Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

15152545657121

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Bingo! A 3 series sporty Cadillac coupe/sedan will get the younger buyer in earlier to the Cadillac family.

    This is exactly what Toyota does...they walk you in from your first car as a college kid, your $12,000 Scion, up to your first young family sedan, your Camry, and as you prosper up through your Lexus 300 series to your ultimate Benz/Cadillac/BMW equivalent, your Lexus 460. Toyota is also clever enough to badge their cars as Lexus at the certain price point where "entry-level luxury" starts.

    Besides, Cadillac is already at the other luxury makes "entry-level" price point. It's already "cheap". What it isn't, is sporty or youthful in its products (yet).

    Cheapest BMW -- $32,400 MSRP

    Cheapest Lexus 33,470

    Cheapest Cadillac $29,825

    Cheapest Benz -- $29,650

    So the idea would be to convince a young buyer that a Cadillac can be exciting to drive, and then work them up the ladder as they prosper.

    Or, a second strategy would be the Lexus approach, where you get outstanding reliability and luxury for a good price. By "outstanding", that means better than anyone else, not 3rd or 5th.

    I think Lexus has won the Longterm Dependability Award for what....12 years in a row, something like that?
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    BEFORE the Oil Shock by two years:

    President Nixon has long been worried that the U.S. is losing out in world markets because domestic labor costs are inflating so fast and kicking prices up so high. With that in mind, he stretched his usual hands-off approach to private pricing matters just a bit last week and called into the White House leaders of the two sides in the current steel-labor negotiations. He gave them both an innocuous pep talk, urging them to make a settlement that would allow the steel industry to remain at least somewhat competitive in the world. Budget Chief George Shultz assured newsmen that the President "wasn't trying to tell them what to settle for." The Administration is resigned to a steel deal that will push up labor costs by at least 10% a year—and give workers in other industries another inflationary target to aim for.

    Several key indicators show just how badly these inflationary settlements are hurting the U.S. Items: > Steel imports in May hit1,800,000 tons—an amount equal to 16% of the nation's overall steel market. The total was the second highest in history, topped only in August 1968, when customers were also hedging against a strike. > Sales of imported cars in June surged to a historic high of 149,000, capturing 16.1% of the U.S. market, or well over one-quarter more than a year ago. In the year's first six months, sales of Volkswagens dipped slightly to 289,000, but that decline was more than made up by the incredible rise of Japanese cars. Toyotas rode up 57%, to 140,000 cars sold, and Datsuns jumped 136%, to 99,000. Japanese cars are selling fast because of high quality and low price, and their manufacturers benefit notably from the relatively moderate cost of Japanese steel (automaking steel sells for an average of $156 a ton in Japan v. $200 a ton in the U.S.).


    What U.S. Producers are up against
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    These are the people who probably have issues but either don't want to mention it, or Toyota tells them it is normal breakage/maintenance.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    That LS400 should have good reliability. There's nothing left to fail that hasn't been replaced? No wonder Lexus does well on reliability-you already replaced everything!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you don't mind squeaks, rattles, stalling on the freeway, sludge, defective brakes now and then, buy a Toyota. All problems that dealers have looked at and told the owners it was normal. These all from posts here on Edmund's. We still have not heard from a Caddy owner with a problem in the last 5 years. They all must be out on the road with a big grin on their face. While those with Toyotas are busy GM bashing, while their car is in the shop.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    To quote Abe Lincoln when told by his cabinet that General Grant was a no-good drunk, he replied: "Then give all the other generals whatever he's been drinking".

    Maybe GM should install sludge at the factory? It might help sales, if it works for Toyota ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The engine and transmission are rock solid. It was struts, brakes, leaky valve covers, gas gauge module, airbag sensor, water pump, rear view mirror etc etc. Yes $1200 to replace a defective rear view mirror. $1200 to replace a gas gauge sending module. I think I will scan them all in and post on my Carspace. For those that think that Lexus is perfection. Just turned 88k miles. I believe she had under 10k miles when the 3 year warranty ran out. That's when they start getting those $$$$ in their eyes at a ToyLex dealer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You deny that Toyota covered up a serious steering issue last year on close to a million vehicles? Why are they exempt from your wrath?
    I have not figured out your angle yet. I am just here to keep you GM Bashers at bay until Rocky gets back online :)

    I cannot imagine myself plunking down my cash on a Lexus or Cadillac sedan. I just like the local Caddy dealer as much as I despise the Lexus dealer. That and Escalade is much roomier, tows more, hauls more, gets better mileage and is a LOT faster than the LX470. Oh, and not as overpriced. The Escalade could be considered the "Standard of Excellence" in SUVs.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    We still have not heard from a Caddy owner with a problem in the last 5 years.

    Just stop the nonsense please....

    Got to the CTS CTS-V forum and do a search on the word "Problem"

    CTS CTS-V forum

    10 pages worth of CTS/CTS-V posts with the word problem. I'd post the search link directly, but the software here won't do it.

    In my trade we have a saying "Accusation of the accuser does not prove the innocence of the accused".

    To paraphrase it in car terms, "Saying that Toyotas aren't so great doesn't make GM cars any better".

    Tell us what you think that GM can do to increase sales and stop whining about Toyota. Chanting "Toyota ain't so great -they're just as bad as GM" isn't going to sell any cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm just saying that Toyota is tremendously successful and who can argue with that?

    Encouraging a company to excellence isn't "bashing", or if it is, then god bless America. :P
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Well, since you insist on comparing Cadillac Warranties to Cadillac warranties

    Business Week March 7 2007 Cadillac Warranties

    And regarding your statement on your personal experience on Lexus warranty:

    The engine and transmission are rock solid. It was struts, brakes, leaky valve covers, gas gauge module, airbag sensor, water pump, rear view mirror etc etcYes $1200 to replace a defective rear view mirror. $1200 to replace a gas gauge sending module. I think I will scan them all in and post on my Carspace. For those that think that Lexus is perfection. Just turned 88k miles. I believe she had under 10k miles when the 3 year warranty ran out.

    Are you sure you bought it from LEXUS? Because the warranty information doesn't seem to match up with your story somehow....

    LEXUS SPECIFIC

    Bumper to Bumper Warranty
    The coverage lasts for 48 months or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. Wheel alignment and balancing, however, are covered for 12 months or 20,000 miles, whichever comes first.

    This warranty covers repairs and adjustments needed to correct defects in materials or workmanship of any part supplied by Lexus

    Powertrain Warranty
    The Lexus Powertrain Warranty lasts 72 months or 70,000 miles, whichever comes first. Except for the situations listed on the Basic Warranty page, this warranty covers repairs needed to fix defects in materials or workmanship of any component listed below:

    Engine
    Cylinder block and head and all internal parts, timing belt and cover, flywheel, oil pan, water pump, fuel pump, engine mounts, engine control computer, seals and gaskets.

    Transmission and Transaxle
    Case and all internal parts, torque converter, clutch cover, mounts, engine control computer, seals and gaskets.

    Front-Wheel-Drive System
    Driveshafts, axle, hub, bearings, seals and gaskets.

    Rear-Wheel-Drive System
    Differential carrier assembly, driveshaft, axle carrier, axle case, axle bearing, axle shaft, seals and gaskets.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    That may soon change with the new LX570 on the way.

    Um I think that the QX56 or Armada should be the Standard of Excellence in Luxurious SUVs.

    I like the Escalade and all but 60k to leave to 65lb seats at home is ridiculous. Why not just buy the QX-56 or Navigator which both have Power folding 3rd row seats and similar Blingage (Navigator) or features (QX56 has standard Nav w/ backup camera).

    Please don't say the whole American thing because the Lincoln is a ford product and the QX56 is built in Canton, Mississippi and you cant get more southern than that(unless moving to Florida...) and no offense.

    -Cj
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are right it was 4 yrs 50k miles. That must have made her feel real good with the first big expense at 46837 miles. The AC went out. Cost to repair with rebuilt parts $2327.67. Not everyone buys a car to drive a lot of miles. It would be nice if they had some longevity to go along with the mileage. I will post the dealer invoice later. For the skeptics on the forum. I have a folder an inch thick here from when it was delivered 10/02/89. Lots of warranty work on the suspension. My wife told me she almost gave it back the first year because it handled so poorly.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have not checked out the QX56 yet. Not thrilled with the pictures. I would pull the third row as I did with my Suburban and store it until I sold the vehicle. The Armada is ugly to both my wife and myself. I never gave the Navigator much thought. Our first choice is still the MB GL320 CDI. And my wife likes it. The only problem is it is made in America. :( We wanted to do the European delivery.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ok, I must take back some of my rant. I have now gone back in this pile of invoices from Bob Baker Lexus. This file is no less than an inch thick with dates & times the LS400 was at the dealer. You may consider it OK that it went 10 years and 47k miles with out a major repair. There were many $300 to $400 service charges over that 10 years. All the struts and shocks were replaced under warranty. Plus several pieces I could not ID on the invoices. When I came on to the scene my wife had a list from Bob Baker Lexus of items they claimed needed replacement. It was over $5000 on a 12 year old car. Nothing major, airbag sensor, fuel gauge module, rearview mirror, a front strut. I went on the search for an independent and found TLC in San Diego. They did all that was needed for $1100. You may think it is OK that the dealer was willing to take advantage of a widow like that. I DON'T! So Excuse me if I am not a fan of Lexus and their dealer network. It gets better. The brakes were not working smoothly. We took it into TLC and had all pads, bushings and rotors turned for $470. Guess what Bob Baker did the last brake job with after market parts. Not genuine Lexus pads and bushings.
    PS
    My wife thought they were honest and that was the price to keep her car in good shape.

    If Cadillac dealers treat their customers like our Lexus dealer they deserve to go broke.

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    This is an interesting article about Cadillac. It's a bit dated, but that's good because then we get to see in hindsight which predictions did and didn't happen. But the "vision" for the company, some of the historical recollections, and the discussions about challenges for Cadillac are as good today as they were in 1999 when the article was written.

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_1999_Sept/ai_57165169/pg_1
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And how much worse would their image be if they came out with a half Saab/half Cadillac joke like the BLS?

    I actually kink of like the looks of the BLS. It's not the size that's the issue, it is the quality of the car. My Audi A4 was a great car. If Caddy could make a car that had the same interior quality and handling as the Audi it would do wonders for their image.

    But you're probably right, I suspect that the current BLS is not up to that level. Too bad.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    My wife told me she almost gave it back the first year because it handled so poorly.

    Why in the world would anybody buy a Toyota or Lexus for good handling?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Holy smoke! $1,200 for a rearview mirror? Which rearview mirror - the one on the door or the inside one?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The inside mirror. I think Bob Baker has this $1200 fixation. They wanted the same amount to repair the airbag warning and the fuel gauge module. That was when I found this great independent shop. Unlike Bob Baker he uses all Lexus OEM parts. And charges less than half the price. OH, and the airbag warning was just in need of a computer reset.

    As far as handling goes. My wife owned all German cars up to that time. She wanted to try the new Lexus. It was advertised as being better. Lexus was responsive to her wishes and changed much of the suspension as I am seeing in the file she has kept. The car handles nicely. Though not in a class with the 2005 Passat I had.

    Because this thread has become a comparison of Cadillac to the other luxury brands I felt it was necessary to keep things in perspective. All car makers have faltered from time to time. Even the mighty Mercedes is fighting to regain the respect it once had.

    From reading many posts on Edmund's I get the impression that most folks think that a car is good if it lasts 5 years and 100k miles. To me a good car is one that lasts 20 years and 100k miles without spending a fortune to maintain it.

    I assume your "89" Cadillac is in good condition. How much have you spent over the years keeping it that way?
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    I thought the Cadillac article was very interesting. One thing it shows is how long it takes to engineer a turn-around. The seeds of the current changes Caddy is showing were set almost 10 years ago, and the efforts are just now beginning to show fruits.

    I think that it will take another 10 years to complete the recovery and and even then it's not a sure thing.

    One thing I've thought about for Cadillac is the Chrysler 300 stratagem - when I saw the 300, the first thing I thought was "That big, powerful AMERICAN car should have been a Cadillac!"

    Take the CTS and widen it, lengthen it, and lower it and what would you have?

    image

    A REAL Cadillac

    I think that the 300 has shown that Americans want big powerful cars. Give the people what they want!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Take the CTS and widen it, lengthen it, and lower it and what would you have?

    A lowered STS.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Not big enough! Not Long enough!

    image

    This is America, Man!

    Think BIG!

    Think CADILLAC!


    image
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    This is the 8th year of the 21st century, not the post war 50s and 60s.

    Auto industry is a-changin' and people's tastes are a-changin' as well. As the baby boomers starting to retire and replace the "greatest generation" in the auto market the big ole' all-American boulevard cruisers aren't going to get many sales. Especially since the boomers are heavily influenced by the more nimble, tightly-built, FE imports.

    Let's face it, the good ole' glory days of big American cars are over and GM knows it. That's why all the new GM entries (including Caddy's) are more and more like the imports. As matter of fact, the hottest new GM in recent months, the G8, is borrowed directly from Holden Australia.

    There is nothing wrong to remember the good ole' times but getting blinded by the past success and the inability to catch up to the competitors will ultimately kill the American auto industry as we know it. I am glad to see Caddy heading the right direction to solidify its place as THE American luxury brand. IMO it is one model away (an entry level luxury performance sedan) to be competitive with the big boys.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    That is one ugly SUV as is the Toyota/Lexus. This is one area where they always seem to be behind. I don't see much need for a power third row seat. It is kind of a gimmick if you ask me.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    IMO it is one model away (an entry level luxury performance sedan) to be competitive with the big boys.

    Why not leave that for Pontiac? GM has the brands to fill out that Toyota lacks. I think Cadillac should consider dropping a couple models that do not sell or make money and concentrate on ONE great luxury car with variations such as couple and convertible, plus one luxury SUV. I do not see the advantage to each brand having 10 models that are the same as the other GM brands. Let Buick handle the mid sized entry luxury cars and CUVs.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Because Pontiac is NOT a luxury brand and the entry level luxury sedan market is a HOT segment right now even though you think they cheapen a brand's image.

    Without an entry level entry it is hard for Caddy to lure in "younger" buyers and develop them into long time loyal customers. The current Caddy offerings have nothing to excite the 20 and 30-year-olds. Once they got comfortable behind the steering wheel of a 3er, C, IS, GS or TL then it'll be awfully hard for Caddy to win them back.

    Will R&R and Bentley's images be cheapened if they start to make a 5-series fighter? You betcha. However, Cadillac will be perfectly fine with an entry model 3er-fighter.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To me there is not an SUV on the market that is as visually appealing as the last generation Tahoe/Suburban. I buy an SUV for Utility. The SUV/CUVs on the market today are not very good looking and most lack the rugged utility they once had. within 2-3 years the plastic bumpers look like s---. Mostly high priced junk to my way of thinking. Lots of fancy gadgets that will fail about 3 weeks after the warranty expires. All I see in American auto showrooms today is planned obsolescence. Designed to keep the masses making a car payment into perpetuity.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I guess we have to disagree. I see lots of young guys driving Escalades with 22" rims every day. Rarely see an older person driving one. If the Slade does good for them maybe they will want a luxury Cadillac when they get older. Myself I do not understand how you can like a sedan after having a good SUV.

    I might agree if GM were to get rid of a couple brands. I just think there is too much replication in the GM household. You end up with poor offerings like the AZtek and Cimarron. I don't see a need for Chevy to be building trucks along with GMC.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I see lots of young guys driving Escalades with 22" rims every day.

    Those are not the crowd I am talking about. If you don't know what I meant by that then I guess our generation gap is too huge for this discussion to continue.

    I am talking about regular young professionals (which there are a lot of them out there) whom just started their careers and want to treat themselves with a nice (not over the top like the Escalade with the 22) entry level luxury car.

    Myself I do not understand how you can like a sedan after having a good SUV.

    Because SUV handles like a POS.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Pontiac is going to Oldsmobile heaven soon enough I think.

    A corporation can bleed just so much before it has to downsize even further.

    Chev/Cadillac/Buick may have to hold the fort for GM in the near future in the US market....I could even see Buick biting the dust. Chevy and Cadillac could just spread their model ranges up and down, or Chevy Buick and Cadillac could become 3 series, 5 series, 7 series, or A4, A6 and A8, or C class, E class and S class.

    Too many products, too few buyers.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Louiswei -

    "...the big ole' all-American boulevard cruisers aren't going to get many sales. That's why all the new GM entries (including Caddy's) are more and more like the imports"

    I respectfully disagree. Cadillac's problem is the Harley Davidson problem - Cadillac can't "out-BMW" BMW, out-Mercedes Mercedes, or out-Lexus Lexus, just as Harley couldn't compete with the superior Japanese bikes.

    Cadillac has to create its own market, just as Harley did.

    Big cigar-smoking boys in rich kid's toys. There's a huge market (Luxury car huge) for big vehicles. Most people driving SUVs are driving them because they're the only thing left with American size interiors left.

    The Chrysler 300 sales show that there's a market for big cars.

    I think there's a market for a 'real' Cadillac. Continuing to say "we're just as good as BMW" only leads to unfavorable comparisons.

    So, take what's unique to Caddy and use it. Nothing succeeds like excess. That's why Hummers sell.

    SO:
    American-butt seating for six. 500 HP V-8 cruisers with burbling exhausts. Enough leather to build a three-room tent. Interior switches that you couldn't break with a hammer Deep Chrome plating that you could swim in. 8 coats of paint.

    No more half-axed European FWD cars even if the bodies are flown in from Italy.

    And charge for it.

    You may not like the color, but you can sure see the quality in THIS interior:

    image

    Finally this quote:

    "...hard for Caddy to lure in "younger" buyers and develop them into long time loyal customers"

    I believe that this is the wrong approach for Cadillac. A Caddy should be a car to aspire to - a car that not just anyone can afford. BMW has to do that because they have to support the whole company. GM has other car lines to do that. If you think about it, what you are proposing is the equivalent of Toyota folding Lexus back into Toyota by making them a full line company. I think everyone here (even those who like to drive them) think the IS300 was a mistake for the Lexus line. It should be the top end Scion.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You take a trip cross country in a Lexus IS, I will take the Escalade. See who is the most relaxed after the Journey. I see the cars you are talking about for street racers. Lexus has not broken the Yuppie bond with BMW with that car.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The IS300 was a mistake for Lexus but not the new IS250/350. They are currently the 3rd best selling Lexus right now.

    Caddy is a mainstream luxury car manufacture not a niche brand like Harley Davidson whom is into building expensive toys for grown-ups.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You take a trip cross country in a Lexus IS, I will take the Escalade.

    If it's only me and another passenger going on the cross country trip then I'll take my IS. If I am taking more people then I'll go to Enterprise and rent a Expedition or Escalade. I am not going to sacrifice my daily driving enjoyment for the rarely cross-country trip.

    The IS is totally comfortable for 2 people going on a long road trip.

    Lexus has not broken the Yuppie bond with BMW with that car.

    That's not the case for me, I was on the 3er/TL/IS fence before decided on the IS.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well think of Cadillac as just a bigger Harley Davidson with essentially the same problem that Harley faced.

    Harley could not, and still cannot, build a motorcycle as good as the Japanese; nor will Cadillac ever build a BMW or a Lexus. That's not the point. The point is to build a product that sells and appeals to as many people as possible, however you wish to define "appeal". The Harley did not have to become a Kawasaki or a Yamaha, and Cadillac doesn't have to become a Lexus. It can be its own version of "success".

    Of course, like Harley, Cadillac does have to meet certain expectations. Harleys have tried to modernize their products and done a pretty good job; they've honed their marketing skills to perfection; their styling is very appropriate for the home market and their products have excellent resale value.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Caddy doesn't have to out-BMW BMW and out-Lexus Lexus. The current CTS and STS are good examples that Cadillac is establishing it's own direction. It does, however, need to be competitive with other luxury manufactures at ALL FRONTS. That means it cannot abandon one of the most important segments in the luxury market which is the entry level luxury sedan.

    Maybe I wasn't being clear, in being competitive with others I do not mean Caddy should mimic what others are doing. But it does need to offer its own entry in order to get a chunk of that market and establish its name to the rather undiscovered demographic (for Cadillac that is).
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    For the inside mirror?!?!? AAAGGGHHH!!! Geeze, one of the big outside folding mirrors with autodimming, curbviewing, etc. on my Seville STS only costs $535 for the whole assembly!

    I barely spent anything on my 1989 Cadillac Brougham aside from the usual fluid changes, belts, brake pads, filters, etc.; certainly nowhere even remotely near $18K!!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    he got a lemon apparently and you got a good one. Luck of the draw?

    I think Corvette is a good example of "doing your own thing" and yet matching the imports without copying them. True Corvette is a small niche but it maintains a very high level of value and performance while maintaining a distinctly American identity. It would be great if Cadillac could pull something like this off---not a sports car, but a product line with this level of distinctiveness and, generally speaking, respect for its strong points and no great complaints about its shortcomings.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Without an entry level entry it is hard for Caddy to lure in "younger" buyers and develop them into long time loyal customers. The current Caddy offerings have nothing to excite the 20 and 30-year-olds. Once they got comfortable behind the steering wheel of a 3er, C, IS, GS or TL then it'll be awfully hard for Caddy to win them back.

    This is exactly the sort of old-school crumudgeon-esque thinking that company board rooms are full of.

    The reality is today, there's almost zero brand loyalty among the younger buyers. They buy their first cars as cheap things to get around in and when they get money, they jump ship for what they wanted all along, regardless of brand.

    Cadillac has nothing to gain here, because the idea of "give them a cheap piece of junk and let them aspire to trade up" is as dead as using carbs and velour seats. A cheap entry-level car also lowers the image. One previous post here went on and on about giving them bling and chrome and big V8s and... and it's exactly the right thing to do.

    Harley tried this a few years ago with their Sportster. And it was a total non-seller compared to their major lines. It didn't help their bottom line one bit, though I suppose they will still offer it for a few more years until they realize that they should just build better big bikes instead of trying to get back into the small cruiser market.

    GM's current leadership figured this out finally. So, don't expect a tiny Cadillac to ever be sold in the U.S.
  • docrwdocrw Member Posts: 94
    I don't have a gripe with the content of any of your posts, you are free to your own opinions as is everyone else. I do have to say that you should stop using "whom" when "who" is appropriate. Whom is used when referring to the object of a preposition, "To Whom it may concern", or "To whom am I speaking" it should not be used in every subordinate clause. If you can not replace whom with him/her/them then do not use it. For example, the phrase "whom is into building expensive toys for grown-ups" would be written "they are into building expensive toys for grown-ups" at the start of a sentence, not "them are into...". I don't presume to know your motives for using whom so I will not speculate, merely ask you politely to refrain.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So this has turned into a grammar forum hmm?

    Okay...

    I don't presume to know your motives for using whom so I will not speculate, merely ask you politely to refrain.

    I was suppose to have a "motive" for using "whom"? Wow, that's a first...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Y'all please take it to a grammer forum. We ain't gonna waste time talking about chat typos, yo.

    Funny how "grammer" isn't in my spell checker. :P
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Entry level models = cheap piece of junk.

    BMW has its 3er starting at mid $30K and topping off at $50K
    MB has its C-class starting at high $30K and topping off at almost $60K :surprise:
    Lexus has its IS starting at low $30K and topping off at over $45K
    Infiniti has its G starting at low $30K and topping off at around $43K

    If they are considered as cheap piece of junk then what should we call the entries from Chevy, Honda and Toyota?

    Again, Cadillac isn't more prestigious than any of the brands mentioned above so by having an entry level model isn't going to cheapen the image a bit.

    Also, wouldn't a satisfied Cadillac owner be looking at another Cadillac first when it's time for him/her to move up?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I think that is the problem: maintaining a distinctly American identity. Aside from the Corvette, Mustang, 300, and Camaro, are their any "American" cars left? The Harley is an EXCELLENT example. As bad as they were 25 years ago, they sold because they had an identity, and people could relate to it. Now that identity is SO well known and respected Harley sued Honda because their exaust note sounded too much like a Harley, and they claimed it was patent protected (I assume they have a patent on it). I have a '65 Buick Wildcat convertible. This car can't really hold a candle to todays cars in the sense that it has a carb, points, AM radio, no air bags, lap belts, etc. Yet, it DOES have that American personality of a boulevard cruiser. Low, soft growl at idle, floats on air ride, seats 6 (comfortable ones, too) lots of chrome, and 8 MPG around town. :P I don't think that people want THAT type of car anymore. It could be because people don't have that "relationship" of checking the oil, replacing caps, rotors, points, adjusting the dwell, etc, on a Sat. afternoon like they once did. I don't know. A motorcycle is still a toy, and cars are more like appliances than ever, and people just don't want a hassle.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "The current Caddy offerings have nothing to excite the 20 and 30-year-olds."

    Are you kidding me. The CTS was designed as a young persons car. The others including the SUV's, SRX cross-over could be considered youth oriented if they have the money. The foreign offerings you listed above are all over $30,000 so the CTS would fall within those.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The LS400 was bought in October 1989, first MY for Lexus. They obviously tried hard to please her with all the work requests for warranty work. Being the first year I would expect problems. That is not my gripe with Lexus. It is the rip-off after the warranty expired. Many here would not have clue as they trade the car in before the warranty is up. Just so they can always have a new car and make those payments. I guess the lesson is, find an independent shop before your warranty expires.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Louiswei is absolutely right, and the rest of all ya'll are all 100% wrong.

    A good, well executed, well built, and competitively priced entry level luxury/sport model is an excellent way to attract younger (less than filthy rich) buyers.

    One thing Louiswei forgot to mention is Audi doing pretty well as a small time player in this market, and carving a slice of the market for loyal buyers and owners. People that buy Audi's are usually very satisfied with their purchase. The A3 and A4 do what they do very well. Now, if the A3 didn't seem like higher end Audi's in the way it drove and felt inside, then it would cheapen the image. However, because Audi didn't try to cheapen the car too much to make tons of money, they hit the nail on the head; and really have no competition in the upper 20K to 30K market, and even less so if you go to 5 doors.

    When Mercedes or BMW bring their 1 series or A class, they better do it right or it won't work. However, Caddy making a smaller entry level luxury vehicle would be sort of like Honda deciding to make a Hummer competitor.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sounds to me like you disagree with louiswei, from this statement. Or am I misunderstanding this statement?

    However, Caddy making a smaller entry level luxury vehicle would be sort of like Honda deciding to make a Hummer competitor.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't think Caddy should have a 1-series/A-class/A3 competitor but definitely a 3-series/C-class/A4 fighter. The original CTS served that purpose well (although it's more like 5-series size wise) but since Caddy is moving the new CTS up-market they do need another model to fill that spot.
Sign In or Register to comment.