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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,522
    Performance ‘comparable’?? I suppose, but:

    Well, with a curb weight closer to 3600 than 4000, and a ( um, somewhat underrated ) 300 \ 300 ( vs 304 \ 272 ) the BMW 335 acceleration has proven what I’d call significantly quicker in independent, published tests.

    The C+D test of a manual trans. 2008 CTS shows times nearly a second longer than the 335 to 60, and over a second less quick ( at almost 10 MPH slower terminal velocity ) in the Quarter Mile.

    IMHO, a difference of a half second or less might mean that they were comparable. Clearly no number ( or set of numbers ) completely describes any car – and acceleration is only one quantifiable aspect of ‘performance’ but the acceleration results strongly suggest to me that the 335 would feel much quicker, in typical street driving. Stepping out of a 2007 Corvette ( my Daily Driver ) and into the 335, I was very pleasantly surprised at the ‘thrust’ available from the TT I6. Even with another 175+ ( guess ) pounds of ‘ballast’ added by the BMW sales dweeb during my test drive.

    Again, does not mean that the 335 & CTS are not comparable, overall – just in my opinion, the acceleration aspect is not very close. I can see other areas where they are more nearly comparable.
    - Ray

    Sources:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/13548/tested-2007-bmw-335i-coupe-automatic- - - -performance-payoffs-page3.html

    0 – 60 = 4.9
    Quarter = 13.4 @ 106
    ( That’s with the six speed automatic = slightly quicker results than their test with the six speed manual trans. )

    http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/13537/full-test-2008-cadillac-cts.html

    0 – 60 = 5.8
    Quarter = 14.6 @ 97
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    DTS are a used bargain, I see them (06s) even cheaper than that around here. Lots of bang for the buck when they are 12-18 months old.

    That Eldo is probably only about 4x market value.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    My point of view is that my 95 Riviera with the supercharged engine had more than adequate performance for normal day to day driving. It would do 0-60 in 8 seconds and the quarter mile in 16 with the end speed at 90 MPH. My SRX will do better than that, although I really see little obvious difference in normal driving.

    The CTS has excellent performance with either engine. BMW has been forced into turbocharging to keep up with the competition, as they can't fit a longer inline six without moving the firewall back into the passenger compartment and moving the rear passengers into the trunk.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    From what I have read, the 2009 CTS-V will have a *500*HP engine. Silly power levels for the insane. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    It however could be as high as 600 hp. !!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Motor Trend seems to think the new CTS-V will get a 600 hp version of the Corvette engine.

    What BMW has done by turbocharging the 335's six it to bump the entry level sports sedan performance benchmark to a new level. GM's turbocharged engines have a very flat torque curve which means that performance does not depend on the engine being kept in a particular speed range. BMW's 335 has 300+ lb-ft of torque and will out perform any engine with less torque.

    The DI 3.6 in the CTS will compete well with the rest of the competition, but is overpowered by BMW's turbo engine. Even the 4.6 northstar does not have enough torque to out perform the 335. I think Cadillac (and the rest of the entry level sports sedans) will have to turbo charge some version of the DOHC V6 line (a bigger version of the turbo 2.8) to be on the same performance level as BMW.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    But let's see.. turbo=money and things to break, plus lag(which the 3.6 is designed to not have, with a silly low torque curve).

    GM's opn the right track then it comes to beefing up power with its love of superchargers. Now a supercharged 3.6DI with 400HP... I'd rather have that than a CTS-V for driving around town(600 is just too much, really)
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    Don't forget, the DTS could be a "stripper" rental, as well.

    My money's on the Eldo being a convertible. They made convertibles from '82-'85 (Riv's as well)
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I don't know how much power the 3.6 is designed for. If it is at large end of the basic design, then turbo or super charging may not work. A smaller bore may be required to get enough strength in the block - say 3.2 liters or so.

    My supercharged 3800 in the 1995 Riviera was very powerful from a standing start. On snowy/icy/slippery streets it was hard to get started without spinning the tires, which meant that the traction control was always active until some speed was built up. On dry pavement it was OK. I am not fond of supercharging. A turbo charger should be slower to build up torque on slippery pavement though.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I remember when Cadillac announced that the 76 Eldorado convertible would be the last. I sort of wondered if buying one would be a good idea at the time. After production ended, there were a number of them advertised for sale for the next year or more. I think that they were not a good investment (unless you wanted a convertible to use).
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I'd rather have that than a CTS-V for driving around town(600 is just too much, really)

    I don't think 600 hp. is to much. :D

    -Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    As long as the CTS-V is a very limited production model, so that only a few are really on the streets, excessive horsepower is not really an issue. But my Corvettes (an 84 and an 86) were not good on slippery pavement, so the CTS-V is not something I would want. The CTS with the 3.6 engine is a well balanced vehicle for power, handling and fuel consumption. Cadillac thought that it needed a "V" series to compete with the "M" models of BMW and the "AMG" Mercedes models. The STS-V was a bit short of the mark, although it is more street worthy than the M5 or the CTS-V I think. Mercedes has outdone BMW though.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Has anyone heard if the CTS’s “platform” was engineered to accept a V8?

    Same platform as the current STS so yes.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well the "V" will be upgraded enough to handle all that power. The old Vette's like most cars from the pre-90's aren't nearly as sophisticated as todays modern cars and can accomidate these new historic power numbers. ;)

    -Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I think GM has the choice of two V8's for the Sigma platform. Rumors are that the V will have the small block V8 that is used in various forms thoughout GM or it could also get the new High feature V8 that is being developed. This is probably going to be available in the '09/'10 timeframe with some versions of it hitting 400 hp.

    My bet is the CTS V's get the readily available small block V8 next year and the normal CTS as an engine option will get the Ultra V8 and then it will be used on the future STS/DTS replacement as standard.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    So you think it will be what the 6.2 for the "V" ????? :confuse:

    -Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Hey they are just rumors but if Caddy can put out a 600 hp engine in a vehicle like the CTS and keep it's high end feel then surely that cannot hurt GM.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    is torque, not horsepower. The torque that you get to the wheels determines the acceleration. There are rumors saying is that both the Corvette and the CTS will get a supercharged engine.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,687
    Hmm...MB went that route 5 years ago...but have now gone back to normal...
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I think MB best performance is the turbo V12. But, for the BMW M5 class, the AMG 6.3 V8 is very competitive (best in class).
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    The highest compliment I can pay the 2008 Cadillac CTS is that five minutes behind the wheel turned me into as big a jerk as when I test a new BMW.

    The drivers of really good sport sedans aren't really rude, callous oafs. They just seem that way because their cars are so much quicker and more responsive than most of what's on the road.

    They accelerate faster, brake later and turn more sharply than lesser vehicles.

    It's like walking alongside a much taller person. They don't mean to leave you gasping for breath; they just cover more ground faster than you do.

    That's not to say some BMW drivers aren't arrogant twits, but so are some of the people who drive vastly inferior brands, like ... No, I've made enough enemies for one morning.

    The virtually all-new 2008 CTS is a terrific car, an excellent successor to the very good first-generation CTS that re-established Cadillac as a luxury brand to be reckoned with.

    The 2008 CTS is better looking and much more luxurious and technically sophisticated than the car it replaces, able to stand alongside the BMW 3-series as the world's best sports sedan. In addition to the 3-series, the CTS's prime competition includes the Audi A4, Infiniti G35, Lexus GS 300 and Mercedes-Benz C-class.
    We're talking real money here, but the CTS is a bargain in its class. According to Edmunds.com, comparable all-wheel drive models – the BMW 335xi, Infiniti M35X and Lexus GS350 AWD – run from $4,100 to $9,800 more than the CTS.

    Only the Audi A4 Quattro, which will be replaced by a new model next year, came in with a lower sticker price, checking in at $450 less than a comparably equipped CTS.
    Add advanced features like a hard drive to store music and navigation information and the best real-time traffic information system of any car I've tested, and the CTS is second to none in the speedy world of sports sedans.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Is this your opinion, or did you copy it from somewhere? And if it is someone else's ideas, should you not credit them with either a link or at least the source?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    62' can't link up to his articles. He's always done this.

    He's actually Bob Lutz, but don't say anything. :P

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    What the article is saying:

    Bottom Line is the 2008 Cadillac CTS is the best ELLPS ever made to date. I'd prefer the stick version though. :shades:

    Lemko, are you going to give one a test pal ? :)

    -Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,161
    I stopped at the local dealer west and they were lusting after theirs. It was on the truck, they think, but the strike had begun and they didn't know if it was coming or not.

    I drove across the road through the Toyo lot. They had lots of tundras. The one of several salesman waved at me as I drove by the front of the building like a near downtown Dayton street lady trying to lure me in, but I resisted. He probably hoped for a laydown deal so he could retail my beautiful crimson LeSabre and make a double profit. :blush:

    The Tundras did NOT have contractor boxes on them. Most of the Tundras I've seen on the road are driven by women or men who look like insurance salesmen or office workers.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well if you get a chance to drive a 08' CTS, you need to give me the details ASAP. :)

    As far as those Tundra's go I still haven't warmed up to their styling. I saw on the news last night Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Infiniti, each had recalls. :D

    -Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Sorry, I get media articles emailed to me w/o links. I put them in italics so you know it is not my thoughts. Forget who wrote the one above.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    Shoot, I'm afraid if I do I'll come home with one.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    ROTFLMAO.....Trust me if I was in your shoes and didn't want a car payment I'd stay far away from your local Caddy Dealer...... ;)

    -Rocky

    P.S. I asked you a question a couple days ago in the Report your local gas prices forum. ;)
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    I don't go in the "Report Your Local Gas Prices" forum much these days. I'm afraid I'll jinx the fuel prices.
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