Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

rockylee

I'd love to know which person y'all think it is....Some newer members do have similar styles to him.

Rocky

trimaster

2. As far as I know, American luxury brands have never had any reliability problems over and above that of the Japanese (especially Buick, Cadillac and Mercury).
I do not mention the Germans, because they struggle to be what they used to be in terms of reliability (although they feel very solid).
In that sense, I am not sure what role reliability plays in this discussion at all.
If anyone is to be "punished" for reliability problems, it is the Germans, and yet they do very well sales-wise.
Can anyone explain that phenomenon?

IMO, it's because when they DO run, they are a BLAST to drive. & on top of that, take a BMW or Mercedes of any model from the 80's & compare it to a GM, Ford, or Chrysler from the 80's & compare them.

9 times out of 10, that German auto will not only look MUCH, MUCH better (inside & out), but is also running much better as well. It's not abnormal to find an old Bimmer or Benz with 200k miles on the dash & still going strong.

trimaster

Build better cars.
Price them intelligently.
Receive great reviews from the appropriate magazines. Reviews should contain phrases such as, "...conspicuous quality of materials..." and "...outstanding build quality..."
Dial in the proper ride/handling for the audience that you need to buy your car. In the same review, phrases such as,"...BMW-like handling but with a Lexus-like ride..." Or heck, just "...eerily similar to the ride/handling characteristics of a BMW while costing thousands less!" should be referenced.
Word of mouth will begin to generate.
And now that you've built it, they will come!

See? Now wasn't that simple!

Sounds simple eough, but what time frame are we talking? That type of plan can't happen overnight (if possible), can it?

pch101

Sounds simple eough, but what time frame are we talking? That type of plan can't happen overnight (if possible), can it?

It's a good plan. The only problem is that they've had thirty years to get around to doing it, and haven't done it so far. I wonder if they have figured out yet they haven't got another thirty more?

snakeweasel

It's not abnormal to find an old Bimmer or Benz with 200k miles on the dash & still going strong.

The people I know with MB's and BMW's with that many miles usually are in the shop every 6-8 weeks. I would think any car that is at the mechanic that often with the money they have put into it should run strong at 200K.

bumpy

My mother loves her G6 GTP and brags about how good it handles and how powerful it is.

Compared to what, I wonder?

nvbanker

Actually the Escalade paint looked better than the sedans. I wonder if they are built in a different factory??

Of course they are, shifty - they're built at the truck factory where all the clones are made, from Tahoe to Slade. Different engines & interior parts is all that's different. The GMT-900 is brand new, so perhaps their robots are better than the Cadillac plant.

fintail

Hmmm...the people I have known with high mileage MBs were in the shop every 4-6 months...for oil changes, and a scheduled maintenance now and then.

I ran my 126 up to almost 200K before I sold it...and I was in the shop every 5-6 months...for oil changes. Only had one unscheduled repair...and when it came time to sell, I had multiple people wanting to buy the car...

Mr_Shiftright

It depends entirely on whether the high mileage German car is a well-maintained one from an original owner or some beater bought on the used car market.

Nothing well-made, be it car, clothing, gun or watch, tolerates neglect very well. A shovel tolerates neglect, or a water heater maybe, but not a well-crafted object with 10,000 parts in it.

rockylee

Compared to her 2002 Grand Am GT and her 99' Grand Prix GTP. She also liked the handling a little better than the current Grand Prix's she test drove but did admit the Grand Prix GXP was the best car she was cross shopping.

Rocky

plekto

Interesting video.

Here's what likely happened:
Camshaft positioning sensor or cranhshaft sensor died - this can happen to any car at any time, actually.

On GM cars(don['t know about all of the others), it runs very rough and goes into "limp home" mode.

That wobbling and chugging he was getting out of the engine is exactly what's happening. It's a fail-safe mode that will keep the car running, but the computers are doing nothing - it won't compensate for air/fuel or throttle - so if your car ever does this, it's easily fixable(new sensor and MAF).

The black smoke later on was the thing backfiring. That instantly destroys the MAF. The car now has mesed up timing *and* airflow. (why you don't floor it - it'll take out the MAF in short order) Note - if he'd only applied half throttle, he'd have likely not been blowing white smoke either

The engine also isn't going to rev more than about 1500rpm or so to keep itself from damaging itself, so the alternator also isn't providing nearly enough juice to keep everything running.(hence his dead gauges). But it'll run. And running in some fashion is better than not at all.

Note - a simmilar Toyota or Honda would just stop running, most likely. And he DID make it home.

nvbanker

Camshaft positioning sensor or cranhshaft sensor died - this can happen to any car at any time, actually.

True, but, it almost never does. I've only had it happen once, on a Jeep Wrangler with 100,000 miles on it, and it had just been wrecked. I've owned 50 cars of all types, and never had it happen again. Plus - this was the 4th time he has had catastrophic failure on the car.

plekto

Yeah, the frequency of issues is a whole other matter entirely. My guess is that it's Delphi. Ever since the problems of a year or so ago, quality seems to have taken a dive on various electrical components. And who would blame them for not putting their best into their work with all of the angst GM is spreading around lately to their employees?

He should lemon-law it and then... NOT GET A BMW. He thinks his CTS-V is problematic? He'll get to be on first name basis with his BMW repairman. God, what a poor choice if he wants a bulletproof car that never breaks down. I actually laughed at his complaining about the CTS having problems and his saying that he should just get a 335i - as if it is any better.

He wants decent reliability and preformance? He should check out the G35 or bite the bullet and get a S2000.

bumpy

That's a pretty low bar to clear. There are probably Russian cars that could beat those two. :P

Did she ever get a chance to ride in your TL? That, or a pre-2003 Maxima or I35 would have carried the day if given the chance.

Mr_Shiftright

he should have stopped driving the car. I don't have much respect for people who trash their cars because they're mad at them. It's a bit "spoiled brat" if you ask me.

rockylee

LOL, I agree its a low bar. Unfortunately she never got to ride or drive my TL, but she is a big fan of the TL but her family works for GM. Her dad and brother retired from GM/Delphi, and her husband's brother, father, sister also all retired from GM. Her husband my step-dad now works for Delphi.

Rocky

P.S. She never really liked the maxima or I35 because she thought they were ugly. My mom knows her cars pretty well but likes GM. Her dream car is to own the last generation Trans-Am WS-6

rockylee

plekto,

Dude you are right about the limp home mode feature of GM engines. I've never seen one in action to recognize what will happen to a car once it goes to the "limp mode"

As you've said a BMW driver would of stood by the side of the road with his thumb up or pulling her skirt up to show a little leg to hitch a ride :P

Rocky

snakeweasel

Plus - this was the 4th time he has had catastrophic failure on the car.

One thing I am wondering is did he do any modifications on the car? When I got mine my nieces boyfriend (who loves to modify cars) offered to boost up my HP and performance through some modifications. I wisely turned him down.

nvbanker

he should have stopped driving the car. I don't have much respect for people who trash their cars because they're mad at them. It's a bit "spoiled brat" if you ask me.

I completely agree - limping home is not what he did - storming home is more like it.....not a mature thing to do, however, if this is the 4th time he's been dumped into limp mode, he may be a little short on patience as well.....

trimaster

Plus, with the additional safety innovations in the past 20 years, a two year old Kia is probably safer than a 20 year old Mercedes.

A 2003-04 Kia Optima safer than a 1985 SEL???? Those cars are TANKS. I doubt that VERY much.

nvbanker

A 2003-04 Kia Optima safer than a 1985 SEL???? Those cars are TANKS. I doubt that VERY much.

Tanks they are, but pretty hard on the inside if you're jostled around much. In certain collisions the Optima may be much more protective, actually. Not that I'm a Kia fan, I'm not.

trimaster

Well you have to also realize that there is a snob appeal with BMW and Mercedes. Many people of those will buy a Yugo if it had a BMW or MB label on it. My point is that if something very good is coming from Cadillac (and in my opinion there is) it won't make a difference to many BMW/Benz owners simply because its not a BMW or a Benz.

Not true. When BMW & Merc quality decreased in the 90's, many people flocked to Lexus. Lexus made a huge gain, but Caddy didn't. Caddy had a trememdous opportunity to capitalize on the German miscues & didn't.

& now that the Germans have gotten the quality issues back on track that window of opportunity is closed...

Snob appeal does exist, no doubt about it. Too bad Caddy was invited to the party.

nvbanker

Many people of those will buy a Yugo if it had a BMW or MB label on it.

Witness, the Mini Cooper. If it didn't have BMW behind it, it would not have sold 10 copies.

trimaster

if they earned that snob appeal they are quickly losing it. They are not the cars they once were.

They're in the process of getting back what was lost:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/12081/2006-jaguar-super-v-8-vs-2007-merc- edes-benz-s550-vs-2006-audi-a8l-quattro-vs-2007-lexus-ls460l-vs-2006-bmw-750li.h- tm

snakeweasel

I will believe that when I see that.

trimaster

The analogy fits better than you think. People have an image (earned or not) about a luxury vehicle that they do not have for your run of the mill ordinary car. Many people will pay more for that image. This is the reason cars like MB, BMW and Lexus can sell cars for much more than you can get a well option car of the same size and capabilities that Toyota, Honda or Ford sells.

So are you saying Toyota, Ford Honda are just as good as Mercedes & BMW?

trimaster

I however feel that many of those same people that buy cars just to portray a image lack the human trait of good character. Some people where clothes they don't even like just for the image. I personally think image is over-rated. Who do you honestly have to impress ? Isn't it enough to buy or own something decent or more importantly something you like anymore. I've been out shopping with friends and some of them like brands of goods of lesser names but won't buy it because it doesn't portray what people think of them. I have a few friends that are relators, and are afraid to where certain things or drive certain cars because they are afraid it will hurt sales. I think its ridiculous !!!!

I understand your point, but this is an image conscious society. There's no denying it. How else could Toyota rebadge their cars as Lexus & they sell like hotcakes here in the U.S, but sit on the lots collecting dudt in their home country of Japan?

When many people think of a successful doctor, attorney, banker, etc. etc. etc. they see them wearing a certain type of clothes, driving a certain car, living in a certain type of house, etc.

& there are people out there who will base their business decisions on how a person looks, what he's wearing, etc.

Not saying it's right or wrong. It's just reality.

trimaster

Heck, I mostly drive my 1988 Buick Park Avenue when I'm not either walking or taking the bus. I bought my Cadillacs because I'm an afficianodo of the brand rather than worried about what image my car projects.

Why is it that some people are "afficiando's of the brand" while others who prefer another brand are image conscious??

Can somebody explain that to me?

lol

rockylee

trimaster,

I know its reality but it's a sad reality
:surprise:

Rocky

trimaster

I'll match Cadillacs quality to any of the Germans any day. In the quality department Cadillac is light years ahead of Mercedes and BMW. The lansing plant that builds the cts, sts, and srx is the second best plant in the world for quality. Lexus of Japan is the only plant ahead of Lansing.

Is this fact or opinion? If it's a fact please show a link. If it's an opinion I respectfully disagree.

snakeweasel

So are you saying Toyota, Ford Honda are just as good as Mercedes & BMW?

Well I am saying that there are few things you can do in a Benz or BMW that you cannot do in a Toyota, Ford or Honda. Many of the more run of the mill cars makes give you much better reliability and you can get much of the interior but at much less cost.

snakeweasel

Can somebody explain that to me?

Sure the difference is liking the car simple for the car itself verses liking the image it portrays.

In other words there is a difference between someone who likes to own brand "X" because it is reliable, looks nice, feels good and does what s/he wants it to do and someone who likes brand "X" because they can say boast that they have brand "X".

trimaster

I know those numbers aren't a perfect measure of vehicle Quality, but if you multiply by per 200,000 cars you get a general idea about a cars quality.
These numbers aren't new.
The Germans have lagged for years in overall quality.

OK. I'll bit on this one here. Here's another question(s):

How is it that with all the probs & complaints, that BMW & Merc are still near the top of the automotive world, while Cadillac is trying to regain what they lost?

If Cadillac was the "standard" of the world, what happened to all their loyal customers? Where'd they go? Where are the rest of the afficiando's? What cars did they buy when Caddy started to deteriorate?

What did the German's do right that GM did wrong to keep a customer base? How did they keep their image as "the car to have" while Caddy was reduced to "the car to avoid?"

trimaster

You guys are all confused about build quality. Build quality is used by assembly plants to measure worker defects per vehicle.
Both BMW & Mercedees go for unscheduled service calls more then the indulstrial average. I was the one that said Mercedes & BMW suck. If you look at unscheduled service repairs both companies suck compared to the industrial average. For a luxury brand I expect better then 26th & 27th.

Would U change your tune if they were 1st?

Car & Driver

I posted this link before, but here it is again. They are well aware of their problems & are addressing them accordingly. In order for Cadillac to become the "Standard" again they'll have to compete at this level. Until then, they are on the outside looking in.

rockylee

What did the German's do right that GM did wrong to keep a customer base? How did they keep their image as "the car to have" while Caddy was reduced to "the car to avoid?"

Cadillac is a brand often seen as old peoples cars and a brand driven by hip-hop and R&B stars.

The Germans were able to keep that wealthy conservative image.

Rocky

lemko

That Boston Globe guy is so full of crap he needs an enema with a high-pressure fire hose!

lemko

Oh, man! I couldn't have said it better! I've had GM cars since 1981 with similar good experience.

lemko

"Yes many are built at the Arlington, Texas SUV plant while the Sedans are built in Lansing Mi."

The very same plant that built my awesome 1989 Cadillac Brougham! They sure know how to build 'em in Texas!

trimaster

A 2003-04 Kia Optima safer than a 1985 SEL???? Those cars are TANKS. I doubt that VERY much.

Tanks they are, but pretty hard on the inside if you're jostled around much. In certain collisions the Optima may be much more protective, actually. Not that I'm a Kia fan, I'm not.

I hear you. Even if you were a Kia fan I'd respect your opinion. You know what's ironic? Many people think SUV's are safer because they are so big, when in reality, they are WORSE because of their tendency to flip or roll over...

Anyway, I guess the key phrase is "certain collisions." We can agree to disagree on this one though. I'd prefer to walk away afer being jostled...lol

I wonder how that same Kia would've fared in an accident like this: MB crash

If these cars were made to drive on the Autobahn at speeds double the U.S. limits, then surely they are tops in safety & can compete with the newer cars of today.

chevy598

BMW has below average quality ratings in 4 out of 8 categories.
Check out this JD power link.

JD Power Ratings Breakdown

rockylee

lemko, perhaps you could answer this one for me.

What kind of automobile was the Family Truckster in National Lampoons Vacation with Chevy Chase ????

Somebody has to have a pic of that vehical ????

rockylee

Yeah, dad almost transfered their since he said it's a great place to work from what he heard.

Rocky

P.S. How bout dem' Detroit Lions whipping da Cowgirls

trimaster

I'm not sure WHO to blame, but a lot of folks see it the way this Boston Globe op-ed does:

What's bad about GM? The cars

What a terrible story. For many people, GM is 1 big company. What I mean is, they don't differentiate between the various brands or divisions. A GM vehicle is a GM vehicle, whether it's a Buick, Caddy, or Pontiac.

When U hear people complain about a bad Mercedes vehicle, all U know is it's a Mercedes. Was it an S? SL? E? CLS? Who knows. & some don't care. All they know is "Mercedes is not reliable..."

Same rationale for some people when it comes to GM. GM has to improve across the board. They can't pick it up in 1 area & let another drop. The question is can they do it?

lemko

It was a highly modified 1983 Ford LTD Country Squire station wagon.

lemko

My Iggles beat the Cowgirls last week.

trimaster

The people I know with MB's and BMW's with that many miles usually are in the shop every 6-8 weeks. I would think any car that is at the mechanic that often with the money they have put into it should run strong at 200K.

I'm not 1 of them (luckily ). I have an E32 with 223k miles on it. Last time I took it in for something "serious" was Feb 05 for an oil leak. Since then it's just been oil changes...

I also have a 95 w140 S500 with 115k on the dash. I've had very few probs with that car also...

Of course I can't speak for your friends or others, but I see quite a few of older Benzes & Bimmers on the road & from the outside looking in they're still going strong.

I've seen very few stranded on the road over the years also.

trimaster

It's a good plan. The only problem is that they've had thirty years to get around to doing it, and haven't done it so far. I wonder if they have figured out yet they haven't got another thirty more?

I tell U the truth: I LOVE that Caddy convertible (esp in red.) Everytime I see one I have to admire it as it passes by. I've never been in one, but it sure does look nice.

My grandfather had an Eldorado back in the 70's. That car was BEAUTIFUL. I really hope they DO turn it around...

rockylee

LOL, yes they did. I need to see if they are winning ?

They however aren't the same cocky team as they were with T.O. :sick:

Rocky

plekto

Yes, that's it in action. His mistake was to not recognize it(though it should be in HUGE PRINT IN THE MANUAL). If he slowly got it up to speed and let it stay in 6th gear(he had a manual!), it'd have gone up to 50-60mph not smoothly, but well enough. But it requires a different style than mashing it to death.(and it's really NOT designed to work with a manual gearbox)

So he blew tons of smoke. Yet, even with his abuse, it made it home. Most other makes of cars - when the timing goes out, that's it - tow it. That GM(a few others may do it as well, I don't know - though Toyota, Volvo, and a few others I have driven will just die) can alter the computers enough to run with the timing essentially broken is actually a good thing.

His previous rear diff replacement - well, he has a CTS-V and likely loves to drop the clutch hard. I've never EVER taken out a rear diff because I try to not make the entire drivetrain slam against itself in first gear. This is basic manual transmission skills. And with 350+ HP, it's easy to stress it if you are as impatient as this guy seems to be.

Then again, Cadillac should know this type of driver exists and have a beefier one in the manual transmission models.

Yeah - but I'm going to wait for him to get his 3 series and watch the never-ending fun as he's in for minor things every other week. He *should* get a Lexus GS and be done with it. Or if he needs a manual transmission, get a 350Z/G35.

rockylee

Plekto,

He wants a fast car and the ones you listed below aren't in the same league.

Rocky