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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    I doubt Lexus, and especially Infiniti, will find much success in Europe as Europeans are even more fiercely loyal to their own luxury makes.
  • mediapushermediapusher Posts: 305
    Gagrice-

    And my point is, when they get to the point where they can afford a Cadillac, trust me they won't buy a Cadillac, they'll buy a luxury Lexus or BMW.

    -- mediapusher
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    Cadillac has a long way to go in terms of market visibility. Even in the USA, aside from selected Cadillac-heavy cities, the Cadillac is a non-entity. It's not even a player in the San Francisco Bay Area for instance. It sometimes seems as rare as a Maserati on the streets.

    MODERATOR

  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    mariner7: A few years ago, Caddy tried to set up a dealer network in continental Europe. I don't think anything came out of it, because I haven't heard about it since.

    GM decided to sell Cadillacs through its established dealer networks in Europe - either Saab or Opel/Vauxhall, if I recall correctly.

    And I don't know if Infiniti and Lexus will necessarily succeed in Europe, as Europeans don't have the same regard for Japanese cars that North Americans do.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,892
    Well just maybe you are wrong. I have owned Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Lexus vehicles. They were all more trouble than the last 5 GM products I have owned. My wife switched from Mercedes to Lexus in 1990. She is ready to buy another MB or Cadillac. She does not like the direction Lexus has taken. It seems to me that all the folks buying the Japanese cars you have mentioned are interested in is how fast the car goes from 0-60. Would that not be the very rationale you have accused GM buyers of using.
  • punkr77punkr77 Posts: 183
    I think the biggest difference between the American cars and their foreign competition, and why people tend to like either one or the other, is in the way the cars feel. American cars feel big and heavy and handle that way too, the Japanese cars feel light and tight and handle that way. The German cars are kind of in between the two, with Mercedes leaning more towards the American and BMW leaning more towards the Japanese.

    I've driven Accords, Camry's, and Avalons and I've driven several of their American rivals and they all fall more or less along those lines. It's kind of like a mattress, some prefer firm and some prefer soft.

    I'm suprised that all the Japanese cars have been more trouble than the American cars. My experience has been the exact opposite. My 3 American cars were all much more troublesome thatn my 2 Japanes cars. My Mazda 929S and Honda Civic neither had any problems at all other than routine stuff (the Civic had all the factory parts other than belts, filters and tires at 100K). My parents both had similar experiences. Out of curiosity, how long do you keep you're cars?

    As far as car advertising goes, American makes have the worst Advertising. It's all tough guy macho crap. The Hummer comercials always make me gag. Interestingly, Toyota is starting to use that tactic with it's trucks (trying to appeal to traditional American buyers maybe). Car comercials in general seemed aimed at people with a 5th grade education (and maybe 3rd for truck buyers).
  • poncho167poncho167 Posts: 1,178
    I agree. It's hard to believe all these people supporting Japanese companies like they were our own. Right again with the BMW comment.
  • punkr77punkr77 Posts: 183
    Call me a traitor, but I don't look at GM and the rest of Detroit like they're one of "our own" any more. Just because their headquarters are here, doesn't make me feel better about buying from them when they're building more and more cars in Mexico, Canada, and Korea out of more and more parts made in Japan, China, etc. Doubly so after my ownership experiences with the last four Detroit cars I own(ed).

    GM's problems are of their own making. If, as many feel, GM is actually building better cars than Japan then people will buy them. That is unless you think the American consumer is a bunch of drooling morons, in which case we have bigger problems. It took a while for Japan to take away a huge share of the auto market, it will take a while for Detroit to get it back.

    GM hasn't convinced me yet that they have indeed caught up with Japan in terms of reliability, styling, and refinement.

    I feel much more guilty about shopping at Wal-Mart (which I do about once a year) thanks to their poorly paid employees and almost utter lack of US made products.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,700
    Call me a traitor,

    Ok you're a traitor. :P

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,071
    >American makes have the worst Advertising.

    I also think the advertising is off point for new marketing. You may be looking at trucks and SUVs and that's consistent with your comments. But I think there needs to be a new slant to the car commercials. And I've seen some change.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    I feel much more guilty about shopping at Wal-Mart (which I do about once a year) thanks to their poorly paid employees and almost utter lack of US made products.

    Add Circuit City to that list. They're laying off all their experienced employees in order to replace them with lower-paid new employees. Oh, those experienced folks CAN get their jobs back after 10 months at the same low rate as the newbies. Unbelievable!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,071
    > Circuit City

    Thanks for the info. That will affect my purchasing. I likeliked their order online, pickup in 24 minutes plan. Have bought a few things there I could have bought at BB or Compusa.

    I assume Circuit City is applying the new lower rate workers to the CEO on down? grin.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,892
    I went Japanese early on. My first Toyota I bought in 1964 a Land Cruiser, lots of engine problems poor copy of a Chevy 6. My last was a 1994 Toyota PU, Problems from 11k miles on, poor warranty. 1978 Honda Accord, an awful car, 2 Datsun PU trucks, 1970 was great the 1976 was a piece of crap. A 1973 Subaru that should have never left Japan.

    I bought a new Chevy truck in 1988 and 4 more. They were all good up till now. I just do not care for the 2005 GMC, tinny build, sheet metal too thin. Wish I had my 1999 Suburban back. It was a GREAT vehicle. Used gas, but nothing is perfect.

    That is why I am considering a 2006 Escalade. My wife wants the GL Mercedes. If I could get the diesel I would go for it. Kind of small but we could manage.
  • mediapushermediapusher Posts: 305
    Punkr77-

    Is it any surprise that their Chevrolet Volt (Electric Concept Car) was all smoke and mirrors? I knew it the moment I saw the media blitz. It was just that - A MEDIA BLITZ so GM could try and improve it's fledgling reputation.

    GM is notorious for this kind of pipe dream silliness.
  • mediapushermediapusher Posts: 305
    Mariner7-

    Your mindset of loyalty doesn't seem to factor for people that have an education or learn from their mistakes.

    It seems to me that many people in the 1980's and 90's were ready to be loyal to GM, and they still got burned BIG TIME. So finally they said, "Enough is Enough" and never looked back.

    "Loyalty" only got many people financially exploited by General Motors in the not to distant past and currently.
    Where does this idea of loyalty come from anyway? It's SILLY. Why be loyal to a multi-national corporation who wants us to buy "American" when they won't even buy "American"?
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,700
    This has noting to do with what I said. When have I ever said anything about buying American. All I stated was that there is an anti GM/Ford bias that has no real basis in reality.

    Again many people like yourself would bash anything GM made no matter how good it was and would claim that BMW or MB made better cars regardless of how crappy they were made.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Please stop this ranting!! Again we will lose this forum and it will become another read only!!!

    We have gone over this crap too many times.

    Lets talk about Cadillac and what it will take to regain some kind of leadership in the world and how they are doing. Not repeating and repeating the past.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    What year, make and model were these "USA nameplate" cars? What problems did you have?
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    ...I see Cadillac is considering a V-12 powered sedan. I love the looks based on the Sixteen, but I'd stay away from trying a V-12 at this time. They sound impressive, but I've always heard V-12s were nightmares to maintain and repair in BMWs and Mercedes. Cadillac has a great engine in the Northstar, and I'd look for them to further develop it.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    The Benz and BMW V12s were money pits because they were rare and super complicated, not just because they had four extra cylinders. The current rumor has Cadillac doubling the existing 3.6HF V6 to make a V12, so repair and upkeep shouldn't be any worse than the HF. Other rumor has a long-overdue 5-liter "Ultra" DOHC V8 replacing the Northstar in a few years.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,892
    Six months ago Cadillac was not on my radar screen. I am in the market for a newer SUV. I am tired of getting in and out of my wife's LS400. It is a nice car and we will keep it. We want something newer for taking trips in. My wife leans toward the Mercedes as she owned several and liked them. I am not wanting to deal with the local MB dealer. Also not sure of the cost for long term warranty. As a result of some posters here I decided to look at the Cadillac SRX. It was nice, BUT. I like the last generation of Escalade better. I like the plush feel and the handling. I like the white diamond color. Most of all I like the price. Just as ALL cars there is a BIG hit when you drive off the lot. If I buy the 2006 Escalade I am looking at. The deciding factor is the Certified warranty. It is 6 years and 100k miles bumper to bumper with $0 deductible. The price is below Edmund's TMV by several thousand dollars. And I like the salesman I was talking to.

    Cadillac are sure they are the standard of excellence, and give a better warranty than the competitors to back it up.
  • punkr77punkr77 Posts: 183
    Generally, I would think that if you can afford a V-12 car, you aren't worried about repairs, fuel mileage, etc. I'd figure it would be in the $80k+ price range. Most of those purchasing at that price aren't going to be keeping the car past warranty.

    I wouldn't think it would be much, if any worse than maintaining one of the high dollar Benzes once the super expensive electronics and rare-ish model specific parts start failing. Ever look at what you can buy a $100K Benz for after it's 5 or 6 years old.

    But again, people who buy that kind of car don't care about that. For people buying cars at that price range it boils down to: I want it so I'll buy it. The real question should be how many people who can afford to drop $100K+ on a car would buy a Caddy? I can't picture many CEO's and Hollywood types going out and buying a Caddy to show they've "made it." There's only two American cars that really fit that bill that have been made in the last decade (not counting one-off's and customs) the Ford GT and the Saleen S7.

    I just don't see a workable business strategy that would result in Caddy again becoming the standard. Competative in the $30-60K luxury segment maybe, but not a global player at the pinacle of the automotive art. This is especially true when it's parent company is struggling. GM needs to focus all it's efforts on building amazing cars and trucks at the price points 99% of us buy at.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    The entire US auto industry is no longer a major global player, so I agree, Cadillac has no chance at that either.

    In 1957 US share of the global market was 67.5%. Today it is only 17.7%.

    The market world-wide is far too diverse for any one marque to gain dominance. Competition is ferocious and it's very difficult to overtake anyone, much less someone out in front of you.

    MODERATOR

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,529
    Not from PR releases, no matter how good they look.

    It all happens on the battlefield...how a car performs day after day, year after year, and how brand equity is built in the public's mind.

    Even if Cadillac (or WHOEVER) suddenly built the best car in the world, it would take 5 to 10 years for the buying public to respond significantly, in terms of sales.

    For example, Hyundai cars are 10X better than they ever were---do they outsell Toyota? Nope. Mitsubishi cars are vastly improved over ten years ago---but still a second tier player. Mercedes is probably a lesser car than it was ten years ago---are they falling off the table into obscurity? Nope.

    So it takes a long time for the situation to change, pro or con.

    MODERATOR

  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The STS is still a quite new model, so the changes for 2008 are minor improvements. The big change is the DI V6 with the six speed automatic which I think will make the V6 a much better car. For the money, the V6 is probably a good choice, although a CTS might be an even better buy. The STS V8 is of questionable value, depending on the level of options. With the performance packages, the STS V8 is so expensive that I think it is not worthwhile.

    As far as the idiotic Standard of the World stuff goes, I question that Cadillac was ever the standard of the world, although, after World War Two, when the auto industry in the rest of the world was bombed out for the most part, perhaps Cadillac was on top in some meaningless fashion. At this point in time I do not think any make is a "Standard of the World". No one has explained to my satisfaction just what being the "Standard of the World" really means. Cadillac won the advertising rights to this title by taking the Dewar Trophy for "Standardization", but this had very explicit meaning at the time, and has nothing to do with Cadillac's use in its adverstising of the late 1950's. Cadillac's advertising slogan "Standard of the World" is the usual stuff and nonsense of advertising.

    I suggested at the beginning of this forum that it was a pointless discussion unless we could define exactly was we are really talking about.
  • mediapushermediapusher Posts: 305
    Snakeweasel-

    It's very much a basis in reality. If a company wants to be standard of the world it can't for decades deceive its customers and expect them to be loyal or expect its products to be standard of the world (whatever that means) when it insists on using cheaper than cheap materials and building cars that make one feel as if they're sitting in an ice chest.

    So if there is an anti-GM bias, IT'S JUSTIFIED, based on the horrible experiences people have had with this corporation.

    Ever heard of the term "Once bitten, twice shy". Many of these people were three times bitten or more, then finally got shy. The massive defections from Cadillac that they brought upon themselves and that occurred in the 1980's and 90's, still lingers on today. That's not anti GM bias. That's reality.

    Look at what the CURRENT consumer index has to say about most of Cadillac's products. Do you consider that anti-GM bias too simply because it offends your blind pride and sensitivity?
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    It reads nice enough, for $36,000. I think GM will want more than that, though, which will be a problem when this shows up on dealer lots.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,144
    Oh, they most definately brought it upon themselves in the early to mid 1980s starting with the V-8-6-4. 4100 engine, Cimmaron, radically downsized Deville/Fleetwood of 1985 and the diminutive Eldorado/Seville of 1986.

    But what was wrong with the 1990s Cadillacs? I believe the 1992 Seville and Eldorado were the beginning of Cadillac's rebirth. The 1998-2003 Seville was even prettier. I had a 1994 DeVille and had absolutely no trouble with it. Heck, even my 1989 Cadillac Brougham is pretty much bulletproof.
  • mediapushermediapusher Posts: 305
    Rayainsw-

    That report doesn't prove anything. It's just more delusional public relations spinning from General Motors. They did the same thing in January 2007 with their Chevrolet Volt Electric Concept Car, which they don't and sadly engough never did intend on bringing to production.

    ---mediapusher
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