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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • That exact car with all the "Toys" was parked on the showroom floor next to the CTS that I was looking at at the time. And it was hubcaps, they were wire rims.

    I didn't look inside to see if there was a bedpan on the front seat though... :P
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    ROTF !!!! :D

    Your crazy man. :P

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    Dude, for the billionth time, all that SELF-DESTRUCTIVE ADD-ON JUNK IS AFTERMARKET! If you hate that stuff so much, blame the dealer or the customer with bad taste, not GM. No Cadillac comes that way from the factory. For wire wheel covers one has to assume there are steel wheels underneath. My base 1994 Cadillac Deville that I purchased in November 1993 was as plain as a Cadillac came that year and it nice aluminum wheels standard. Steel wheels with wire wheel covers weren't even an option.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    some of us know that lemko. Some people have such bad tastes and put aftermarket wire rims on nice cars like Cadillacs. :mad:

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,591
    GM should take a stand and publicly castigate the add on crap. It's in the best interest of their own image.

    GM can't control the dealers who add the junk, but they can make it clear that they don't support such image-killing accessories.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    Hopefully, guys who like that add-on garbage will either pass on or go to the retirement home for good. Trouble is, like street drugs, that stuff wouldn't be out there if there wasn't a market for it. You've got to admit, it does affect the opinion of the uninformed. Dealers should be strongly discouraged from selling this crap.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    They could control their dealers from adding that crap on it as a attempt to lure a certain buyer. It's just like some dealers trying to sell those faux convertible tops on the STS a while back. it looked tacky, and the dealer aftermarketed it. :mad:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I totally agree with you lemko. It's one thing for a customer to go out and aftermarket it. They don't have a brand image to uphold like a dealer.

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    There was a local dealer who would slap all that crap onto its used cars in a misguided attempt to boost profits on its pre-owned vehicles. The place has new owners and this practice has pretty much ceased.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    that's good. :)

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    The problem is that those "some people" are Cadillac (and Lincoln and sometimes Chrysler) dealers more often than not. I've never seen a Honda or Toyota dealer with new Accords and Camrys featuring giant wings, primer gray body kits, chrome altezzas, and neons. GM and Ford really should crack the whip on that sort of thing, but the franchise agreements probably disallow it.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    "Anything" always protests oldsters and their pimped-out Caddies and Lincolns. Forty years from now, today's young'uns will be driving Lexi and Avalons with spoilers, Altezza lights, ground effects, neon lights, and grapefruit-shooter exhausts as 2046's youth looks on in derision.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    LOL, yep.... :blush:

    Rocky
  • Why would a dealer waste his time and effort having that optional crap on a car and then park it in the showroom??? Obviously there must be SOME kind of market for it :confuse:

    Why? because, like Lincoln, the Cadillac marque still represents a stodgy, elderly, and pedestrian line of cars. And if it ain't cars, it's the over the top, gaudy, "blingbling" schoolbuses that have attracted the Rap artists and sportfigures of the country. Sure, there are V-series cars, but even those don't break the mold that Caddy has formed over the years.

    BOT, Seriously though, when you guys are defending Cadillac and aiming for "Standard of the World", what exactly are you aiming for? Standard of what World?

    Tuetonic Autobahn eating supersedans? I don't think Cadillac there....

    Ultra fast, sleek, supercoupes and convertibles like a Qvale Mangusta, Keonsigg (sp?), Bugatti Veryon, Carrera GT, Spyker C8, Mosler M12 Seriously... Caddilac? roflmao

    Hard core, offroad monsters softened by the finest leather, latest technological wizardry and amenities? The Escalade wouldn't stand a chance in a real offroading situation...

    Superlux cruisers like Rolls, bentley and Maybach?

    I don't think Cadillac when I think of ANY of the above criteria. And it is absolutely silly to argue they can be "THE STANDARD" when their is no definition to shoot for in the first place.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    Cadillac doesn't neatly fall into any category. It is its own singular make with its own singular qualities. A Cadillac is a sensible high-quality, ultra-reliable, solidly-built, competent luxury car that cradles the driver and occupants in comfortable luxury that can rapidly respond to any demand in acceleration or challenging driving condition.

    If any marque is becoming stodgy, elderly, and pedestrian, it's Lexus.
  • In your opinion yes. I could say the same about the Benzes I have owned as well. Thing is, the Merc also adds the element of performance and the techno-wizardry not found in a run o the mill GM'er.

    Germans build one hell of a road car.

    If any marque is becoming stodgy, elderly, and pedestrian, it's Lexus.

    I could agree with that one, a japanese Buick/Cadillac. Thing is, you get the quality and ergonomic aspects to show for it. Lexus quality is top notch. It's rich, warm and built very well. More of a "Standard" than Caddy... But if you want THE STANDARD, you turn to cars like Audi, Bentley and Rolls.

    Although, others will claim that Lexus is THE STANDARD for interior quality...
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    ...the techno-wizardry if it's not reliable. It kills my brother-in-law's S430 which is plagued by electrical gremlins. Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather do without all the high-tech gizmos and subsequent high repair costs.

    I'd agree that Lexus is the benchmark for interior quality but not so much design these days. Stepping inside a Lexus is sort of like "been there, done that" these days. They were pretty dazzling when they debuted.

    I like to keep my standards grounded in reality, therefore a Rolls or Bentley is out of the question. Anybody can build an awesome car if cost isn't a factor. Mercedes-Benz used to be like this. They'd build the car first and then put a price on it - and people were willing to pay it until Lexus flipped this whole paradigm on its ear. Now, that Mercedes has to build to a cost, it is hobbled in the quality and reliability department. Cadillac can build a car to cost and still remain pretty-much trouble-free.
  • I don't know. My Mercedes was pretty reliable, never gave me an ounce of trouble except for tires and brake maintainence. My wifes business mate has a CLS500 after having two perfectly flawless E500 4matic sedans (00, 03). Both were traded with over 130k on the clocks with minimal issue. The CLS now has something like 60k (Drives all over the place with the thing) and it is also flawless.

    So MB quality and reliability issues may be a bit exageratted in my experience. Wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

    I like to keep my standards grounded in reality, therefore a Rolls or Bentley is out of the question. Anybody can build an awesome car if cost isn't a factor.

    Exactly, but if you wanna be THE STANDARD, (whatever the hell that means anyways) you gotta be the end all, be all to the automotive universe. Cost is not factor here.

    Heck a Honda Civic could be the Standard of the world because it nails so many segments woth just one car. My S2000 could be a standard because how many 4 cylinder motors out there can hit 9000 RPM's reliably and still get 30mpg. A Kia Rio could be a standard because it is the cheapest brand new car out there.

    No, Standard of the world is a brand that all others aspire to. A brand that everyone looks to and says "Ya, I gotta have one of those". A brand that people would give their left nut just to own and treasure. Sorry, but outside the realm of GM fans, Caddy is not a brand that all others in the world look up to and want to emulate. Frankly there are SO many other carmakers out there now that just do the "Standard" thing a heck of a lot better. Have been for a long time.

    This isn't the 1950's anymore, that's all.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    ...then what IS the standard? Is it cost? Is the most costly car the standard? Anybody who knows anything about 1980s Rolls-Royces knew they were costly, but very unreliable, complex, outdated, and expensive to repair. Rolls-Royce and Bentley wouldn't even exist today if VW and BMW didn't come to their rescue. As a result, are BMW and VW the standard? Maybe BMW could be a standard, but I'd hardly aspire to be like VW.

    Is the fastest car the standard? Well, then every car should aspire to be one of those seldom-seen exotics you mentioned. It's pretty sad when only the uber-wealthy can own the car that's the standard. How about race cars? Shoot, funny cars and fuel dragsters are fast. Maybe NASCAR racers?

    Is a car that can go anywhere the standard? Well, then the crown belongs to Hummer.

    If "Ya, I gotta have one of those!" is the standard, it most definately and truly is Cadillac in my opinion, or if I'm being more sensible - a Buick.
  • So no aspirations outside of the GM'ers Lemko? I know you've mentioned in the past almost buying a Lexus LS but there must be something out there that you would love to have in your driveway?

    Get outside your "Practical" box Lemko. When you were a kid, didn't you have posters of dream cars on your walls? Mine, a 911 SC, and a Merc Gullwing were my faves. But I also had pics of Countach's, 308GTS and ZR-1 Corvettes. Even nowadays, my recording space I have pics of Aston Martin DB-4's and Porsche Spyders. Heck my desktop here at work has a pair of AMV8's decorating my screen. These were "Standards" in my book. Revolutionary, ahead of their time, forward thinking.

    Sorry, I see Caddy's (And Lexus for that matter) as run of the mill, generic transportation with a few perks. Nice cars, but nothing that has the competition shaking in their boots to match or out-do.
  • aldwaldw Posts: 82
    After reading and seeing this, I do know Cadillac is far closer to the Standard of the World than the naysayers are capable of acknowledging:

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/country/acf/newsID/2061110.009/cadillac/cad- illac-sls-at-auto-china-2006
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,154
    ...to anything outside a new Cadillac or Buick, it's a classic 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s model. Other cars I would like are something like a 1961-65 Lincoln Continental or even a 1960 Imperial Crown limousine by Ghia. A 1957 Chrysler 300-C would be another choice. I'd also consider just about any 1960s Mopar or GM muscle car. One Mercedes I would truly be comfortable with is something like a 1991 560SEL. This car represents M-B when it was truly at the top of its game.
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 326
    I agree with you that Cadillac is turning the ship around slowly. The CTS was/is an okay car. The problem with it is the interior which is blown away by Lexus, Acura, MB, Audi and even BMW. The new STS is a pretty nice car and it has a better interior. Clearly, this is a step forward but Lexus has a new GS, the 5 series has been replaced, and the Infiniti M has been remodeled after only a few unsuccessful model years. Therefore, it seems as if Cadillac is always playing catch up.

    For some reason, I don't think that Cadillac wants to compete with Lexus or BMW. Maybe it is because they feel that they have to price their cars cheaper (after discounts and rebates) than the other luxury brands or maybe they feel that they can't bring in a better car a cheaper price.

    Lastly, I just don't get the DTS. Is Cadillac still trying to lure former Oldsmobile buyers? What is the competition for this car, the Avalon? A person under 40 would not be be caught dead in this car.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    The SLS is a step in the right direction, but it also illustrates the contempt that GM and Ford have for their home market. China gets the SLS, Royaum, and a good LaCrosse, while we get underwhelming semi-efforts that seem to exist primarily to keep the dealer network from suing.
  • Meh. It is no secret that GM is doing well in China. How bout the homeland? The all new STS sales are weak, the SRX bombed, the DTS is the same ol same ol and the CTS is waiting a redo. The XLR is no match for the SL even with the V-series which nobody is going to shell out 6 figures for a Corvette. The Escalade is Caddy's saving grace at the moment because the Rap world and the NBA think Excess + Gaudy = Class.

    Seems to me that if you can't even make it in your home country, you've got a problem.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    I'll go you one further: my grandfather is 71 and he said HE wouldn't be caught dead in this car. ;)
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The DTS is the last of the FWD Cadillac's. In the mid-eighties GM went to FWD for their large sedans to greatly improve fuel economy. At the time that they were designed, this was a good plan. The DTS will probably continue in production until about 2010, when a replacement might make sense. The replacement will probably be a RWD platform.
  • sidvsidv Posts: 63
    I really doubt GM can make Cadillac any sort of meaningful world standard anytime soon. Thirty odd years of bean counter, cars-as-a-commodity mentality ruling the culture instead of pride in making stellar automobiles fueled by innovative engineering has taken its toll. There's just too much negative inertia and the competition has come too far, too fast, since the advent of Lexus and Infiniti and (some) European marque's competitive responses.

    Of course anything is possible given enough time but current dynamics at GM and the market don't bode well for Cadillac making the great strides it would take for Cadillac to become a "world standard", whatever that is.
  • was it ever the world standard? If it was, the the answer to will it be again is no....

    Gotta go, I smell 1487 coming........
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Now I seen where you say that others are living in the past when it comes to Cadillac, but you're doing the same thing when it comes to Mercedes.

    The W126 560SEL was a great car, but today's S550 surpasses it any way you could think of. Sure the outgoing W220 S430 wasn't Mercedes at its best, but this ranting about how badly Mercedes has fallen is just as tired and outdated as people harping about wire wheels and cloth tops on Cadillacs.

    You should take a look as the CLS, SL, CL or S-Class, then you'll know that you're living in the past when it comes to Mercedes. The new S and lastest SL have proven (so far with the S) be those very standards that Cadillac doesn't have a chance in hell of matching.

    M
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