except the sunroof and nav. I just hope they are not attached to items I really want/need.

    thebug...
  • piasonpiason Posts: 55
    You are dead on with the pricing. The CTS interior/exterior design is excellent but if the price remains the same as the 2007 CTS, GM will have a winner. If the price goes up 1K most buyers will stay with the imports (Lexus IS250/IS350, G35, MB C class, BMW 3 series).
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    the most common answer is "Fall"; however, based upon past practice and the need to get this car out sooner than later, I bet we will be seeing them at dealers by late July/early August. We still need to read some road tests before the first sales. All of the posts with name-calling, comparisons to foreign brands, etc are useless until we have some tests.
  • thebugthebug Posts: 294
    The only way that I would not purchase the 08 CTS, is if it totally sucks, and I doubt that, that will be the case. I expect that it will cost a little more. Since the debut of the CTS back in 2002, we (the buying public) have asked for improvements. Rule of thumb, if a pound of beef cost $1, then 100 pounds will probably cost $100. It's a fact of life.

    Improvements/upgrades cost money, and I guess we get to pay for the upgrades. I expect the base price to go up at least 1K through natural inflation. And, I think they know the price range for the buying audience of the CTS very well by now, thus (if they're wise) the price should be placed within their reach.

    thebug...
  • topgun7topgun7 Posts: 409
    "All of the posts with name-calling, comparisons to foreign brands, etc are useless until we have some tests."

    Agreed. It is fascinating to read through the last 5 to 6 pages of the forum arguing CTS vs everythings else. Given that we don't know much about the car, it is hard to see where these folks has all the information or experience to argue about. There are always groups of die-hard customer for a brand. But majority of buyer will buy based on what they see, what they like and what they hear. The one draw back for Caddy is the resale value. Residual value for TL, G35, IS are all around 58% or so after 3 year/12k mi per year and 07 CTS is around 52-53%. Somehow 08 CTS has to bridge the gap (either lower MSRP, lower dealer selling price, more content for the same price etc...)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    your comments dont make a lot of sense. the last gen G35 and IS300 were very good handling vehicles.

    Exactly my point, both cases the last gen handles better than the current gen. So it's not unreasonable that CTS might be on this track too.

    BTW, the IS350s styling is many things, but graceful isnt one of them.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree here. IS350 in my mind is the most elegant yet aggressive (not the most) design in its class and the back end is just beautiful.
  • thebugthebug Posts: 294
    Post 223: My 03 CTS, if traded today would trade at 18K (high book) after four years, and that's 51% at about 11K miles/yr. They rate/allow 15K/yr or so at KBB. That's still pretty good.

    Your negotiating skills come into play here as well. I go in fully loaded when I trade, and I usually get what I want or close to it. Car salesman (admittingly) hate me for that. I purchase on average two cars a year. It's a sport for me.

    thebug...
  • topgun7topgun7 Posts: 409
    Agreed negotiation skill play a big part of the ownership cost (buying low, selling high). However, residual is what manufacturering is willing to take the car back for after a certain year. The residual and OTD price of a car that I can get in a particular market work very well for me to roll all the qality/style/power etc. subjective quality into an objective number that I can compare (after all the market decide what price I can buy a car for and sell a car in the future). And if I like how the car look and drive too, then I have a candidate for my next cars. I tried TL/G35 and sat in an IS (they don't have IS350 in stock for test drive). I like all of them a lot but the CTS certainly look good enough. Hopefully, it drives and price good enough to be a candidate for me also.

    I don't like BMW and Mercede in general becuase of the way they design their electornic interface (idrive and the like), our current Mercede is going to be our last one. However, both manufacturer respond to the market force by offering lease/cash support for slower selling model. One can get a pretty decent lease deal for BMW and Mercedes since their residual is set pretty high.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    That the 2008 Cadillac CTS is using an Aisin (Toyota subsidiary) 6-speed manual transmission? Got this from a post in the straightline blog.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    First off, the old CTS was praised by the press almost universally and was cutting-edge at the time it was introduced, but it had a lame interior. It felt like you took a Cadillac and fit a Chevy interior on it. "We love this car, but the interior is horrid".

    So a CTS with a "fixed" interior and a bit better all around? Of course the automotive magazines are eager to see it.

    Also, remember that the 2007 CTS was at the end of its lefe-cycle and still only a bit worse than the competition, who had managed to surpass it. The 2008 is going to be a jump ahead again - so it'll be a contender.

    ****
    Secondly, don't forget that many people who buy GM cars do so based upon rebates and GM cards. My father, for instance, has $3500 saved up towards a new GM car and with a little bit of incentives... He's looking at a CTS for under $25K. That's way *way* less than the competition, which is a factor for many people.(it's 29,900 at Cars Direct, and that's not nearly what you can haggle it down to, let alone a 2006 model) 30K minus $3500 minus $3000 or so this fall on a 2007...

    Consider a on-sale, GM card purchase compared to a Camry V6. A lot of people would jump at the opportunity to own the far superior CTS for the same price - or even a few thousand more. 28-30K after incentives is a far cry from $35K+ for a BMW or a G35. The fact that it's going to be one of the least expensive options in the segment can't be glossed over.

    Thirdly, he base engine isn't the pathetic 2.8L, but the proper 3.6, which is good enough for 75% of all drivers, to be honest. It's a good, VVT engine with gobs of power behind it(and very simmilar useable(low to midrange) torque as the 300HP version). What this means is that you can still buy a stripped-down base model and still get the same engine the upper-end 2007 had. Even if the price jumps up a few thousand dollars, it'll still be available for under $30K after the haggling, incentices, and GM dollars are factored in.

    Btw - the GM card is a fantastic deal if you are looking into a new car in the next few years. You can use it to rack up a few thousand off and it works like cash. Just tell them at the end of the deal and GM pays the dealer the incentive(good for both of you - works like cash). My dad has the $700 a year/5 years type but the new version has no limit(though less %age).
  • thebugthebug Posts: 294
    Supply and demand will be in order for this trade. I believe that a flood of 03 & 04 CTS's will hit the trade market at the same time. This in and of itself may factor a lower trade value. But, to the traders advantage, there's the market (the segment that couldn't buy new) of those waiting for the used ones in excellent condition. In my area of the country, it's pretty good.

    To buy a used certified 03 CTS from a dealer today, one would probably pay 23-22K out the door. I can easily under cut that price, and get higher than high book, or just at high book on a private sale if I wish to go that route.

    I already have a few viable takers on the CTS and other models because of my history of auto care. That being said, I will most likely do a dealer trade and get the price I want, because it's the thrill of the hunt. I usually do pretty good on trades. It has become an art I tell ya.

    thebug...
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    I had the incorrect information from leftlanenews about the availability of the biturbo sedan when the coupe was launched, sue me.

    Who here takes their car to a dyno? We can only base power comparisons on what the SAE presents. If BMW chooses to publish false numbers, that's their problem. If the car makes 320 hp, why lie? As I said, the IS and G35 have 3.5L engines that produce more than 300 hp and that is proven by the SAE. I'm not sure about the Lexus, but the G35 has even been certified under the new standards.

    "5 series has nothing to with this is class but since you mentioned it- it is THE true luxury sport sedan in its respective segment. Check what type of power and torque the 550i gets- no where near 273hp."

    Uh... what are you talking about? Read the press release on Edmunds. Who mentioned the 550i because I surely didn't.

    "BTW, to use the term "class leading" insofar as it relates to whether a car can be had in a sedan form is inappropriate."

    Have no clue what you're referring to here.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I'm not sure about the Lexus, but the G35 has even been certified under the new standards.

    Just make sure you won't use "incorrect information" on the Lexus, the IS350's 306 HP is certified under the new SAE standard. Since 2006 all HP ratings posted by the manufactures are SAE certified, that's why we saw a drop in TL's HP from 05' model to 06'.
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    Where have you read that the 5 series is destined to get the bi-turbo? I've never seen anything alluding to that fact.

    The CTS has a cohesive design. Call it polarizing but it carries common themes (this is true for the first and second generation models). The IS seems to have been an okay design until somebody decided to try and add some fake L-Finesse aggressiveness after the fact. I just can't get down with those door mounted mirrors and the front and rear valence tapers. It seems forced. I don't have beef with the car itself and what's underneath, just can't stand the skin it's in. Best interior and the best gauges in the business on that model (unlike the GS).
  • Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    I'll also post another interior picture for comparison.

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    "And I'm telling you that such a distinction doesn't mean squat because "American sedans" aren't the benchmarks in their classes and in most cases they're bottom feeders so saying that the CTS is better than the American status quo is pointless. If American sedans set the tone for a segment or were even considered in the top part of the class this boast would mean something. "

    Who determines what makes a benchmark? Auto writers certainly do not if you the buyer has a mind of his own. I would drive the old FWD Seville, new STS or current DTS any day of the week over any non AMG/M E class or 5 series (old or new). Are those Cadillacs considered benchmarks by anyone? Probably not but they are EXCELLENT vehicles and in 80% of driving situations that we might encounter, you'll never miss the razor sharp handling of a sport package equipped BMW. I was once told by Mr. Merc that the old Caddy's couldn't compete (because FWD) and need electronic "crutches" just to drive down the road. I guess that's why everyone uses an alphabet soup of electronic damping nowadays, right?

    Here's a some common traits of these so called benchmarks...
    1) Terrible value- pay more for less like standard vinyl seats, extra for metallic paint, no CD player, etc
    2) Cramped size. This is america, not Europe.
    3) Identity crisis- Buying a car built for glass smooth roads of Germany with 40-35 series tires, not trolley track ridden streets, pot holes and even cobblestones here in Philly.
    4) Identity crisis PT II- Buying a base model 325i or A4 with no options and 16" wheels and then saying American cars can't compete.

    This new CTS will hopefully have all the good that the Europeans offer yet still be American and not some "Me too" car like some of the competition.
  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    I believe he was referring to the '08 CTS which will only offer the 255 and 300+ hp versions of the 3.6L engine.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Counters for your common traits...

    1) Terrible value- pay more for less like standard vinyl seats, extra for metallic paint, no CD player, etc

    Agree with no standard leather and extra cost for metallic paint. However, no CD player? Where did you get this?

    2) Cramped size. This is america, not Europe.

    It has the largest size in class except TL and CTS. Yes, this is America and some of us prefer no-so-big sports sedans, especially entry level.

    3) Identity crisis- Buying a car built for glass smooth roads of Germany with 40-35 series tires, not trolley track ridden streets, pot holes and even cobblestones here in Philly.

    Not everyone lives in Philly. Highways in Florida are also smooth like the German Autobahn but too bad we have speed limit here. 3-series because of its exceptional handling is a very good choice for mountainous roads in regions like some part of California.

    4) Identity crisis PT II- Buying a base model 325i or A4 with no options and 16" wheels and then saying American cars can't compete.

    Agree that 16" on the 3-series is pathetic but one can upgrade for $15K more with the sport package. Handling is still standard BMW though.

    By the way, what defines the benchmark you asked? I agree it's not by reviews and sales numbers alone. However, when a car likes the 3-series being the class leader in both of those 2 areas then there should be little doubts to crown it the benchmark.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    The 08 5 series will be 528 and 535 - just like the 3 series - 230 and 300 HP.

    So the CTS on paper will be ahead in both categories.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    Yes, and for some reason it works a whole lot better in the CTS than in the IS.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes, and for some reason it works a whole lot better in the CTS than in the IS.

    Really, you drove the CTS already? Wow, must be the first person besides GM testers.

    Oh BTW, that 6-speed is only for the manual transmission and for your information IS350 doesn't have manual tranny so I really don't understand where was your comparison based on. ;)
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    3) Identity crisis- Buying a car built for glass smooth roads of Germany with 40-35 series tires, not trolley track ridden streets, pot holes and even cobblestones here in Philly.
    Has anyone around here driven the Autobahn lately - or is everyone going by the myth? A lot of it is speed limited (by signage or traffic) and certainly not glass smooth.

    Biker, who saw his first CTS on the A5 just south of Baden Baden.
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