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Lexus LS 600h/600h L

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    Even so I have driven Hybrids for the last 7 years ( 2000 Prius, 2005 Prius, 2007 Camry Hybrid, Rx 400h, GS 450h

    Out of curiousity what kind of mileage were you able to get from the GS450h? No one has posted on GH. I believe one poster here mentioned getting about 20MPG with his GS450h. It is hard to imagine the LS600h would get as good as the GS450h.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Is to spend a week with the car, under all driving situations, but that obviously can't be done on a test drive.

    Given the new EPA MPG tests, and the size and weight of the 600h, factoring in performance testing by Edmunds, 20-21 MPG sounds about right. Expecting more out of a 400HP car that weighs over 50000 lbs. seems desperate. Maybe if you live in NYC, you might get to 25 MPG.

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    If the guy who did the review has a negative bias like that then the review can be thrown in the garbage.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    I would think if the car exudes the kind of performance and luxury that Lexus intends, that any bias would be overcome by ecstasy.
  • hendjazhendjaz Posts: 155
    "Out of curiousity what kind of mileage were you able to get from the GS450h?"

    As I recall in my prior 450h in mostly city/suburban driving I got about 22-24 mpg which I thought was very good given the significant gain in performance from the hybrid. Driving the same routes in a prior Acura RL I got more like 16 mpg and in current LS 460L get about 17 mpg (this will increase as the engine gets more broken in) over the same routes. I personally was very satisfied with the performance/mpg boost and balance in the 450h but the Edmunds report raises concerns about whether that same boost/balance will be achieved in the 600h.

    We'll have to wait until some tests come out on real production 600h cars to see if there is a more significant performance/mileage difference between the 460L and the 600h as this early review indicates not.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    is quite a performer, with 0-60 in 5.7, so a 5.5 in the 450h is not much to crow about. C&D has tested both.

    DrFill
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    Doc,, I would think that a buyer of the Lexus super car, would primarily drive it in the city, and would appreciate the solid feel and flawless acceleration to a reasonable speed....Only on very rare occasions have I seen any high end car trying to race or anything....For a person who is not trying to impress anyone, there is a need for a quiet luxurious car in the city...I did hope the Lexus H would give higher milage, but it didn`t ..I does deliver on the other front though....Tony PS Today driving back from the mountains I was behind a Bentley---a little dated---and it was just all over the road and floating up and down terrably...A beautifly crafted car, but completely out of it`s element...A city car for sure..
  • Car&Driver in their "short take" on LS600hL got 0-60mph in 5.4 seconds, and more impressive,its midrange acceleration 50-70 in just 3.1 seconds and a quarter mile of 13.8 seconds.
    After a week hard driving, they got 20mpg, not bad.

    I predict the official specifics will be curb weight <5100lbs, 0-60 in 5.2s, combined FE 23mpg, midrange acceleration 50-70 in less than 3.5s.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    On their pre-production 460L, they got 6.2, the slowest test I've seen, so that is a large improvement.

    It would behoove Lexus to sell it's efficiency hard against 760iL and S600, which should be significant, to the tune of 30%.

    An S600 is about a second faster. With a larger trunk. But costs $30k more.

    Lexus has mentioned 0-60 in 4.9. Preliminary EPA is 22/20.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Cyclone4 -

    My friend, you do not need to be depressed. The way to cheer yourself up is to get an LS460L, fully loaded, and enjoy the money you will save. The truth of the LS600hL is out now.

    I have previously warned you and ljflx. I am glad that lj got the LS460L. He did the right thing, without a doubt.

    Eventually, everyone will will see that the LS600hL is as portrayed in the Edmunds article. Resale might be a factor, and the extra cost is obviously a total waste. Eventually, the car will be discontinued, only to be replaced by something that REALLY is a breakthrough, instead of the hype.

    To be honest with you, the LS600hL is even worse than I had anticipated in a number of areas.

    I thought the fuel economy would be a little better than it is likely to be rated. Only 1 city MPG better than the LS460 and only 2 city MPG better than the LS460L and 5 HWY MPG WORSE than the LS460 and LS460L. This means that the average fuel economy of the LS600hL hybrid sedan will be WORSE than its LS460 brothers.

    Add to that the fact that the acceleration of the LS600hL is one tenth of a second SLOWER than the LS460 and LS460L. It weighs in at an OBESE 887 lbs. more than the LS460L!

    The LS600hL V-8 delivers only 9 more HP than the LS460 and LS460L V-8!! With the added electric motors, the total HP is only 438, and with that extra 887 lbs. of FAT, the car is ultimately SLOWER and burns MORE gas, not less.

    Those 887 lbs of AWD and hybrid electronics FAT, come at a ridiculous price tag. The Edmunds test car priced in at $111,715.

    And there's more to getting less. It seems the trunk size of this LS600hL is 35% SMALLER than the trunk in its 460 brothers, at a mere 11.7 cubic feet.

    Exclusive you might think? Think again. Beyond the powertrain fat, there is essentially no option that can't be ordered on the LS460L.

    God bless Edmunds for telling the truth about this vehicle!

    I am once again very glad that ljflx got the LS460L instead of waiting in line to waste his money on an LS600hL. (Of course he could have gotten the Mercedes S600, but that's another discussion. ;) )

    Seriously, Cyclone4... do the smart thing here. I can't imagine ANYONE here or anywhere else that wouldn't understand the smart reasoning to get a fully loaded LS460L. Afterall, if you truly love this new LS, that's the smartest way to get it. It's now even more obvious than before... and frankly, I already thought it was darned obvious. Now it's common knowledge!

    Good luck!

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    in every case I have been able to exceed the EPA mileage estimates on a regular basis

    ANYONE can do that... but who would want to? Gosh, it's sure no fun when you can't put the pedal to the metal anymore.

    I've squeezed ridiculous fuel economy out of every car I've ever owned, just to see what was possible... but I would NEVER actually spend the majority of my time driving like I am pinching every penny of gas like some sort of scrooge who can't get out of his own way! God help us from THAT. Heck, you can squeeze high MPGs from an LS460L just as easily... in fact, EASIER on the highway.

    Any normal driver isn't going to get any significantly measureable advantage in terms of fuel economy from that LS600hL in comparison to an LS460L. The LS460L, fully loaded, is the car to get.

    The money saved will put gas in the LS460L for the life of the car! And you can still drive it with your foot hard on the gas once in a while, and actually enjoy some spirited driving! (instead of driving like a penny-pinching grandma) ;)

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,284
    Yes, I am very disappointed about the gas mileage factor. Obviously, I can afford the extra cost of fuel, but as I stated before, what is the purpose of getting a hybrid if it does not give you both real good gas mileage and performance? I think the performance will probably turn out to be just fine once they test a production model.

    BTW, the major reason, I have not ordered the LS460L to this point is because, I really want AWD for winter driving. However, I have heard some state, that the LS460L has been doing great in snow and ice with all season tires. The major reasons they give for this improvement is due to the better breaks and stability control with the LS460L as opposed to the LS430.

    I am about to pull the trigger and cancel my order for the LS600HL. I am just astounded how my mood has changed after the Edmunds review and the EPA gas estimate. I have gone from pure ecstasy to depression as I previously posted. However, I am now putting it behind me. What I will probably do is now wait for the 2008 LS460 and hope for AWD. But even if it does not I imagine there will be a few minor changes/improvements over the 2007 model year.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Cyclone4, I also applaud your decision. Hybrids have never made sense to me in any form. This one appears to be some sort of statement that Lexus is making...but at the expense of those buying the car. They are smart to only be building 2,000 of these things.

    Wait for 2008. All wheel drive probably...diesel maybe. But diesel would be a real stretch by 2008.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • hendjazhendjaz Posts: 155
    "It seems the trunk size of this LS600hL is 35% SMALLER than the trunk in its 460 brothers, at a mere 11.7 cubic feet."

    This is an incorrect statement. The trunk of a similarly equipped LS 460 is 12 cubic feet so the trunk of the 600h is only .3 cubic feet smaller. Not enough difference to even blink at. Remember, the Edmunds review is of a preproduction vehicle and it didn't even give consideration to the differnce in mileage data between 07 and 08 models since the rating system changes for all 08 models. As with the Car/Driver mag early review of a preproduction 460, there are some credibility issues in this first review of the 600h. Better to pass judgment when more information and reviews of the production vehicles become available.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    The best way to get over the depression is go pick up the LS460L in the color you like with the options you like. I am sure you will love the car. In a couple years if Lexus continues to build a luxury hybrid you will be able to get one just as you like it without the compromises you were being offered. By then they will be using batteries that do not weigh as much and give the car the performance they are not able to get with the current configuration. One more unfavorable review and they may not release the LS600h at all.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    The trunk size on the LS460L is dependent on options. If you want all the amenities inside you will lose a lot of trunk space. Without the executive package the trunk is 18 Cu feet. about right for a luxury car.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    You are a very smart fellow, and I am honestly glad for you that you are seeing this for what it truly is. I suspect you could afford to do anything you really want here, so I still recommend that you go get a fully loaded LS460L in your favorite color. If you really believe that AWD is something you prefer to have, and that Lexus will offer it next year, then I suppose your patience could possibly be rewarded, by there is no guarantee at this point in time. Either way, you have time on your side.

    Your rational thinking has gained you much credibility here in these forums as far as I am concerned.

    :)

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,284
    BTW, the official specs for the LS600HL are scheduled for release to the public today. Has anyone seen them yet?
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,284
    Len,

    Are you now more certain that you made the right choice by ordering an LS460L with the options you want? The reason I ask is because last week you were wavering that perhaps you should have ordered the LS600HL. You were actually thinking of cancelling your order and try for the LS600HL.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    An S600 is about a second faster.

    That's BIG, especially to someone who is willing to indulge at these prices. I wouldn't be surprised if the LS 600h L doesn't appeal to even one S600 buyer or potential buyer.
  • Let's see what others get. The best is the 760Li rated combined 17mpg by the old rules.

    Under the 2008 EPA rules:
    LS600hL AWD 21mpg
    BMW 760Li RWD 15mpg at best(estimated), LS600hL is about 40% more fuel efficient
    S-class 600 RWD 12mpg at best(estimated), LS600hL is about 75% more fuel efficient

    What is more, "The LS 600h L will also carry a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) rating, emitting nearly 70 percent fewer emissions than the "cleanest" of its competitors."

    Why do people think that the LS600hL is not a big achievement?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Cyclone4 - Just for your information, I have two neighbors that are off-the-charts wealthy. One is a bonafide multi- billionare (with a b), and the other a multi, multi-millionaire (hundreds of m's).

    BOTH of these gentlemen have taken delivery of the loaded LS460L.

    For gosh sakes, if you like the LS... the LS460L, loaded up with all the goodies, is actually the smartest choice of ANY LS EVER MADE!! It is obvious... even to this Eurocar fan. ;)

    I post this to you with the highest respect, as I would to Len.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The LS460S is already ULEV, and that's nothing to scoff at. Should the LS460L buyer wish he spent a TON more money to go from ULEV to SULEV? It's absurd.

    If someone only cares about SULEV, they can get a Prius or other hybrid... it's no longer a big achievement that should carry a giant price tag.

    The LS460L gas mileage rating is very, very good, and will in fact do better than most of the competition, including the LS600hL as well!!... especially on the highway!!

    It's a no-brainer.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Cyclone,

    I would hardly let the Edmunds review bother me since it is a lone review at this point authored by a guy who is against hybrids from what I've read. I also think anyone thinking the LS600HL is on it's death throes because of this review is jumping to a conclusion that will be proven wrong.

    I did call my dealer to inquire about the LS600HL but forget it. They are taking deposits for year two sales at this point.

    You need to do what you feel is best. If you're not excited about a product you shouldn't buy it. For me there is no risk if I went with it as I lease. If you go that route then figure it's about 15K more than an $82K LS460L over 3 years. I don't lose sleep over $5K a year so I hardly think the car is a financial risk. Likewise the buyers of this car will look at it very similarly IMO and I still see this car being a celebrity hit.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    Where did you find the EPA rating for the LS600h and LS460 models? I cannot find the emissions ratings for either car. If the LS600h is rated at a combined 21 MPG it is 25% worse than the CAFE standard. If you buy a Luxury car that will get you from 0-60 in the fastest time, why even consider fuel economy or the environment. Even the GS450h is a gas hog compared to the bigger Camry Hybrid. Living in Luxury is not sound environmentally. I don't care if you are Bill Gates or Al Gore. To think people can buy their way out of over indulgence is crazy. Acting like an LS600hL is somehow environmentally better than an S600 is a joke. Look at all that went into building both cars. And I will bet the Lexus loses the pollution race.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Why do people think that the LS600hL is not a big achievement?

    You can make a small case for the green aspect although I think it is weak if someone is truly environentally conscious. In terms of comparing it to the LS 460, consider the following which comes from the Edmunds report:

    "Truth be told, for those who want a socially responsible luxury car, the LS 600h L isn't even the best choice at the Lexus store. The slightly smaller GS 450h is also a hybrid, but uses a V6 instead of a V8 and consequently gets better fuel economy &#151; an EPA-rated 25 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway. An argument can even be made that the base LS 460 is the "green" LS model. It's simpler to assemble, uses fewer energy-intensive parts, should be easier to recycle at the end of its life, and gets 19 mpg city and 27 mpg highway."

    IMO, to come up short of the LS 460 in this regard and at $43K more is no real accomplishment. Don't be surprised if this aspect alone is the subject of much derision. How ironic and ridiculous is it that you can drive solo in the HOV lanes with the LS 600h L and not a Civic or Corolla?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    As has been stated, it is MUCH more efficient than any comparable German, and is only MARGINALLY more expensive than a comparably equipped LS, plus adds AWD.

    D-man, 1 second 0-60 is HUGE! :surprise:

    But $30k is also HUGE. And 75% more efficient is HUGE as well. :surprise:

    That the 460 will get somewhere near the same economy is fine, but not necessarily relevant.

    AWD would drop the 460's economy 2-3 MPG, as would the extra 50-60 HP the 600 has. So I don't see them as comparable.

    The LS being the better value is not the point. People don't spend 100k looking for great value. :confuse:

    One test doesn't decide if the 600h is useless. More information is needed. IL did a good job, but there will be other tests.

    There is no 460 AWD to compare. There is no 440HP LS460 either. The 600h is a step up, whether people accept it or not. :blush:

    And a fully loaded LS460L for 100k will not do much better than 21-22 MPG anyway. So at worst it's a wash. And the 600 has more power and AWD.

    A stripped 460 is not comparable to a 600h. Let's keep one foot on Planet Earth.

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,284
    On the Edmunds review they have posted a lot (not all) of the specs. The EPA estimate is there and it is listed at 22 city and 20 highway. BTW, The Car Connection review is more favorable than the Edmunds review. However, the still very disappointing aspect to me is the fuel economy. They got 18 mpg combined. For a lot of people that buy this kind of a vehicle this is not a big deal, but to me it is a BIG deal. A hybrid vehicle should be able to get a lot better gas mileage than this.

    Even though I absolutely love all the technological marvels and incredible comfort features in the LS600HL, the lousy gas mileage is a deal killer for me. As I stated on a previous post, I was willing to compromise on the smaller trunk, but I cannot compromise on the gas mileage issue.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    BTW - looked at from a business standpoint the LS600HL is already a hit for Lexus. It has brought a lot of attention to the car and more so the brand and is part of a bigger image thing. If Tag has two very wealthy neighbors that have dropped $95k on the LS460L it shows you the whole strategy of Lexus to get the eyes of the bigger(est) income group - is working. Looked at even further if Lexus sells it's 2000 LS600HL's easily (they'd proibably sell 3K units with no problem) then they have made 33% of A8 US sales with a car that costs 25-30% more and one that is not lease discounted.
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