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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    If Cadillac would actually build something like the Sixteen, it would easily outclass Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maybach, etc.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    lemko, I 100% agree pal. The sixteen coupe and ULS Sedan, along with the V-12 lookin' exotic they had a few years ago would push Cadillac, to new heights. Perhaps one day we will see cars like that being built at GM. :shades:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I was reading in the 07' Navigator forum of how some tried to justify why they traded in their 07' Escalade for a 07' Navigator. :confuse: I'm scratching my head and can only come up with this conclusion. They are chronic car buyers. They were trying to justify their car purchase because the Escalade didn't have power running boards. Well the Navigator, doesn't have a rear view camera, so what gives. The Navigator, also doesn't have the interior quality and materials of the Slade, either. :surprise: I guess if you want to get worse gas mileage, lose 103 hp. and not have a refined machine like the slade, then perhaps the swap can be justified by the few options the slade doesn't have for the many the Navigator doesn't have. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    Maybe they dig the Navigator's groovy retro '70s instrument panel?
  • "Standard of the World" implies leadership and something that everyone else (i.e., the competition) aspires to equal.

    Given GM's record for the past 30+ years, I find it impossible to believe that its corporate culture is capable of conceiving of, much less producing, anything that is the "standard of the world."

    Neither the UAW - or the beancounters - would ever stand for it.

    GM aspires to mediocrity, nothing more. It is a rental car producer, in slow decline due to union expense and featherbedding coupled with short-sighted management.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    How would it outclass Rolls? The Rolls has a V12 with DOHCs, so a pushrod V16 is not better. The Rolls interior is wood and leather, while current Cadillacs tend to have lots of plastic. Rolls has a very long history of being a status symbol, and Cadillac would have to build a very fine Sixteen for decades to even begin matching the Rolls mystique. Cadillac simply does not have what it takes, the Eldorado Brougham of the late 50's would now be at the point of toppling the Rolls, and Mercedes would never have tried making something of the Maybach. But Cadillac dropped the Eldo Br when it was just getting started.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I think that you have it right. GM makes good middling cars and as long as they are not overpriced, they are a good buy.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,091
    >GM aspires to mediocrity, nothing more. It is a rental car producer

    Could your negative attitude have something to do with a bad experience with Saabs?
  • Actually I had a good experience with a 2000 SAAB 9-5, which was designed before GM took full control of the company.

    My terrible experience with a post-GM SAAB 2003 9-3 - an experience confirmed by Consumer Reports and others - did not create my poor opinion of GM, merely confirmed it.

    I worked for a multi-franchise car dealer from 1971-1996. Among their franchises (since the lates 1980's) was Cadillac / Oldsmobile and Chevrolet.

    What I saw was indifferent design, sloppy execution, sloppy assembly, cheesy interiors and "luck of the draw" reliability. In other words, vehicles clearly subject to beancounter final word and assembled by UAW hacks who couldn't care less, because they didn't think they had to (cheerfully oblivious as their numbers kept shrinking, their jobs being displaced by nonunion plants in the South).

    My experience with the 9-5 prompted me to take a chance, with some trepidation, on the 9-3 / Malibu / G-6.

    That experience taught me that not much has changed with GM since 1996, notwithstanding their current spin that they've "caught up" in quality.

    Any quick perusal of the black dots in Consumer Reports tells the real story ...
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Check to see if it has glass headlights.

    The 2000/2001 Saab 9-5s do. The newer ones have plastic that is shaped the same.

    Also check out the sills between the doors(the uprights/pillars) - it used to be anodized aluminum or painted steel. Now it's plastic. GM *and* Ford seem to know how to bean-counter all of the quality and ergonomics out of anything they touch. Like a big evil sponge.

    As long as there's more plastic than wood and cloth(leather seats don't count here as any maker can add them) in the interior, Cadillac doesn't get my vote. Not anymore.

    Plain and simple - plastic is cheap and NOT luxury.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    The Navigator, also doesn't have the interior quality and materials of the Slade, either. I guess if you want to get worse gas mileage, lose 103 hp. and not have a refined machine like the slade, then perhaps the swap can be justified by the few options the slade doesn't have for the many the Navigator doesn't have.

    Interesting rant, Rocky, for someone who has been defending Lincoln against Cadillac on the Lincoln board.

    But anyway, I have owned both. had a 99 navigator, an 02 escalade, and then an 03 navigator. Comparing the 02 Escalade to the 03 Navigator yielded an opinion that both trucks have different strengths. My Escalade had better climate control, more responsive and accurate, horrible navigation, downright useless. A smaller second seat area, and that damn folding 3rd seat that just flipped up, taking 25% of your luggage room. I traded it for the 03 Navigator because of the beautiful unique interior, the cooled seats, the independent rear suspension which made it ride so much better, wasn't impressed with the power running boards, so didn't get them, but the power folding 3rd row seats clinched the deal. The Escalade only had more power when towing, otherwise the 6.0L engine is kind of a dog off the line, and the Navigator felt stronger, drove better, and was much more technologically advanced, and Rocky, it had the gadgets that you love. Like the power liftgate.

    GM usually catches up with Ford and the Imports eventually, and they finally made some good strides this year, which I think puts their truck on par with the Navigator. They do have the back up camera, good Navigation finally, and a more peppy engine and the interior is nice, even though it's still just like a Tahoe, whereas the Navigator is unique. But they just can't get on board with the 3rd row seats, even though Ford figured it out on their Explorer 4 years ago.

    Between the two now, I would call it an even fight.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    GL450 SUV is the real winner. GM and Ford can fight for second place. :P
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    NO.

    Ain't gonna happen again for Cadillac. They've given up way too much ground to Lexus, BMW and Mercedes. Mercedes blew Cadillac out of the water in the 80's and BMW and Lexus have do so in the 90's till now. Cadillac doesn't have a flagship sedan to compete with the S-Class or Lexus LS. Most import luxury car buyers don't even consider Cadillac as one of their choices anymore. Cadillac has some nice cars for sure, particularly the V models, but you can't be a standard of the world when you're only really hot in a few markets and/or not even #1 in your home market.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I tend to agree with Merc, on the whole.
  • aldwaldw Posts: 82
    I wouldn't say that, the products Caddy has right now are on the right track, with a new 3 series fighter and enhancements to the STS, GM could easily make Caddy a worldbeater.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    True their products are on the on the right track, but that is a long way from being a world beater. No one company is going to beat Lexus, BMW and Mercedes at the things they all do best, especially not a bleeding GM. They don't have the money for a flagship to really show the world anything right now. The CTS is merely a contender in a class, as is the STS, and the latter not a very good one.

    GM is notorious for chasing a moving target while at the same time not concentrating on the real details.

    M
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I was defending the Lincoln MKZ and MKS against the competition. The Navigator OTOH, is a nice SUV, like I said but it lacks elegance, refinement and isn't as good as the Escalade or GL 450. The "Old and Tired" gas guzzling 5.4 V-8 was a embarrassment engine for ford to use. It has 300 hp. but feels more like 200 hp. :surprise: The Navigator, does have a few features not found in the Escalade, but the same can be said about the Escalade vs. Navigator. The Mercedes GL 450, is no doubt a nice SUV, but even it doesn't have the interior design, quality, gadgetry the Escalade, offers to its customers. It is more of a Status SUV, and one has to click the option box several times before you get into Escalade levels in equipment. I also raise eyebrows to the Mercedes supposed 335 hp engine running Escalade 0-60 times identical to the 403 hp. Slade. I personally think the Merc test was done with a stop watch, and the guy holding the stop watched clicked the button a bit prematurely like at 50 mph or they secretly used a Chip or programmer for the the Merc. :P WHATEVER, it just doesn't add up to me and I wouldn't put it passed Motor Trends anti-gm staff. :mad:

    I also will comment on some posters cheap shots at the UAW workers. Again, as a reminder when did the UAW assume responsibility for designing or engineering of GM vehicals ??????? I'm still waiting for my answer. ;) I also take the UAW workers not caring about the building of the vehicals with the tools, machinery, given to them as a insult because my family did/do care, and did the best job they could.

    So my point is this..... Lincoln and Cadillac, are turning their brands around. The Lincoln MKZ, no doubt will be a sales success and with a bit more more that is rumored to come in a couple of years will no doubt help it out. I also think Lincoln, needs to give customers a manual transmission option for the MKZ. The Lincoln MKS concept is a beauty. If it looks like the concept and if the rumors are true that Lincoln, is exploring even more gadgets to add the the already gadget filled MKS, we could have a benchmark if Lincoln adds that 3.7 Twin Turbo with over 350+ hp. It might not be as great as lets say a Lexus LS, or a Audi A8, in some peoples eyes but it will win plenty of consumers because it will offer the customer a premium value. The value concept started by Acura, has made that brand a winner. Acura, made a blunder by not giving the RL, competitive performance and did leave the 6-speed automatic and ventilated seats out of the equation.

    Cadillac, has a chance to not only topple what the MKZ, does well with the CTS, but they have a chance to pass by BMW's 335i. If I was GM, I'd take the Direct Injection 3.6 High Feature V-6 and add two turbo's to it. They already have made this engine and tested it in the Velite. The BMW 335i run 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. I'd make sure the CTS, does it in 4.7-4.8 range and pulls a .90 minimum on the skid pad. If GM, has to charge BMW 335i prices on a fully optioned CTS, to be the new benchmark then that is what they need to shoot for. The 2008' from what we've seen appears to have a much better interior. It now just needs the gadgets like ventilated seats, Mega-Watt DVD-Audio, voice recognition system w/ Navi, and perhaps a pre-collision, adaptive cruise, etc etc etc.

    The next STS, flat out needs a better quality interior and about 80 more horsepower. It also could use some more gadgets if they want to charge $60+K large ones.

    The DTS, needs RWD and needs to be in long wheel-base trim only. It needs to be a big-body and give the customer bigger than Mercedes S-class interior volume with reclining rear seats with heat, massage, ventilation. It also needs some more gadgetry and should chase Mercedes, Lexus big sedans.

    The SRX, is finally getting some much needed upgrades. It needs a shot of steroids, some more gadgetry, and it will blow the MKX, away in sales.

    The XLR, needs to be overhauled and GM, needs to take the Mercedes SL, and make the XLR, exceed every area of advantage the SL, has over it or otherwise they might as well scrap this idea. How bout adding a 6-speed manual option or F-1 inspired Paddle shifters with 500-600 horsepower ? The XLR, also needs to tone down those sharp edges since its more likely a conservative buyer will be cross shopping it with the SL.

    Rocky

    P.S. NV, you know you bought the Navigator, because of the power running boards. Well thats the conclusion I got when reading about the 07' Navigator, and the former owners trading down from a Slade to a Gator. :P Oops, as lemko, said it might of been this years case was the consumers wanted those retro instrument gauges. :confuse:
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Consumers NOT Reported, is more like it.....

    Isn't the bible that some of you consumers think it is. Whatever, we won't kick this dead horse again. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    LOL, whatever :P .....You know you'd rather be driving a Slade. At least you wouldn't have to worry about being stranded along side of the road yelling for help in a Escalade !!! :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    sls, What ?????

    Rolls Royce with their wimpy gas hawging V-12. Why buy a Rolls, when a Bently is the same thing only a bit better ?

    The Cadillac Sixteen would be the greatest 1,000 hp/1,000lbs tq. car ever made and could be driven as a daily driver unlike the Bugatti, which needs maintence every other day at Ten$ of thousand$ a pop. :P

    I'm with lemko, it would out class everything and would be "The Standard Of The Universe". :shades:

    Rocky
  • lol, How many Escalades do you think sell in Europe??? And the SRX as the Standard of CUV's? lol. Sales don't really back that conclusion up. I've looked at Kia's that had better interior quality than the CTS.

    And as far as performance is concerned, I don't care if Caddy had a 1000 hp, Autobahn eating monster with a 6-speed manual, sport suspension and a big fat whale tail a la 911 Porsche, if it is sharing a showroom floor with a Front wheel drive DTS sporting wire wheels, a landau roof and curb feelers, with some greasy slimeball salesman named "Slick rick" trying to sell me a car with an AARP discount, I still wouldn't go near a Caddy dealer.

    And a line of pickup truck based SUV's that were enrolled in a "Pimp my Ride" workshop is not how you "One-up" the competiton... Last I checked, Benz, BMW and Audi weren't scrambling to build an EXT fighter...

    Sorry, Cadillac will always be the "Standard of GM"... A Standard given by those who have never experienced what a real luxury performance BRAND brings to the table. It's more than just one or two cars mixed in with a bunch of duds.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    The last time a DeVille had wire wheel covers was 1993. Where the heck have you been? Curb-feelers, et al are AFTERMARKET. If you have a problem with them, blame the owner of the vehicle, not its manufacturer. I've seen plenty of pimped-out Bimmers, Benzes, and Lexi. My salesman had a professional demeanor and I was never offered an AARP discount. Get with the times!
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I agree "anything" is lost in the past and still hates GM, as he did in the 1970's or 80's. One of these days he will get bad service from his foreign car dealer and then what ?

    I guess everybody dislikes something and "anythings" bone is with GM.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,091
    >"Slick rick" trying to sell me a car with an AARP discount,

    What's wrong with AARP discounts. I've used them since 50. I'll bet if I stop at the BMW dealer they'll find an equivalent--maybe GARP discount oder Deutsche ARP.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    :D ROTF !!!!!! :D

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The Cadillac Sixteen could outclass everything, if, and only if, Cadillac builds it to outclass everything. However, GM in general, and Cadillac in particular, tends to build stuff to industry average rather than set new standards for the class. The Saturn Aura does indicate that GM may be changing. I am not sure how much of an improvement the 2007 SRX interior really is though.

    Bentley is now owned by Volkswagen, and is not the same thing as a Rolls anymore. Bentley does have two E's.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I know that sorry I had a typo

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Your discription of the dealer matches my experience with the local Nissan dealer. They called me after I advertized my Seville in the local paper, and are trying to sell me something, anything, because they have a potential customer for my Seville. :( :mad: :surprise: :sick:
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    wow....

    Rocky
  • Back in like 04' I drove a CTS with the 3.2? and a stick (Atrocious btw) and I actually ended up with a salesman who went by the name of Slick Rick! Slicked back gray hair, cheap polyester leisure suit, strong smelling cheap cologne... Ugh. I swear I was negotiating with Marlon Brando...

    btw Which Nissan are you looking at?
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