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BMW M6 Convertible

Karen@EdmundsKaren@Edmunds Posts: 5,024
Take a gander at our M6 first drive and post your comments here.

First Drive: 2007 BMW M6 Convertible

Karen-Edmunds Community Manager

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Comments

  • m3guym3guy Posts: 6
    its about time BMW comes out with a SL competitor. Its funny how a car that gains 500 lbs and you get a better center of gravity. haha

    IMO this car is more of a grand touring type of automobile. its really to heavy to have "great" handling.
  • I don't work for BMW ... so I'm saying this because I believe it. Even if I did work for BMW, I'd still say it...

    Just because you guys don't like the F1 style shifters in the new M cars, doesn't mean that they're as bad as you say. You're just irked, apparently, because you are a bunch of manual transmission drivers over there -- fine, I can understand -- and BMW has decided to give you a treatment you don't like/understand.

    And ... did you give the F1 shifters on the Ferrari F430 a bad review??? Probably not ... everyone loves them. Same technology, different car. In fact, the F430 is even more limited because it doesn't have the automatic mode or the secondary gear selector like the M cars do (which I use all the time).

    I'm sure there is more than one reason they did this ...

    1) It's a 507 HP car. Most people don't really know how to drive a stick that well. BMW fully covers their cars ... It's a cost thing for them ... otherwise you novices would be burning up clutches that they would have to replace.

    2) The gears in the M cars are layed out so the transmission can shift them faster, in a pattern that would be hard for a human, and thus the car is faster ... it's a performance thing.

    3) The car is so blindingly fast that it's nice not to have to worry about the clutch and the stickshift when you're "getting on it" ... it's a safety thing.

    4) The 7th gear that makes it awkward for humans makes it good for mileage when you let the computer position the shifter ... it's a mileage thing. Consider that the gas guzzler tax is only 3000 on the SMG and 3700 on the manual. No difference huh?

    5) While it's true that the car might be a bit lame in D mode (or on shift level 1-3), it's good on shift levels 4 and 5, and outstanding on shift level 6 ... again, it's a performance thing. Show me one person on the edmunds staff who can beat me to 100 m/h in a manual m5 against m5 SMG m5, and I'll give you my car.

    So, until that day ... please lighten up on the transmission. It would be more professionally responsible for you to say "This transmission is a technical masterpiece, but we still prefer a true manual" than to beat the car up so much over this point.

    And besides that ... I got to drive a manual 2007 M5 the other day at the dealer. First of all, the modifications are ugly ... they look like the work of a high school student, and secondly, the manual detracts from the smoothness, elegance, and performance of the car.

    Lighten up on the transmission, will ya?
  • Id like to know more about you experience with the manual on the m5....Im thinking about getting the m6 with one and i am wondering your thoughts on the 500hp engine with one....thanks
  • I swapped out the '06 M5 after someone ran into the rear quarter panel for a black on black '07 M6 with all the options and carbon fibre trim.

    The appeal of the m6 is still a bit of the mystery to me. Being a former owner of an E46 M3, I was very skeptical of such a large sports coupe. The back seats are about as roomy as the M3's were, but the M6 has much less headroom in the rear and there is no third seat in the back, so all that extra space the car has went towards the front seats.

    Strangely enough, the car feels a bit more closed off and intimate up front than even the M3 ... but this is just an illusion. After a while driving the M6, try to sit in a smaller car and you'll definitely notice the lack of space. BMW just did a good job masking that extra space up front, without causing you to get lost in it.

    So, why wouldn't I just get a Porsche? Three-point-five reasons 1) BMW Maintenance and Warranty, 2) Trunk Space, 3) Location of the Engine... front instead of rear. 3.5) Though both can be daily drivers, I think the m6 is more of one. That said, the 997 GT3 is one sick beast!

    So if I was going to get a big car, why wouldn't I just get another M5? Because the dealer, a friend of mine, asked me if I wanted to go put gas in the M6 on the showroom floor :) How could I refuse?

    Before I even got behind the wheel, the first thing I noticed was the exhaust sound when the dealer fired it up on the showroom floor. It was just a bit throatier, and held the promise of being just that much more extreme. This definitely seemed to be a different car.

    When I got in, the look of the cabin and controls were all familar too (me being used to the M5), but they were also just different enough...

    I noticed the difference in driving the car right away. The steering felt much more direct than the M5, as did the brakes, and the power to the wheels. Yes, the SMG transmission was still a bit doggy if you accepted the S-3 default, but as soon as you took it to S-5 it was bearable. Like the M5, after 4000 RPM this transmission is so gnarly that it makes a little bit of suffering during daily driving worth it. People complain about the lack of a dual-speed-gearbox in the current M cars, and as great as DSG is, there's a bit of lag on the downshifts and it also just feels a bit removed from the driving experience to me ... like more of an automatic than a manual. While I sometimes disagree with the SMG's operation of the clutch, it still feels as if I was driving a true manual.

    My take on the SMG is that while I'd still probably prefer a true manual for day to day driving around the city, when it's time to drive fast the SMG is superb.

    I also didn't like the car's long nose at first, or the position of the driver relative to the car. With the M3 it always felt like the driver was more upright towards the front of the car, and sat over a small, potent nose. Here it felt like the spartan nature of form over function with the m3 and m5 (put only as much hood on the car as the engine requires) had yielded to styling just a bit.

    But after a while I figured that the folks at BMW wanted to give this car a bit of a feeling of granduer while driving it. After all, along with the 760Li, it's the most BMW has to offer. Besides, it kind of reminds you that a 507 HP V10 is sitting there under the hood waiting to pounce.

    OK, so what I'm really waiting for is the e90 M3. I'm pretty worked up about this car given that it's got all the new technology and aluminum suspension, and an engine that promises to be quite potent. All this in a small (albeit somewhat ugly e90 coupe) package.

    But after driving the M6 for a while now I'm wondering if my reaction to driving the M3 will be the same as it has been to other cars... I can usually still appreciate the beauty and or greatness of something else if it's, indeed, beautiful or great. But I often find myself wanting my M6 instead. And prior to owning the M6, I really didn't want to like the car that much. But it's won over my heart and mind ... and it really does love those corners.

    Too bad the car got rear-ended a few weeks back by a woman driving a jetta talking on her cell phone. Luckily for me the car, and myself, will both probably be fine. The hardest thing has been being stuck in a new E-class Benz for the past few weeks as a loaner car. GIVE ME BACK MY M6!!!
  • I have to applaud your "flexibility" in going from an E46 M3 to an E63 M6.

    Back last summer, my dealer gave me the hard sell on the E60 M5. I gave one a lengthy test drive while he priced up the trade of my pristine 2003 E39 M5. After 30 miles, I raced back to the dealership, took my M5 back and immediately confirmed an order for a 2007 911 Turbo. The E60 M5 was not a bad car, but with the (damn) SMG, extra weight, i-drive, etc., lacked the simple soul of my E39.

    A month ago, not to give up easily, I was given a couple days with my dealer's personal M6 when I had my M5 in for service. They "accidentally" damaged a rear tire and had to wait an extra day to get two new replacements in. I later found out that he just decided to give me two new tires as a thank you for a recent referral and used the ploy to try to coax me into the M6. Unfortunately, even with 2+ days and roughly 350 miles, I couldn't warm up to it. As a 4,000 lb "GT", it would be hard to beat at any price. But again, between SMG, i-Drive and the curb weight, it just didn't have the "soul" of the old M6 and 635i.

    Forgive me if I sound like I'm old fashioned - I was an original owner of one of the roughly 450 M1's produced by BMW nearly 30 years ago. So when I think "M", I have very different memories and expectations in mind. I frequently regret selling that car, but it went to a good home and is now with a private collection that gives me visiting rights. I'm not into garage queens and I would have driven it into the ground long before now.

    I wish you the best in enjoying your M6. Even if not my cup of tea, it's a heck of a car.

    P.S. You are right in your assessment of the 997 GT3. I drove one in Germany two weeks ago and fell in love. My 911 Turbo is a better daily driver with blistering performance and a token back seat, but the lighter weight, RWD GT3 with its 8,400 rpm redline is a car that every serious enthusiast would be lucky to experience.
  • Yeah, I think people either go one way or another on the M6 ... they either love it, or they wouldn't own it but still respect it.

    The M6 is a beast. I think that even if I didn't live in San Francisco, where owning even one car is an incredible pain ... two would be horrible ... I might keep the M6 in the garage. I'd just probably also add that GT3.

    My take on the 911 Turbo is kind of like yours on the M6 ... it's one hell of a car, but there's too much going on to make it a purists car like the GT3.

    First, there's the AWD system, which adds weight and pollutes the RWD feel. Then, the weight is nearing that of the M6 at almost 3500 pounds, which for the car's size and spartan interior is, no doubt, mostly spent on the engine and drivetrain.

    I dropped the old exhaust on my M6 and threw on a titanium one, and after that my car weighed in at around 3550. The curb weight on the stock car is 3770 ... not that much more than the 911 turbo.

    The transmission is definitely not transparent technology at lower RPM's, but the transmission is so good when driving hard that I wouldn't choose the manual in that car. In fact when I bought the M6, my dealer told me that there would be a manual in the future and I still opted for the SMG, which is a choice I didn't make in my e46 M3, as the SMG II was still just a normal transmission with a bolt on SMG module.

    This transmission was built and laid out to be SMG from the ground up, and is thus a better implementation of the technology. In fact, with the M5 and M6, I actually see the true manual as a compromise. The transmission looks like it was just thrown into the car as an afterthought, and you can't even fully disengage the traction control. Also, while the fuel economy in the M6 is already a bit low, it even gets lower with the manual option -- hence the $3700 gas guzzler charge instead of $3000 with the SMG.

    I'm not picking on your choices though, spiritinthesky ... just saying outloud the thinking I went through when buying this car and also sharing some experiences about it. My first car was a '60 356 so I was a porsche fan from the start, but it's hard to find a car from stuttgart these days that doesn't have turbos and AWD, and even though porsche has made leaps and bounds improvements in both areas, I still prefer RWD with a naturally aspirated engine.
  • "My take on the 911 Turbo is kind of like yours on the M6 ... it's one hell of a car, but there's too much going on to make it a purists car like the GT3."

    I would agree that if you are going to spend a lot of time on the track, the GT3 might be my choice over a 911 Turbo. Depending upon the layout, I suspect it would be neck and neck with the Turbo in lap times. But the feel of driving a 8,400 rpm RWD GT3 would make the experience more intense. The problem with the GT3 has always been its civility as a daily driver. I've never personally seen a 996 model with more than 15,000 miles on the odometer. My 911 Turbo has over 5,000 miles in less than 6 months - winter weather notwithstanding.

    Not to be picky, but I think you are a little off on your weight comparison. The BMW M6 has a curb weight of 3,909 lbs. Unless your factory exhasut system was made out of 1/2" think cast iron, the most you would have saved in weight replacing it would have been closer to 20 lbs, not 220! I doubt the entire exhaust system weighs much more than 100 lbs.

    The 911 Turbo, at 3,470 lbs is heavier than I would like, but nearly 450 lbs less than the M6 - with similar horsepower and 140 more ft. lbs of torque. Not really a fair comparison, nor was I trying to make one. The fairer comparison to the M6 would probably be the Mercedes SL55 from a size/performance standpoint. And in that battle of two ton GT's, I'd definitely take the M6.

    The $3,000 V10 gas guzzler tax is a bit of a disspointment. My M5 got socked with a $2,200 one as I recall, but I get in the 23 range cruising at 75+ on the highway. No gas guzzler at all on the Turbo, and I've hit 26 on the highway going down to Hilton head from Pittsburgh. At one time BMW was boasting that their V10 would be the most fuel efficient 500hp engine on the market. Not sure what happened between drawing board and production. Not that the cost of gas is a big deal, but as a pilot, I have a penchant for efficiency.

    As far as finding a Porsche without Turbos and AWD, the 997 model Carrera S Coupe is worth every penny, IMO. I almost bought one before going to the Turbo. At around 3,150 +/- lbs, it's easily capable of low 4 second 0-60 sprints - which will keep most everything short of a Ferrari 430 or Turbo in your rearview mirror, while also being a comfortable daily driver and nimble handling sports car.

    So many good choices out there! Enjoy yours.
  • tvspotztvspotz Posts: 1
    I've owned 7 big BMW's over the years starting in the 80's.
    The M6 is by far my favorite.
    OK, the transmission is a bit of a drag. My wife won't drive it (is that bad, or good?)
    But I love the exhaust note, the sheer power. I just drove a friends F430 over the weekend and you know, I think the M6 will be able to keep up on a road trip or just getting onto the toll road.

    Funny thing. I had a 645ci convertible. My sister in law kept teasing me that I was driving a chick car. And I was beginning to believe she was right. It was a serene experience on Saturday mornings on PCH, but even my wife's 750li could out run it. One day the 645 was in for service and I got the call that they happened to have a new triple black M6. Even though I took a bath, I decided to get out of my lease early as soon as I heard the engine. Didn't even need to drive it.

    It was like my 645 had been possessed by Linda Blair! Same basic look, same color, but man, that whole serene thing was out the window. The close rate on cars ahead got scary quick and I realized in short order that I was no longer driving a chick car.

    And you know what, I'm liking the fake double clutch thing it does when you down shift with the paddles.

    My friend paid 235k for his F430 (40 over sticker). For half the price, I think I'm having just as much fun.
  • Sorry ... i got the weight number just by going to the first result on a google search, which was from the car connection. But from the manual the weight is 3909 lbs.

    The fact that I don't know how much the car weighs shows that it's probably been much of a problem. Honestly, for a cruiser it's nice to have the spaciousness on the interior and the extra weight comes in handy when s**t happens like I get rear-ended.

    Actually, I think it smooths out the car a bit, and since they've done a lot to lower the center of gravity (as have I by lowering it) there's virtually none of the pendular motion that I noticed on the M5. True it's a super great car for the short bendies, but on those longer corners the car is amazing.

    If I wanted to turn the flame up a bit on my driving excitement, my car of choice would actually be the f430 (because of it's combined 12.8 m/gal fuel consumption) rather than the gt3, though I don't know whether I'd get the F1 or the manual. Probably the F1 considering the performance is stellar, which is interesting considering that the m6's tranny is probably one of the F430 F1's closer relatives on the market. Well, closer than the tiptronic or DSG.

    The exhaust I got was titanium and yes, the BMW's were heavy. If I recall correctly, about 140 pounds. I don't have an exact number for you because I sold it, but I've done some other things to my car and currently it does weigh in at about 3550 -- and with 507 hp this is nuts: about 7 lbs/hp. The 997 GT3 is about 7.4 lbs/hp, while the 997 turbo is 7.2 lbs/hp with the manual and 7.45 lbs/hp with the tiptronic S. Of course I barely put that to use much.

    As for the fuel economy, I feel good knowing that the pollution index is actually very low (this wasn't the case for the E46 M3). In parts per million, it puts out less than the M3, but it puts out more millions. Oh well ... actually I get around 22 on the HWY and 13 in San Francisco. Just to give you an idea though, I used to drive a Civic and in San Francisco I only averaged about 16. So that's decent for the M6.

    Like I said though, I can't argue with your choice in cars, spritinthesky ... the porsche is the embodiment of blistering, rear-engine, turbocharged, AWD german performance ... and a blast to drive. My wife loves the M6, and it turns a lot of heads because there aren't many on the road ... but on a day at the track I probably would take the GT3 over the M6 any day -- well any day my wife wasn't in the car. Really, she loves that M6. And that 13.7 cubic feet of trunk has come in handy more than once when she's been in the car and we've gone shopping.

    I do have one question for you though ... one apparent weakness to me with the 997's and the F430 were the warranties and maintenance. This might seem like a small thing, but it's really true that BMW's warranty service and maintenance plans are out of sight. No matter how hard you drive the car they'll always fix it -- no questions asked. If the brakes wear out they replace them. If the oil's low they fill it up, if I blow the transmission, they'll replace it or they might even give me a new car if there's a pattern... etc. This has been a MAJOR selling point for me on the BMW's and it's why I've stuck with them ... not to mention that they always put me in a 60k+ car when I take it into the shop and can't wait for it.

    I heard something regarding porsches and 1200 dollar oil changes and that even though they offer 4/50k miles, they're kinda picky about their warranty service. In other words if they can find proof of excessive wear they don't pay.

    With the f430 I believe it comes with a 2 year/unlimited mile year though I believe they offer more comprehensive coverage for a good premium. While I hope the people who buy these cars don't stretch their budgets so thin that they can't afford much else (some do I guess), going out to the car and not having problems is a nice thing, but having those problems covered painlessly is a close second.

    Still, it remains a concern of mine that with such a fragile and temperamental car, that there could be major problems if the manufacturer doesn't stand by it vehemently.

    My friend had a 996 turbo and it was in the shop 8 times a year. That same friend had a 2006 A4 and it was in the shop 13 times in the first 12 months. Sadly, he babies his cars too.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I've got to ask, if you can shave 359 pounds out of an M6 (3,909 to 3,550 ?), can you help me? I'd like to lose about the same amount proportionally. ;)

    Seriously, how in the heck did you shave the equivalent of nearly 10% of the weight of an M6? Even a third of that would have seemed like a physical impossibility to me without taking a chain saw to the back seats and every non-essential item in the car. For all of the weight saving efforts Porsche puts into the GT3 (removing rear seats, aluminum body panels, etc, etc.) it only weighs 55 lbs less than a C2S. Am I wrong, or didn't BMW offer a stripper "competition" version of the E46 M3 that practically took out the headliner and carpets for a total weight savings of maybe 100 lbs?

    As for your concerns regarding the horrors Porsche maintenance and service, I am pleased to report they are greatly exagerated. I purchased a new 997S Cabriolet in September 2005. I had to insist on bringing it in for an oil change at 10,600 miles last October. My dealer said, "not necessary", as did the factory rep. The first scheduled maintenance is 2 years / 20k miles! I said I didn't care and wanted them to do it anyway - so they reluctantly charged me $265 for the oil change (including 10 quarts of Mobil 1 and $40 filter) plus a complete check of all fluids, belts, etc.

    Other than rear tires which are nearing replacement my total maintenance costs over the first 18 months and 15,000 miles will be about the same as my former Honda S2000. Although the "major" 40,000 mile service will be a biggie at about $1,500. Not sure what kind of lemon your friend had with his 996 Turbo, but I - and all of my friends and colleagues - have had excellent experiences with the 911. Boxsters, not as much so, but still pretty good.
  • well ... the old exhaust, as i had said, was something like 140 and what i replaced it with a titanium one (which was about 60), I saved about 80 pounds. The other 270 came from just taking out stuff i didn't need, but to get it down to its lowest weight i have to also put in some carbon fibre front seats i picked up ... which is a pain both to do and a pain in my butt -- literally, so i don't do it often. It's not too hard for me to put the back seats back in in the car too. I have a carbon fibre panel i put in when the back seats are out.

    in case you're wondering, i have a friend with a high-end body shop so it costs almost nothing for me to experiment, and it's good for him because he uses the finished product to promote his business, but for the rest of you i wouldn't recommend going too nuts with the m6. I can put the car almost back to stock easily, and I do really like it that way. Sometimes i just get parts and put them on the car for the heck of it and then swap them out later.

    as most of you know, most of the exterior of the car was already geared towards weight savings by the m division: carbon-polymer trunk, rear and front bumper, front fenders, hood, and along with the carbon fibre roof and aluminum suspension and engine there wasn't much i could do (or wanted to do) on the body.

    truthfully, i'm surprised that they couldn't shed more weight than they did, but that carbon fibre roof does lower the center of mass by 1/2 inch, and along with the 30mm drop i did with a new set of springs, physics puts the car darn close to the ground.

    Honestly, like i said before, if i wanted a smaller, lighter car i'd get one. I wanted something a bit more practical because in san francisco, even if you own a house parking is a pain to come by, and i'm already parking for me and my wife ...

    The m6 is a pleasure to drive, extra weight or not, and there are so many porsches, audi's, and normal bimmers around here it's nice to have something different. Besides that, the car truly is a delight. My only complaint is that the roads around here make any nice car very sad.

    The only porsche i'm really, really fiending for is that new gt3. I'm not enamored with any of the others, except maybe the c2s. But since my wife loves the m6 so much I might get a gt3 before the year's out and give her a nice, black birthday present. Of course before i do i'll put the good seats (and the back seats) back in.

    my friend really did have a bad experience with both his porsche/audi products, and since the same 3 things didn't go wrong with it (or some technicality) he couldn't excercise his lemon-law rights. Not only that but they wouldn't even pick up the rental for him a couple times when his cars were in the shop and when they did they stuck him in something bad ... I'm not going to name names, but the porsche dealer was north of the bridge and the audi dealer was a big one in the south bay.

    whatever you drive, do it safely ... don't talk on the cell phone, and if you do watch for stopped cars in front of you. hopefully not too many of your fates out there will be like mine:

    2006 M5 - Hit and Run
    2007 M6 - Rear ended by someone talking on their cell phone.

    In 17 years of driving I've never had one accident (and I really do push it sometimes) and now I've had 2 in 6 months, both of which happened to my car when I was at a dead stop.

    I'm about ready to trade my m6 in for a really heavy vehicle -- the bus!!!

    happy motoring.

    p.s., yes a good way to shed weight on your car is to shed weight on the human driving it. I weigh 150 pounds and i'm 6 feet tall, but i swim 8 times a week and watch what i eat (no pizza, doughnuts, or burritos). if you really are serious about losing weight the best thing to do is focus on raising your metabolism.

    1) count the calories you take in each day
    2) figure out the average number of calories you burn in one day with a heart rate monitor and some old-simple-crude formulas
    3) don't let the number in (1) be greater than the number in (2) for a given two-week cycle.
    4) don't starve yourself ... your body will fight back because it thinks it won't be eating soon and it'll react by dropping your metabolism.
    5) try to eat lots of small meals and keep your blood sugar constant rather than a few large ones, causing it to spike all the time. don't both snack and eat large meals though!!
    6) get daily, areobic exercise with a tiny bit of anerobic thrown in for sculpting. find something you like to do so it's more fun than work, and get a good idea of how much you burn while doing it.
  • By the way get your numbers straight if you're going to call me out on mine ...

    According to RSportscars.com, the M3 weighed in at 3415 pounds an the M3 CSL weighed in at 3052.

    Weight M3 - Weight M3CSL > 100 pounds.

    Giving you the benefit of the doubt that your claims about the Porsche might be well founded (as the current 997's have been so welcome in the driver's world), I went out and test drove a 997s and 997 turbo, and was prepared to lay down the bucks if indeed they did pan out.

    My opinion? Well .. it was nice being in a lighter, more "mechanical" car for sure, especially after hauling around the weight of the stock m6 until I decided to do something about it. The m6's electronic gagetry, though great for its everyday luxury, feels sometimes a bit out of place on the hardest of driving.

    But the thing i noticed most with the porsche, was that big heavy rear end following behind me ... and threatening to swing out if I pushed it just a bit too hard on the bends. And it reminded me once again that, yes, the laws of physics still apply.

    ...the Cayman S though, it really delivers if you all are wondering. That mid-engine layout is great. The cornering is unbelievble. I just wish they had a bit more muscle under the hood.

    I expected a lot more from a push on the pedal with the Carrera S, but found that every time I wanted to "get on it" I had to downshift 1 or 2 gears. I'm not used to this with the 5500 rpm flat torque range of the M6-- I get a gratifying amount of acceleration even in 6th and 7th gears and only have to downshift a lot if I really want to go. I realize we're talking about 507 hp and much more torque in the case of the M6, but with so much less weight and a fair amount of HP, I'd expected the Porsche to be a bit peppier in the mid range. The M6's v10 is a high revving engine too so I was puzzled.

    In case you're wondering, I drove the 911 turbo too, for about 30 miles as I did with the Carrera S, and though it was an incredible "speed appliance", after a fair amount of seat-time in the car I couldn't find its soul. I was surprised to find, however, how much the addition of the AWD system actually helped the car. I really prefer the RWD layout, but in the Porsche's case with the rear-engine the AWD might just be what the Dr. ordered.

    There is one porsche that I have no complaints about ... my friend picked up a 997 gt3 last month. That car still suffers from that hideous rear-end weight, but it's a dream anyway and I might not be able to resist it much longer. I haven't owned a porsche since they were air-cooled but this gt3 might eventually make it into my garage.

    But for all but the gnarliest of driving I still prefer the M6. I could see the porsche appeal right away, it's a very romantic car that's easy to get worked up about. But there's nothing like cruising on the freeway effortlessly at 90 in the M6, the knowledge that you could do 200+ if you wanted to and weren't speed limited, and the bite the car has far into even the most gnarly of our public road system. All this and the car still can satisfy the most demanding of enthusiasts when it comes to road feel.

    I was doing 80 in the porsche on the test drive, and there wasn't one moment that passed that I didn't feel like I was doing 80. Every time the wind blew, or the highway changed, the car jumped and shook. I know some of you would call this being in tune with the road but there are plenty of cars that are far more stable, that deliver just fine ... I think it comes down to a light, rear-engine car with stiff shocks they've tried to use adjustable dampening to correct.

    My guess is that *most* of you porsche touting enthusiasts (though some of you might) won't even push your cars to the point where they really excel at anyway, so with all competition aside it boils down to what it always does ... personal preference.

    By the way car and driver gave the 911s an observed fuel economy of 15mpg on its initial test. My m6, while drinking its fair share of fuel to be sure, is about the same as that. I doubt any car would do well here in San Francisco, where I do the majority of my driving. I have a mercedes c230 on loan from the shop while my car's being fixed, and it's supposed to get something like 18/26 also and it's been averaging 11. Nothing like those starts and stops on the hills. My m6 gets about 13.2 in San Francisco and 23 on the hwy with the reduced weight. Of course I'm sure it would do better still if I observed the speed limits better ... Sorry CHP, in this car 100 feels like 55, I try to do my best when I can and even set an alarm for when I exceed 86mph, ... :)

    For me the M6, though less practical and almost as heavy from the factory as my M5, is still a great car that I'll be keeping for a while.
  • Interesting coincidence - I had my dealers personal M6 coupe again last Friday and Saturday while I had my M5 for new front tires to go along with the rears he gave me. He wanted me to "give it another try" as he has another customer/friend that really wants to buy my 2003 M5 and has offered a price well over blue book value.

    My assessment is even stronger after 2 days of driving all types of roads - the M6 is a large, heavy GT and absolutely positively not a "sports car", by any stretch. If that's your cup of tea, fine. But I can assure you that if you attempted to do keep up with a 911S in anything other than a 1/4 mile drag race, you'd be left in the dust. And even the 911S's tested 0-60 times of 3.9-4.2 would be a couple of lengths ahead of the SMG hampered M6. Granted, I've taken both BMW's and Porsche's performance driving schools, so I don't find the rear weight bias of the 911 nearly as restrictive as the obesity of the M6 and its extra body roll, even with the M suspension. You'd have to be drunk to call this car agile in the twisties. More like ponderous.

    Frankly, I was happy to get back my (merely) 400 hp, 6-speed manual, non i-drive, M5. It's more of a driver's car than the M6, IMO. As I've said, I've been a loyal BMW fan since buying one of the original M1's nearly 30 years ago. But the 6-series in general is not BMW's best effort - reminds me too much of the ridiculously depreciating 850ci - and even a great V10 in the M6 doesn't help much relative to the feeling that this is just an oddball car. If I really wanted a GT oriented sportscar, I'd consider the Vantage V8. It's performance is more than adequate for a GT, it's gorgeous inside and out, and a lot more exclusive. The 6 series "Toyota Solara on steroids" look from the back is the worst Bangled image in the line-up, IMO.

    Even my dealer wouldn't try to sell his M6 as a serious sports car. The one time he took it to Summit Point Raceway and ran several timed laps, his less accomplished son beat him by 3-4 seconds with his $32k Honda S2000. The 911's were practically lapping him.
  • Spritinthesky ... I'm not attacking either your appreciation of BMW's, or your assesment that the Porsche is a better track car. You obviously are not a fan of the current M generation cars, and I'd be silly to say that the M6 will beat a Porsche on the track given a) the current weight of the current M cars, b) the fact that most of the fastest times on the Nuerburgring are held by Porsches, or c) the fact that the roadholding numbers of the M6 don't compare to that of the Porsche.

    So, what it comes down to is arguing abou taste and preference, and whether you really want a "serious track car" for daily use. But if that's the case, then why don't you get yourself a Le Mans car and be done with it? Or a GT3 RS? Obviously this is ridiculous, so at some point you have to choose what's important to you and move on.

    Personally I'd take the Ferrari F430 anyway...

    And I'm going to take a leap here, but other than saying to yourself, "look ma ... I'm cool, I'm in a Le Mans car," would you even know what to do with one anyway? I wouldn't ... not without some serious training.

    What I can say is this. I have a dealer who is very kind to me and who will take me out of my current car and put me in a porsche if that's what I really want. So I took him up on his offer to let me drive the porsche for a while over the last couple of weeks because I was going to make the leap of faith that all that rear weight was worth it and jump into one.

    But honestly, with Porsche's low rent interior and 40 year old design that they seem to be merging with the TT styling that I so much loathe, is any Porsche but the GT3 going to get my dollars? Probably not. I took my dealers new 997 out on the freeway and it jumped all over the road, blew around in the wind, and threatened to swing out if pushed hard on a corner.

    I took a CPO 2006 997s out and it was a rickety piece of crap. At 70 the car felt like it was going 90, and when i stepped on it at 4000 rpm it felt like the bases were loaded and I struck out at home plate.

    I'm dropping that kind of serious dough on a car I'm going to drive every day, I want something that's sleek, smooth, and mean. At 100 the M6 feels like it's going 55, it's quiet and civilian on the inside, except for that exhaust note always reminding you that the car is ready to pounce, and the steering balance is near perfect (not to mention the car's weight distribution).

    About your claims of the M6's acceleration, I just don't think you know how to drive it. And besides, you can't compare the worst numbers for the M6 to impossible numbers for a Porsche 911 to make your point. I'm willing to admit that I don't know much about current Porsches, and don't have much love for them. But it's obvious the same is true for you and the current M6's.

    But since you insist on claiming stupid things about the M6's performance, you asked for it ... watch this video.

    First, a few words about it ... it was put out by the folks at M5board, from a track day in Europe where several people got together at an airstrip and raced from rolling starts. Why rolling starts? Because it's not as hard on the cars, it's less likely to give AWD cars the advantage off the line, and is more indicative of what the cars can really do.

    Secondly, the car being driven is an M5 (which is slower than the M6), but it has been modded. How much? Well ... no turbo or supercharger. It's been given some reprogramming and some exhaust as far as I understand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG0knICW_bs

    But these topics are always hotly debated on M5 board, and since you're a self-professed bimmer fan maybe you should join.

    Happy motoring.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    It appears that you've gone beyond irrational exuberance for the M6 straight to arrogant obnoxiousness. I don't really care to play that game, but perhaps you ought to get a few of your facts straight:

    "I took a CPO 2006 997s out and it was a rickety piece of crap."

    Well then, just where does that put BMW on the feces scale? According to JD Powers, Porsche surpassed Lexus in 2006 as #1 in quality for 2006. BMW? Oh, there it is, #28 out of 38, 13 slots below the industry average and 3 slots below that premium brand, Kia. Check it out for yourself:

    Quality

    And, speaking of feces, maybe you should just stop shoveling it with respect to your weight loss heroics and BS numbers. In fact, the M3 CSL is 243 lbs, not 363 lbs lighter than the M3 coupe. And it didn't get there by a few pieces of carbon and a "titanium exhaust". They cut just a few luxury items, too, like

    "Gone for good are the navigation and audio systems, as well as power windows, mirrors, and door locks. The plush carpet and most of the sound-deadening material have been excised as well, as have the foglamps, the tire-pressure monitors, the side air bags, and the air conditioning."

    So I guess now you are going to claim that your ubber comfortable M6 doesn't have A/C, power windows and a sound system? :confuse:

    RS Sports M3 CSL

    Automobile - BMW M3 CSL

    I happened to drop a friend off to pick up his BMW that was in for service at the Washington areas's premier independent BMW shop, BMW Excluservice. Lothar Schuettler is considered a BMW legend, having raced for BMW in the 1970's and worked for the Motorsports factory as an engineer before coming to the US in 1984. When it was still legal, he converted dozens of high end German models in the 1980's to meet US requirements for executives and celebrities. I asked him about your claim of having knocked 300-400 lbs off a factory M6. He just laughed and responded, "Bulls__t. Either the owner is an idiot for believing it or the shop is committing fraud for claiming it. Have them call me personally - I'll be happy to debunk this crap". Lothar's number is below, call him if you want:

    BMW Excluservice

    The fact is the BMW M6 is a very fine car, as is the Porsche 911. It's just too bad that someone lucky enough to get an M6 is an obnoxious ___. If, that is, you actually own one. I find it hard to believe that, with all your slinging of wild figures, you didn't know that the curb weight of the M6 was 91 lbs short of 2 tons before you supposedly bought one.
  • I am allowing myself to respond to this thread again, because it appears that two hot-headed people (and possibly one moron - myself) have gotten me into a hole here, I wanted to attempt to dig myself out to re-focus on the point. Additionally, I also now feel compelled to smooth out some of the rough edges here with the hopes of convincing the rest of the readers here that neither am I, nor are most BMW owners, as obnoxious as these three previously mentioned fellows would have led you to believe.

    The BMW M6 (and M5) is a great car. I don’t believe it’s the best car that’s ever been made, but I do feel that it’s the best performance car that BMW is currently making, and while it's not a "pure sports car", it's a sporty car with fantastic cornering ability, balance, and performance that is very rewarding to drive. It is solid, stable, and has cutting edge technology and refined luxury, and distinct (love or hate) looks as well. It also has a fantastic engine and anyone who is capable an interested in owning one of these cars will be impressed each time they bring it up to the redline. This engine has received numerous awards as international engine of the year:

    http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/winner.html

    While some of the M6’s attributes have made the car controversial in the minds of many "purists", I nor BMW never claimed that this is a direct rival to the 911. Though many sports car magazines might have compared it to the 911 (as have I), this is due to the fact that many consider the 911 to be the quintessential sports car. The M6 is, and always will remain a sporty luxury coupe with some fantastic sports car capabilities. And it does come impressively close -- and with a little modification (as shown in a previous video) can even keep up with the 911 turbo on a rolling start airstrip race.

    In the M6's case, here is some further evidence about just how fantastic of a car the M6 is, as well as evidence of just how fantastic the Porsche's are:

    http://www.evilpig.ch/photos/data/media/62/Rundenzeiten.jpg

    These are numbers posted from the Nuerburgring in Germany, the famed proving ground for fast cars. This was the quickest documentation I had at hand of these numbers, and I'm sure there are lots of other numbers out there as well.

    Assuming these figures are not overly biased either towards the M6 or the Porsche, the fact that the M6 could post 8:09 minutes around the Nordschleife while the 997 S Carrera posted 8:05 just goes to show you how capable the, admittedly, overweight monster is. I have read another statistic that puts the 997s at 7:59 with the Performance setting. And yet another one that puts the M6 at 8:05. Times on the track vary a lot with the driver, the weather, the tires, etc. But this same report puts the M6 faster than the E60 M5 and the E46 M3 as well, both also cars that I've owned.

    Being within 4 seconds of the Carrera S is quite an accomplishment on BMW’s part, especially when we’re talking about numbers on a scale of 8 minutes. If we take the best numbers, 7:59 for the Carrera S and 8:05 for the M6, that’s still impressive. Yes the 911 turbo is even more impressive still, but after I add the options I like that car stickers for almost 150k, and at that price I’d start considering the F430 anyway. For those of you 911 turbo owners on this forum obsessed with road feel, track times, and handling, you should consider selling trading your turbos for a GT3 or GT3 RS anyway.

    As far as the M3 CSL's weight goes, it appears some of you were more concerned about making me look like I don't know what I'm talking about than checking your facts ... not that it matters here anyway becuase we are talking about M6's and not M3's. I guess your goal was that if you could make me lose credit over my facts and figures about the M3's weight that you would weaken my argument??

    What was my argument, or the one you thought I was making anyway??? That the M6 is a better sports car than the 911? If you think this is what I'm claiming then I'm either not communicating clearly enough or you're not reading what I'm saying very well. And this, in the end, is what prompted me to try to refine the point I was making and, thus, post yet again to this thread.

    For the record, my numbers come from the same site that you cite:

    M3 CSL (3052 pounds):
    http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/bmw_m3csl.asp

    M3 Coupe (3415 pounds):
    http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/bmw_m3.asp

    For those of you not familiar with the M3 CSL, this car was not offered in the US, and as RSportsCars states, was optioned with A/C, stereo, and Navigation (not standard), and was only offered in an SMG II as well, bringing us back to the reason I originally took the time to post to this thread anyway ... the transmission.

    ...and my thoughts on the matter? The transmission can be a bit ill-behaved for every day driving, but brilliant when you push the car to its limits providing not only lightning fast shifts but two-handed control on the wheel.

    Having considerable technology in a car is something you either want or don’t. I love the Bluetooth integration with my cell phone, the robust navigation, the real time traffic info, the stereo (satellite, mp3, HD Radio), the keyless operation of my car (comfort access), the ability to customize many aspects of my car through one [IDrive] interface. Though the M6 seems a bit out of place at the track, I don’t drive it at the track so what do I care? I drive this car on the road, and on the road this car is a rock-solid luxury coupe puts a grin on my face every time I push it hard. That said my first car was a 1956 Porsche 356 -- it doesn't get much more mechanical than that -- and am seriously considering getting a GT3, so obviously I’m a Porsche fan myself. But I also realize that someone looking at the M6 might be looking for a different experience than a 911 turbo driver.

    In conclusion, those of you who think the same of me and my opinions before and after this posting I have a feeling have some other problems and will think the same thing no matter what I say. Maybe the few of you should spend less time correcting people and more time at the track, driving the cars you already know to be perfect.

    For the rest of you, I hope the information I provided here was useful.
  • Last weekend I went out car shopping with one of my senior partners who is in the market for a coupe or convertible sports car or GT.

    In addition to Mercedes, Porsche and Aston, we stopped by a BMW dealer to check out the 650i and M6. I have got to say that I was shocked. I really haven't looked closely at the 6-series before - and now I know why. The 650i and M6 may be very well constructed cars of high quality materials, but the design, interior and exterior, is horrible, IMO. And I am a big fan of BMW, especially the Motorsport models (my brother consults for their racing team).

    I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all of that. But the 6-series convertible looks like it came off the same drawing board as the Toyota Solara and Lexus SC from the rear end. And all of them look like they have posteriors that need to get on Ultra Slimfast. Actually, make that the entire car. The 6-series just looks like a hulking load and it's proportions, for a 2+2 are about as sexy as the fat lady at the circus. The interiors are hardly works or art either, losing their driver oriented cockpits of old and replacing it with i-drive, SMG and a totally uninspired layout.

    I know my comments will probably not be taken in the spirit I intend, but I would like BMW to get the word from loyalists and fans (like me) that they have really screwed up on the design side. The previous generations of M3's and M5's were great to drive - and were good looking, sporty driver oriented cars. But now, even the smallest 335i coupe they had on the floor look liked it lost any semblence of a sporty cockpit.

    Personally, I'd take a 1980's 6-series over the 2007 for looks. There is no friggin way anyone can think a 2007 650i, or even the M6, is going to be sought after as a collectible in 10+ years. We actually drove the 650i coupe to the Aston Martin dealer and parked it next to a Vantage V8. Talk about the ugly duckling next to a work of art. And I don't even like Astons.

    BMW, if you are listening, wake up and schedule an exorcism. No one makes a better sport sedan than BMW, but it's getting to the point that you need to be blind to appreciate that without throwing up.
  • Yeah ... I agree that this generation isn't as attractive as previous ones. Many people I know still find the design stunning but, for the first time, I've made cosmetic modifications to a car that I owned -- I added the AC Schnitzer rear spoiler, and I think it really makes the car.

    I didn't do anything to my E46 M3 though.

    Here are some pics with the spoiler:

    http://www.m5board.com/photopost/data/569/MG_1979.JPG
    http://www.m5board.com/photopost/data/569/MG_1960.JPG
    http://www.m5board.com/photopost/data/569/MG_1968blur.jpg
    http://www.m5board.com/photopost/data/569/MG_19652.jpg

    Some of the photos make the car look a bit ill-proportioned. That's mainly due to the fact that I photographed the car up close with more of a Macro lens. The car is currently in the shop getting a 1" drop via some H&R springs.

    Most of the time I don't care because I'm behind the wheel and not standing outside the car, but sometimes I do notice. And sometimes I think they "almost" got it right too ...

    You can't really compare it to an Aston though, at least the Vantage, because it's not a 2+2. I guess you can compare it on the basis of it being a GT, but I feel you have to lump 2 seaters in the same category and the Aston is just not compelling enough over the F430 or the 911 GT3.

    But then looking at the upcoming E90 M3 (photos were released within the last week) I'm starting to question BMW's direction as well. I was kinda hoping for a good M3 to move to after they'd gotten the bugs out.

    Though I do still find *most* of the M6 visually very applealing given the Genre (check out some of the other GT 2+2's out there and you'll see what I mean, though one company I thought solved the problem well was Infiniti with their G35.)

    Infinti solved everything pretty well, except for the interior that is ... what did they do, copy an 80's AIWA boombox? And then they messed the whole thing up with the new G37 ... it looks like a cross between a Tiburon and something ...

    Where are the designs going these days??? Maybe it is time to go back to something that they've been making for 40 years -- the 911. Call it modernism or cutting edge or even give your design strategy a name like "flame surfacing", what ever you want but the E46 was definitely a stunning car and very modern at the time.

    Still, the M6 is a wonderful car to drive, and though I didn't consider an Aston or a Bentley but I have driven both and prefer the M6, at least behind the wheel, to any other high performance GT car. But having owned both the E60 M5 and E63 M6, I'd say keep the sedan unless you really only want two doors (this is me) or really, really love the M6's design (I like it ... and am starting to love it, but it sounds like you don't ) :)

    My wife loves this car, and sometimes I get it in my head that it's ugly ... but then when I occasionally see one on the street I think WOW. I think it's just different, and takes some getting used to. It might very well be a beautiful, in a very unconventional way, car. That said, it could also be ugly in a very conventional way.

    About the bloating ... it's just the genre. It's a big GT 2+2. There's only so much you're going to be able to do to make a big car that accomodates 4 passengers with a nice trunk. The 612 Scaglietti (>4000 pounds) and the Continental GT (>5000 pounds) are like this too. I'm curious to see what Porsche does with the Panamera.

    My history of cars in the past 3 years has been that of competing luxury/practicality. I went from a 2005 M3 to a 2006 X5 4.8is, to a 2006 M5 to a 2007 M6. Now I'm considering taking my own advice and getting that Porsche GT3 and throwing practicality out the window.

    Unfortunately I need extra room from time to time and I can't convince my wife to get a big car so I can have a small one (no would I want to ... she's happy). Having more than 2 cars in San Francisco is a horrible siuation unless you're filthy rich, and even then ...good luck! I'm a man of some means, but even though I could afford to stable a third car, I'm not crazy. I was looking to buy a place in SOMA last month and for over a million dollars I only got two parking spots ... and after my car was parked there was about 2 inches between my car and the next one.

    When I bought it the M6 seemed to be the best combination of size/luxury/performance on the market in a coupe, and I still think it has no rivals. I do like this car!!! But that doesn't mean I don't have some stuff to say about it.
  • Sorry spiritinthesky et al for my ridiculously stupid defense of the M6. I got rid of it and got a Carrera 4S, and I now it all makes sense. The car is absolutely stunning and I wouldn't go back to the M6 for all the bratwurst in bavaria.

    And how are you all right, let me count the ways:

    1) it's a blast to drive
    2) the styling is fantastic
    3) 40 years of constant refinement is not a bad thing ... we get the benefit of having an "evolved" car.
    4) it's a blast to drive
    5) 997 is a great luxury car
    6) Gas mileage is great
    7) Insurance is 80 bucks cheaper a month
    8) It's a blast to drive
    9) It's a blast to drive

    My words of advice, get one if you can live without the back seats and the trunk space.

    There are a couple of things that it would be nice to see in the 997, Bluetooth cell phone and Auxilary input for audio devices, but I don't use the phone much in the car anyway and the ability to play WMA/Mp3 files in the Bose System (which sounds great, by the way) is a good workaround.

    For those of you looking to pick up an M6, get an M5 instead ... if you are going to take on the extra weight then you might as well have the extra space. If you want a convertible, save the 55k and just get a Boxster or spend a bit more for a C4S cab.

    The Porsche AWD system is astounding and it improves the balance and stability of the car while only adding minimal weight. Not only that but it pulls 0.99g in the turns instead of 0.97g like the Carerra S.

    Forget about the M6, unless you're in love with it. Besides, P-cars are better for the environment.

    Again, ... sorry for all the BS. I'm fairly young still, and like a young wine I haven't mellowed yet.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Unbelievable. :surprise:

    I'm guessing you are way too young to remember the TV show "Laugh-In". There was a regular skit in which a news commentator (Rosanne Rosanadana) would go off the deep end about why a previous news story was nuts, crazy, wrong, etc. Like, "I don't know why everyone is swearing about vacuum cleaners...". After 60 seconds or so of monologue, the anchor would finally interupt and point out that the previous news story was about the "Hoover Dam", not "Damn Hoovers". To which she would sigh and reply, "Oh. Nevermind". :)

    I hope you enjoy your 911 C4S. You seem to change expensive cars more frequently than I uncork $40 bottles of wine.

    But, just for the record, I took out a C4S Cab while my C2S was in getting new rear tires installed a few weeks ago. Exceptional car, but I still prefer the lighter feel, more nimble and quicker RWD than AWD version. I think you could toss a coin and find half of Porsche enthusiasts on one side and half on the other regarding AWD vs. RWD. Turbo vs. GT3. Cab vs. Coupe. Base vs. S. The beauty is, there's one for everybody. Enjoy yours.
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