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Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

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  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Hybrids better choice per Toyota

    quote-
    Reuters reported that Toyota Motor Corp.'s top engineer said on Monday that diesel-powered vehicles that would clear strict clean-air regulations in the United States would be too pricey to be worth the fuel savings.
    "I won't deny that we might be offering a diesel in the United States some time in the future," said Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, who overseas Toyota's research and development.
    "But right now we think hybrids are much more cost competitive," he told reporters on the sidelines at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
    Domestic Japanese rivals Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. have both said they were preparing a clean diesel powertrain for launch by the end of the decade in the United States, which is due to introduce the strictest diesel emissions regulations in the world soon.
    But with the particulate filter traps and other added components needed to clean tailpipe emissions, Takimoto said the likely price premium on the cars would not justify a choice over hybrids for now, at least in the United States.
    Toyota, a relative laggard in diesel technology, in November tied up with diesel-savvy Japanese truck maker Isuzu Motors Ltd. in an attempt to catch up, but Takimoto said a roadmap on how to proceed was wide open.
    -end quote

    Interesting times. :confuse:

    Toyota states that diesel technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings.
    Nissan states that hybrid technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    moparbad says, "Toyota states that diesel technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings. Nissan states that hybrid technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings."

    Who you gonna believe?

    A. The company which has sold about 800,000 hybrids worldwide, or
    B. The company which has sold, um, ZERO hybrids worldwide?

    :shades:
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    larsbWho you gonna believe?

    A. The company which has sold about 800,000 hybrids worldwide, or
    B. The company which has sold, um, ZERO hybrids worldwide?


    I'm going to believe Honda, which is going to soon offer more diesels than hybrids in the US, dropped the Insight hybrid, will be eliminating the Accord hybrid, and sells more diesels worldwide than hybrids.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Several thoughts have been generated by this post:

    We need to look at the REASONS these things are true.

    1. Honda dropped the Insight not because they don't like "hybrids" but because it was a "proof of concept, HA HA we beat everyone else in the USA to a hybrid car" vehicle, and as such it was not a valid money-making vehicle. It's the oddball of the hybrids - very limited use 2-seater with quirky looks which they knew would never sell in large volume but STILL got the point across that hybrids could be viable cars. It is not being dropped because "Honda does not like hybrids" - that's ridiculous.

    2. The HAH is getting dropped because they overcharged for it and tried to make it a "muscle hybrid" and did not put enough into the MPG side of the equation. ALSO - they wanted the industry first "6-cylinder hybrid" and they got it. Again - not dropped because Honda does not like hybrids, but because this particular car does not sell well because of how they put the whole package together.

    And virtually every carmaker sells more diesels worldwide than hybrids - that's not news, but market reality because there are so many diesels available and so few hybrids (USA excepted of course because of clean-air regs.)

    Hybrid sales in the USA were up 22% in 2006 to around 251,000 vehicles. Death Knell Postponed. :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    when you posted this link to the diesel forum I noted the same comment as you did here. Curious now that Toyota feels that hybrids are more cost effective - to them - at this point.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    GM could OWN the hybrid market by now !!! LOL !!

    In this 1969 Popular Science article, 2 Editors get a chance to check out GM’s new Pinto-Vega-looking XP-883 hybrid-drive commuter car, and love it.

    As far as I know, GM never dispatched (then withdrew and crushed) a test fleet like they did with the wildly popular EV1 in California.
    PopSci Says in 1969:

    “It’s the best low-emission small car proposed yet, and has both a gasoline and an electric motor.”

    “With all-independent suspension, front-wheel drive, a low center of gravity, and wide track (49 inches), the XP883 should be great fun to drive. But whether, and when, you’ll drive one is something that the GM chiefs haven’t made up their minds about yet. ”


    image
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,863
    "In this 1969 Popular Science article, 2 Editors get a chance to check out GM’s new Pinto-Vega-looking XP-883 hybrid-drive commuter car, and love it. "

    Looks more like a '74 AMC Gremlin to me... :surprise:
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    quote-
    "The cap should be raised for us to allow us to expand," Jim Press, president of Toyota Motor North America, said in an interview at the North American International Auto Show here. "Demand for Prius declined when there was a step down in hybrid tax credits. We need to have a certain volume to get the mainstream in for economies of scale."
    -end

    Toyota wants government support to prop up the demand of hybrids.

    Hmmmmm.......poor Toyota.....what's next...tax credits for Tundra's? :blush:
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    They are just the FIRST COMPANY TO REQUEST IT since they hit their cap early due to, um, the fact that they are the NUMBER ONE HYBRID COMPANY IN THE WORLD.

    The other carmakers will also complain when and if THEIR cars use all the tax credit because of SALES SUCCESS.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    "People want economy and they will pay any price to get it."

    - Lee Iacocca


    ;)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Lots of chatter about which is better... the hybrid as we now know it, or the diesels. The economy of the modern diesel is so convincing that the newest hybrids will actually switch to diesel engines, only to become "diesel/hybrids".

    Yes, the marriage of two great ideas. So, while you are all debating which is best, the smarter approach is to realize that each offers a benefit that can be united together as a diesel hybrid.

    Europe will be the first logical market for this, and then the North American market thereafter.

    Here's a link you can all read to get the point:

    link title

    And for those of you that posted something to the effect that Toyota doesn't do diesels, just remember that they have taken control of Isuzu for a strategic reason... and that reason is diesel technology. Toyota already has the hybrid technology, but they are sorely lacking in diesel technology and they know it. Thus the Isuzu takeover.

    Why all this? Because ultimately there will be diesel hybrids. So it would seem you are all correct in pointing out the merits of diesels AND hybrids, and the future will marry the two.

    :)

    TagMan
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I never understood the diesel v hybrid debate as if they were mutually exclusive. Obviously the two technologies can compliment each other. It's like a debate on what's the best way to lose weight, diet or exercise? Hmmm... both.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    quote larsb-
    They are just the FIRST COMPANY TO REQUEST IT since they hit their cap early due to, um, the fact that they are the NUMBER ONE HYBRID COMPANY IN THE WORLD.

    The other carmakers will also complain when and if THEIR cars use all the tax credit because of SALES SUCCESS. -end

    How ironic. Since Toyota is #1 Hybrid Company in the World it is very important that the citizens of the United States provide thousands of dollars in incentives to sell each Toyota hybrid cars. :(

    What does the tax credit accomplish? Reduced energy usage? Reduced emissions?

    A better idea would be for the government to give a tax credit to those who carpool, or ride a bicycle to work, or live close to their work instead of commuting 100 plus miles per day. :surprise:
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    The intent of the tax credit is yes, of course, to encourage people to drive more fuel-efficient and cleaner cars.

    That's why the diesels are in the legislation - they qualify on the "high mileage" side but not yet on the cleanliness side.

    Toyota and the other auto lobbyists knew that to convince people to spend $1500 to $3000 more for a hybrid car would be a tough sell, until people LEARNED about the benefits.

    Now that the tax benefits are lower and on the way out, SOME PEOPLE who are greedy and penny-pinchers might avoid buying the hybrids. Regardless of the reason, we need to keep more hybrids on the road. Thus the urging of continued tax breaks.

    The tax breaks will also apply to the diesels in 2008 once they are EPA approved. I'm sure VW is looking forward to it.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    good article,

    it suggests the problem delaying their enthusiastic adoption by fleet owners : -

    "he adds that the plate owners decide which model to purchase. These days, says Beck operations manager Andrew Whiteley, most choose two- or three-year-old Ford Tauruses, which sell at fleet auctions for about a third of the price of a new Camry hybrid."

    Can you see how this works ? The owners pay for the cab, but it's the drivers who are on the hook for putting in the gas. Hmmm a letter to the editor is in order but I should think it's incumbent on Toyota to lobby city hall about the optics of not supporting the drive to reduce urban pollution except when it suits them.

    FYI the Province of Ontario up here in Canada has implemented the Drive Clean program for mandatory testing of all private cars every two years on the dynamometer. It's a royal pain particularly if, like me, you happen to own several.

    By the way, LARSB, I am laying off the SEGS !!

    T2
  • catamcatam Posts: 331
    At least from an emissions standpoint. Cabs do a high majority of city miles, in stop and go traffic, and idling waiting for new fares. At least they would not be emitting gases during those idle times. I do agree with others though that they still would be hard pressed to be cost effective.
  • Hybrids are mandatory as a portion of your fleet here in NYC. From what I've read, they're a real hit with the cabbies. Much less of their profit going to pay for gas. So far I've seen Escapes ,Hihy's and yes one TCH.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    If hybrids make sense for anyone its for cab and bus drivers. A vehicle that can recapture kinetic energy through regenerative braking is ideally suited for this type of stop and go driving. The next generation of hybrids promise to have even better regenerative braking capabilities. Are there any hybrid buses in operation?
  • sibbaldsibbald Posts: 106
    I took possession of my TCH last Aug. and within two weeks noticed an Esquimalt TCH taxi in Victoria. It was the first other TCH I saw. Our taxi companies have been using the Prius for several years, there is a ton of them here. The older ones have 250,000 km on them with no battery or other hybrid issues. Toyota of Japan bought back two of the Prius taxi cabs in Victoria for engineering studies and gave the owners new cars in exchange. They love them, the Prius is a little cheaper on gas then the TCH and more room for load capacity. But, the main point is, Prius has the same hybrid principle as the TCH and they have been rock solid for over 150,000 miles. Victoria is more green than any other city in Canada, for more reasons than just the weather.

    Tom
  • We have quite a few hybrid buses here in NYC. Should be around 500 or so.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Sad to see my TCH so far down the list: :cry:

    2007 Greenest Cars

    ‘Greenest’ vehicles for 2007

    1. Honda Civic GX

    2. Toyota Prius

    3. Honda Civic Hybrid

    4. Nissan Altima Hybrid

    5. Toyota Yaris

    6. Toyota Corolla

    7. Toyota Camry Hybrid

    8. Honda Fit

    9. Kia Rio/Rio 5

    10. Hyundai Accent

    11. Hyundai Elantra

    12. Honda Civic

    ‘Meanest’ vehicles on the environment for 2007

    1. Volkswagon Touareg

    2. Mercedez-Benz GL320 CDI

    3. Lamborghini Murcielago

    4. Jeep Grand Cherokee

    5. Bentley Arnage RL

    6. Mercedez-Benz R320 CDI

    7. Mercedez-Benz ML320 CDI

    8. Maybach 57 S/62 S

    9. Bentley Azure

    10. Ford F-250

    11. Dodge Ram 2500 Mega Cab

    12. Lincoln Navigator

    Source: greenercars.com
  • You might wanna rethink that statement....Vancouver has an abundance of Prius taxis not to mention clear and clean skys. I couldn't help but notice all of the yellow cabs all over the place. Made me smile....since I own an '04 Prius.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    RailroadJames - welcome back friend !!! We need more hybrid advocates around here. Good to hear from you and thanks for coming back around !!!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    It is quite obvious that whomever came up with the list was uninformed or just plain biased against non Japanese vehicles. For example the 2007 VW Touareg has an EPA rating of 6 on emissions. The Toyota Landcruiser a 3. No where do I see the gas guzzling high polluting Toyotas on the meanest list. Was that an oversight or just outright lies? Obviously a source supported by Toyota.

    I may not buy number one. I have my eye on number 2. I am about to buy the MB GL320 CDI. Looks like a real nice vehicle for someone that wants it all. Size, Safety, Comfort, great handling, performance and good mileage.

    PS James,
    Good to see you on Edmund's again.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,863
    "We need more hybrid advocates around here. "

    Hmmm, I would think that we need more impartial people around here, so we can discuss things logically, both pro and con... :confuse:
  • petlpetl Posts: 610
    Nothing to be sad about. Look at the cars it beat, not the cars it didn't. I also own one. Still amazed at how quiet and gas efficient this vehicle is. It feels like a luxury vehicle costing $15,000.00 more (solid as a rock, so far). We are just packing smarter. Hey, my hockey sticks (with the back seat down) and bag fit nicely in the trunk.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Prius Loses Some Of It's Sales Juice

    Just wait until gasoline is $3/gal again this summer and sales will be back to what they were.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ...and the model is 3-1/2 years old which is about the time most vehicles start to need some sort of 'boost' to keep buyers interest alive.

    ...and Toyota has increased prodution/availability now beginning in 2007. They may actually sell more per month than before ( this remains to be seen ).

    ...and the overall automarket is likely to have a tough year in 2007 if forecasts are correct.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    ...and the model is 3-1/2 years old which is about the time most vehicles start to need some sort of 'boost' to keep buyers interest alive

    How many years old is the current Corolla? Any news of a hybrid when it is redesigned?
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