Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

13468921

Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    "Last I checked, CR subscribers ARE a part of the "general population."

    Allow me to indicate the proper emphasis:

    Last I checked, CR subscribers ARE a part of the "general population."

    A survey based a nonrandom part of the population should not claim to represent a random sampling of the entire population.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    How are they a non-random part of the population?

    Just because they subscribe to the same magazine?

    How does that reduce the value of their Prius data?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ...have been greatly exagerated ( as might have been reported by Mark Twain )


    Toyota Reports February Sales
    03/01/2007 Torrance, CA
    March 1, 2007 – Torrance, CA - Spurred by record hybrid sales, Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today reported best-ever February sales of 187,330 vehicles, an increase of 12.2 percent over February 2006.

    "Sales were brisk at both ends of our product lineup," said Jim Lentz, TMS executive vice president. "Setting an all-time record, the Prius hybrid led the way, nearly doubling last February's sales pace; while the new full-size Tundra got off to an impressive start since hitting showrooms February 5th."


    link
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I conceded the fact that a CR survey is not a representative cross-section of the general public. What I'm asking is why CR's particular subset of the general public would lead to data skewed in a certain direction? In this case we're talking about the Toyota Prius and owner satisfaction. So why do CR subscribers like the Prius more than the general public? That's the question. The obvious answer would be that CR subscribers tend to care more about fuel efficiency than the average motorist in the US. As a CR subscriber that's an observation I can accept and if it's a criticism I can also accept it.

    Here's an analogy. Let's say you did a "scientific" survey of Americans and asked them what they considered to be the best source of protein and the result was hot dogs, hamburgers or steak. Now you performed this same survey amongst people that visit gyms and health clubs and the result was fish, chicken or maybe soy. Would you dismiss the health club survey as being invalid because it was not scientific or representative?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Last I checked, CR subscribers ARE a part of the "general population."

    Which part? People who live in Alaska are part of the general population. Why not just survey people who live in Alaska?

    Are subscribers of CR likely to be influenced by CR's recommendations? ;) Have you ever studied pyschology?

    Back to the Prius and the news article.
    CR claims to measure vehicle satisfaction.
    JD Power APEAL study measures how gratifying a vehicle is to own and drive.
    The interesting thing is, NO PRIUS listed.
    No PRIUS here!

    Autopacific also measures ownership satisfaction. The interesting thing is, Lincoln Navigator had the highest rating. No Prius here either
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    "What I'm asking is why CR's particular subset of the general public would lead to data skewed in a certain direction?"

    Because people who subscribe to CR have a certain mind-set, which may or may not be different from the general population.

    RE: Health club. Yes, I would not consider that a valid representation of anything other than the health club membership group. Just as CR is only a valid representation of the membership of CR. People try and use it to indicate the opinion of the general population. Maybe. Maybe not.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    You got to love them company men

    while the new full-size Tundra got off to an impressive start since hitting showrooms February 5th."

    I wonder if he fooled his boss with that BS? Hard to be happy about 21.8% lower Tundra sales. Looks to me like they had about 3 big winners and over a dozen real big losers. We shall see if selling more Corollas & Prii make for a better bottom line. Toyota also keep the lid on hybrid sales by not breaking them out from the crowd.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Making any judgement on 13 days of sales.... with reduced availability of new vehicles as they ramp up is not valid. Let's defer til July /Aug when the CrewMax has arrived and been sold and seen on the streets....and when all the stores have 20-50 units available iso 4 units each.

    Now if gas continues up over $3/gal and stays there all big rigs will become lot anchors.

    At the bottom of the article they broke them all out separately.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    I was curious about the Camry hybrid and do not see it on the list. It could be my eyes though. The crew max better be nicer than the current Tundra crew cab. It is cramped compared to GM and Dodge Ram CCs.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's bigger than both..
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Out of Control Prius Crash

    quote-
    The car began to act strangely. He was taking it back to the dealership when suddenly the car began accelerating even though he applied the brakes and the emergency brake.

    "I could not stop the car. Because of its design I couldn't shift into neutral," Robinson said.
    -end

    Are the changes in controls in a hybrid dangerous?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    That had nothing to do with the "hybridness" of the car.

    The car (as can any car) either had a stuck accelerator or the driver hit the gas instead of the brake (a common problem in this kind of accident.)

    And that crap about "having to call a team of Toyota experts" - that was stupid. There was no danger to anyone. Kdhspyder has already explained the safety of the high voltage system.

    Just what we need - another story to create some false paranoia and anti-hybrid sentiment. I guarantee you some of the lower-IQ people at that wreck are gonna come away with the COMPLETELY IDIOTIC IDEA that "hybrids can accelerate out of control and will catch on fire and electrocute you."

    Oh My.......so sad..............

    And this paragraph is SO IDIOTIC:

    The driver, Art Robinson of DuPont, told KING 5 News that he just purchased the used 2005 Toyota Prius this morning only after he was absolutely sure it was safe to drive. Two different dealers gave it a clean bill of health - one even certified it.

    He bought it "only after he was absolutely sure it was safe to drive?"

    Why in the name of all that is holy did he even have an idea that it would not be safe to drive? It's just a 2005 car like any other 2005 car, except it gets better mileage !!! Would he have been "worried that it was safe to drive" if it was a Cobalt or a Corolla or a Camry?

    GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • petlpetl Posts: 610
    KING5 must be hard-up for news.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    Don't get your blood pressure going up now. I thought of the two dealer comment as well. I think it may have been a salvage repaired vehicle. It does not take much of a crash in a Prius for the insurance company to declare a total. There are some unanswered questions. This is not the first case of a hybrid accelerating out of control. I know you find it hard to believe and that may be so. I am not thrilled with any drive by wire systems. Another good reason to buy an older vehicle and keep it maintained for the next 20 years.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    gary says, "This is not the first case of a hybrid accelerating out of control."

    Well, if you are referring to the HCH which crashed into a 7-11 that was posted on this website, that was a hoax.

    This is the first one I have ever heard about that made a real news story on a real news website.

    And this one is still to be determined if it was an actual stuck accelerator or if it was driver error like almost all "accelerating out of control" stories are.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    I am referring to the myriad of problems with the Prius that you are in denial over. If you check the NHTSA ODI you will find 50 different categories of complaints on just the 2005 Prius. They go from airbag failures resulting in injuries to wheels coming loose if you do not tighten them every 1000 miles per the Prius manual. I cannot find another 2005 vehicle with as many complaints. I checked on my GMC Sierra PU. There were only 7 complaints. I am sure they sold twice as many Sierra PU trucks as Prius in 2005. As far as the HCH you referred to it was branded a hoax because you did not want to believe it could happen. You called the poster everything but a liar. No one with bad news about hybrids is welcome on Edmund's is the truth.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    gary says, "I am referring to the myriad of problems with the Prius that you are in denial over."

    Those Prius complaints are mostly "I don't understand my car please help me" and not "my car BECAUSE IT IS A HYBRID accelerated out of control." Those are different subejects altogether.

    gary says, "As far as the HCH you referred to it was branded a hoax because you did not want to believe it could happen. You called the poster everything but a liar. No one with bad news about hybrids is welcome on Edmund's is the truth."

    No, it was branded a hoax because my instincts are good and I saw through the falsehood. Like I said and you can look it up: Almost EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of cars "accelerating out of control" is driver error. Cars have a myriad of safety features to prevent that one single dangerous occurence.

    Toyota will be able to determine if that man's Prius was out of control because of a stuck throttle. If it WAS, it was NOT because the car is a hybrid: it's because cars (rare but true) sometimes DO get stuck throttles. Old cars, new cars, does not matter.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    We know that you guys are on opposite sides of the true-believer/skeptic fence.

    Repeating the same stuff to each other endlessly is not convincing anyone to reconsider their position.

    Please take the next exit from this traffic circle and move on.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? pf_flyer@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,860
    Fuel-efficient engines, vehicles on offer at Geneva Motor Show

    GENEVA (AP) - Fuel efficiency through new technology and hybrid vehicles will be a top theme at this year's Geneva Motor Show, with DaimlerChrysler displaying a lower-emission diesel engine and Toyota unveiling its Hybrid X concept that marries an electric motor with a gas engine.

    The 77th edition of the show comes amid stronger concern about global warming and the environment, and a debate about auto emission limits in Europe. One sharp focus is on making engines more fuel-efficient and more environmentally conscious - while helping to maintain a healthy bottom line.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? pf_flyer@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    In regard to the NTHSA complaints on the 2005 Prius:

    many of them are tire complaints
    a few are "crosswind" complaints
    a few are "gas tank refueling pump shuts off" complaints

    There are 144 total complaints, and 23 of those are duplicates, for a total of 121 complaints.

    121 complaints for about 107,000 plus 2005 Priuses sold, that seems pretty small.

    Many of them are related to "engine shutoff failures" which were involved in a Prius recall and has been fixed.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,785
    "The car (as can any car) either had a stuck accelerator or the driver hit the gas instead of the brake (a common problem in this kind of accident.)"

    Yes, but the Prius runs it's brakes through the engine CPU - required for regenerative braking purposes. This opens the possibility of the CPU killing the braking system.

    I would expect that the emergency brake is a mechanical design.

    I think people missed the point about the fire department concerns. The crashed vehicle had been doused in water, which conducts electricity pretty well. This is not the same concern as surfaced a couple of years ago, dealing with cutting people out of hybrids after an accident. Firemen are very safe in their work (they have to be), and I agree with their concern about high voltage current. I would not put my life on the line based on a (hopefully working) high voltage cutout switch that should have shut off the flow of current, especially when the wrecked vehicle is wet.

    People should bear in mind that this sort of thing is not common with the Prius.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    See this page for a good breakdown on firefighter information when tackling a burning hybrid car:

    Burning Prius

    One paragraph caught my eye:

    Where a fully involved hybrid vehicle fire is encountered, copious (large and sufficient) amounts of water will generally be the extinguishing agent of choice. This will eliminate the radiant heat and begin cooling the metal battery box and the plastic battery cell modules inside the high-voltage battery pack itself. Fire suppression crews will not be shocked or electrocuted during direct attack on a hybrid vehicle fire, even if flames are impinging on the battery pack itself.

    There are many other methods of maintaining safety listed on that page and none of them say "dont walk around in the water if you put a Prius fire out."
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,900
    I would think that any automaker that is selling vehicles with high voltage systems should be required to formally educate all the fire and rescue personnel that may come in contact with this type vehicle. Or expect a call when the occasion arises. I would not risk the life of a fire fighter to save Toyota a couple bucks.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Toyota and the dealer network do have a program for this.

    There is also a famous Toyota PDF for first responders.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Run-Away Prius #2

    quote-
    A Toyota Prius rampaged out of control on a Michigan highway recently, endangering the driver as well as those nearby. It's the second known incident of sudden, uncontrolled acceleration in the computer-controlled hybrids.
    -end quote

    Hmmm....These drivers certainly must not have been Consumer Reports subscribers or they would be the Happiest Vehicles Owners. ;)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    That website commonly posts "anti-hybrid" stories. A little biased.

    You want me to start finding stories about "non-hybrids" which have "accelerated without driver input?" Because I can find some if you want.

    Bottom line: cars sometimes accelerate "supposedly" on their own. It's not a "hybrid phenomenon" and not a "Prius phenomenon.

    PS Can't resist:

    Runaway BMW

    Runaway Pontiac

    Runaway Jeep Cherokee

    Runaway Taurus (not)
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    You want me to start finding stories about "non-hybrids" which have "accelerated without driver input?" Because I can find some if you want.

    If you do, this is not the correct forum.

    Returning to the topic of hybrids I found this to be an interesting article about hybrids in USA from a German viewpoint. Why Hybrids are a Hard Sell

    My opinion is that is great that hybrids have created interest, awareness and demand for fuel efficient options.

    I think hybrids have allowed a business case to be made for even more choices in fuel efficient vehicles.
    Look closely and you can see the automakers hedging their bets. Toyota is pushing into diesel. Ditto for Honda, which may not build a new hybrid Accord.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    PS Can't resist: Try harder to resist! :(

    Perhaps hybrids may contribute to driver error, especially with drivers not yet familar with differences in controls and layout from non-hybrids.

    Start-button instead of key switch, no neutral selection on transmission, etc..

    Many people fail to take the time to understand a new vehicles features after purchase before they take it off the lot and begin driving.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    mpoarbad says, "Perhaps hybrids may contribute to driver error, especially with drivers not yet familar with differences in controls and layout from non-hybrids. Start-button instead of key switch, no neutral selection on transmission, etc.."

    Good point, but one fact remains:

    The brake pedal and accelerator are in the same spot in hybrid floorboards as in any other car...:D
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    larsb -The brake pedal and accelerator are in the same spot in hybrid floorboards as in any other car...

    Same spot as an Audi 5000? :P
13468921
Sign In or Register to comment.