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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    How exactly does a car "drive luxuriously"? The first thing that comes to mind is this:
    image

    And, as for finding another $13,000 "luxury" car in the '70s, there isn't another because there should have never been one in the first place.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Bumpy. To "drive luxuriously" meant the same thing in the 1980's as it does today. The only difference is we have technology on our side today.

    What does it mean for a car to "drive luxuriously?" Obviously during the 80's, that meant that the car had to have very low interior noise levels. It also meant NVH had to be attenuated as much as possible. It also meant that the car had to run over rough road surfaces with the least amount of the road's texture coming in.

    Unlike cars from the 80's, today's luxury cars in addition to the qualities just listed now have well-weighted steering (electronic sensors/steering racks). Brakes that grab and act in a linear fashion (electronic sensors for traction control). Enough of the road surface has to be transmitted thru the steering rack to provide the driver with feedback so as to inspire driving confidence. The seats have to be extremely comfortable to prevent driver fatigue (applied materials; biometrics research). A well-tuned chassis (careful tuning on road courses/Nurburgring).
    In addition, there will be all kinds of standard features that were not available back in the 80's.

    Since the Mercedes Benz you posted fits none of the criteria I set fourth above (for example, the car has high levels of interior noise. The ride is Bumpy (sorry...). The engine in the car vibrates all the fizz out of your Coke while you're driving it. The transmission in the car gives you a swift kick in the pants each time you accelerate it. The soundproofing (or lack thereof) makes the interior sound like you're standing in a wind tunnel at speeds over like 30 MPH. A prerequisite to using the steering wheel is that you can hammer curl at least 40 lbs.
    The interior has first-class luxury appointments like a huge, red hazard lamp sticking out of the center console. The speedometer and tachometer have a documented 4,980,352 digits printed on them. The leather surfaces has all the softness and suppleness of an NFL football. The plastic surfaces have all the elegance and class of an NFL football helmet. Chrome is used as if it were a precious metal. ets, etc, etc.), it is not a luxury car. Since it goes from 0 to 60 in around 9 seconds, it is not a sports car. Since it's noisy as well as slow, it is not a luxury sport sedan. It has a tight turning radius, so it could technically be called an econo-box.

    But it cost like $50,000...

    Which begs the question, "What on God's Green Earth is it?!"
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Mmmm...that looks to be tectite grey like my E55. Very unusual. Would have been like 50K in 1988...and nearly everyone who bought it was very pleased.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    The car he posted has the M103 inline 6, a relatively powerful and very durable 3 litre engine with turbine-like smoothness. You won't have any vibrations from it. Please, you have apparently never even ridden in one of these cars.

    Chrome and bordello interiors are American definitions of luxury. Americans do not own the concept.

    And about your performance talk, I have no doubt it could school one of those baby Eldos on a track...
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222
    can GM make Cadillac the standard of the world?

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  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Which begs the question, "What on God's Green Earth is it?!"

    "It" started life as a 300CE, then AMG turned it into a 6L V8 monster with an equally fearsome price tag: $160,000 or thereabouts. The somnabulent set was not invited to participate.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Short answer: no. GM has decided that the CTS should be a 300C with a better interior; the SRX, STS, and DTS are slated to die at the end of the decade, and the replacement for the latter two will be a rebodied Holden sedan; the Escalade will continue to to be a gadgetologized Tahoe (to borrow a Rockyism); and the XLR will continue to be an overpriced angular body on a Corvette platform. Nice enough if you like that sort of thing, but the Hyundai Genesis has as much a claim on "Standard of the World" as anything Cadillac has in the fold.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Seeing as the "standard" had to do with standardized parts more than any kind of "luxury standard" , no...as even British cars today have standardized parts.

    Caddy is for all intents and purposes a North American brand. It has gone over like a lead balloon in Europe, and I don't see this changing. It really isn't anything "of the world", and it doesn't have to be.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Who would even make that determination? The whole "Standard" title has been documented here. I suppose if they were again awarded the Dewar Trophy for their world leading build "standards," then Caddy could lay claim to that title given that criteria.

    And, does it matter? Will every car built by every mfg. conform to the needs, wants and desires of every buyer? My guess is that as long as there are three people on earth, there will be at least two different opinions on almost any given subject. Especially cars!

    I personally don't care about brands and labels (much... ;) ). I use the auto rags and internet to help me narrow a list of cars down to those most likely to fit my bill. But, since Edmunds, CR, C & D, R & T et. al. aren't paying for my car, I make the decision on what is my "standard." Right now the single best car in the world resides in my side of the garage. The Evil Wife has her "standard of the world" on her side of the garage...

    For many, many years GM built cars that appealed less and less to their former, and future, constituency. In fact, for years Caddy's weren't Caddy's. Just rebadged all other GM brands, e.g. Cimarron. But the past is just that. Including Dewar Trophies, Cimarron's, Allantes, Humped back Sevilles and V8/6/4 engines. It appears that years and years of wait 'till next year are now becoming next year. The CTS is good, the SRX isn't horrible, the STS isn't horrible, even the XLR isn't bad. WHere Caddy has stumbled a bit imho is with pricing. Without the discounts/rebates, Caddy's are competitive cars at non-competitive prices.

    Saw a black '08 CTS the other day with full faux tan convertible top and much gold special edition badges. Those that don't learn from the past are destined to repeat it... :P

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now, that's what I,m talkin' about! Very eloquent and exact, in deed, Dada!

    My Dada aspired to Caddies and the dumped the brand for Buick. Wonder why?

    Regards,
    OW
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I''m assuming that as my Dad went from Queens, NY to a New England liberal arts college, he was there bitten by the imported car bug during those years. My first car recollection of his car was a red Borgward. My earliest memory of my mother's car, a white Buick convert with red interior.

    BUt they gave up on domestics in the early '70s after a string of bad experiences, culminating with a Ford LTD Country Squire wagon(IIRC). I still remember riding in the rear facing seats, sans seatbelts, waving to cars behind us... Saabs, Mercedes, Renault (!?), Datsun, Acura, Honda, Mitsubishi and even VW graced his garage. He did return to domestics in the '90s, didn't want to hold a grudge his whole life... A Chrysler Concorde that treated him well and a Caddy Catera that sent him back to the imports. He defended the Catera as a nice drive, unfortunately most of the driving was done by mechanics... :sick:

    I'm not sure if I hate to admit it, but cars didn't mean much to me until... the Fiat X1/9! Something about that car just caught my fancy, I had a big poster of it on my walls. Never owned one as by the time I could drive/afford to buy a car I knew well of Fiat's reputation and they were exiting our marketplace. I've been mostly Japanese car-wise my whole life but my very first car was a used '78 VW Scirocco. Loved that car, hated to see it rust away... :(

    But, being fair and balanced as I am, my prior ride was a '99 Chrysler 300M that, while I would award it no build quality trophies, I too loved. Reliable enough, with personality, decent performance/handling for such a large-ish car and decent mpg. Much better in the snow than my TL. Enjoy the TL, too...

    Having said this, I want a Jag XK. Thank you.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, forgiving is the key...I forgive the US Car manufacturers, just am bored stiff with the offerings. Now that I have the 3 series, can I ever really go back to domestics?

    We shall see.

    image

    Nice!!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...a Caddy Catera that sent him back to the imports.

    Actually, he already was back at the imports as a Catera was really an Opel Omega underneath and made in Germany. Not surprised that the Ford Country Squire sent him over to the imports in the first place. My Dad had a 1972 Ford LTD Country Squire and it was easily the worst car he ever owned.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The Yanks have become rather obsessed with making their cars more 'European' of late and they're starting to get good at it.

    Irrespective of what the cynics say, Cadillacs are not the chrome-laden barges of old."

    Cadillac BLS Wagon (Crash.net)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Has someone taken the trophy away from Cadillac? :confuse:
    Is the trophy a traveling trophy? :confuse:

    I think not. Therefore Cadillac is still the "standard of the world" as much as it ever was. The title was conferred by the Royal Automobile Club, who had the right to grant it at the time. Does anyone have a right to take it away and give to someone else? :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Is a Caddy any more "standard" than any other car?

    It's a meaningless title from 100 years ago.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I think not. Therefore Cadillac is still the "standard of the world" as much as it ever was. The title was conferred by the Royal Automobile Club, who had the right to grant it at the time. Does anyone have a right to take it away and give to someone else?

    Who cares about Dewars or Royal Automobile Club. Only folks currently thinking about this are a handful of posters on this Edmunds board.

    Is anybody interested in some race many decades ago? What are you doing for me today, or at least lately.

    Forget about Dewars and Standard. Look at dictionary for meaning of "standard". Seems like the world standard for Cadillac company is BMW and Mercedes in that is who Cadillac is trying to emulate and beat.

    What might be more relevant than an old Dewars race is if Cadillac had suceeded in their race efforts within last decade at 24 Hours LeMans. Cadillac tried briefly, then gave up. Back in late 60's, Ford was persistent in goal of winning LeMans and finally did in 1967 with American drivers (AJ Foyt being one).

    GM and Cadillac perhaps could have put more effort into LeMans to try for victory. There are many American race car builders, such as Penske, Newman/Haas, Roush, etc, that could have got them a LeMans victory. Then, look at the bragging rights and positive publicity.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    That was the gist of my post #9 in this forum. Now we are up to 4700+ :sick:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    see the post just above this one or my post #9 in this series of sillyness
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Oh, he knew it was an Opel. That's why he took a chance, enjoyed the European inspired drive, not a stereotypical barge of a Caddy. But, GM put the Caddy marque on this mechanical disappointment, so from Caddy/Opel he went to Acura, Acura and now Toyota Camry Hybrid (!) and hasn't looked back...

    Of course, his lady-friend drives a prior gen Ford Tauras and loves it! So, to her, I guess the Tauras is the "Standard of the World."

    I'd still rather have an XK.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I'd still rather have an XK.


    Keep thinking about it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    to get the standard back. It's about developing success after success and sticking to the plan...not droping models and adding letters.

    The making of Corolla started in 1966 when Japanese manufacturer decided to present a small compact car which integrates quality, style and cost-effectiveness of more prestigious models. During 40 years Corolla had as many as nine generations, and in 1997 it was the best selling car of all time. To the present day more than 35 million vehicles were sold and we can expect it to stay on the top in the future.

    Lexus is doing it for Luxury and Dependability.

    Can Cadillac really do this??

    Regards,
    OW
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I'm afraid thinking about it is all that I can do. Because, I'm married...with children. :(:D:blush:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    yes except toyota just dropped the corolla name in europe, too many bland aplliance connotations there, so I guess it depends on your location. Not to say the car isn't good or not, just that the name of even what is a successful car here (and no doubt about it the corolla is a successful car here and almost everywhere else) can carry different conotation elsewhere. As for the topic, no Cadillac is not the standard of the world, I am not even sure that GM is trying to make them the standard of the world, what the are trying to do is make them world class and available around the world, in that respect I think with the CTS they are succeeding to a popint, the car is very good, no it isn'ty a 3 series BMW (what is) but it is a very good american interpretation of a sports sedan, is that enough for the rest of the world? only time will tell, and GM will need to bring the rest of the cadillac lineup to this standard and above to truly be competetive in the world market.
    Scott
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "yes except toyota just dropped the corolla name in europe, too many bland aplliance connotations there,..."

    lol, toyota drops the corolla name as if its not a bland appliance...
    lmao...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You are correct...but keep thinking about it anyway. It's the Law of Attraction!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Definitely! Let me put it this way; when you hear the Cadillac being mentioned in any type of conversation, the first thing that registers in our brain is the mother company which is General Motors.


    The mother has lost it's way! A long time ago at that. THe CTS is a tiny light shining from the Nürburgring!

    But we can dream Cadillac will be the world standard, as our driver whisks us away in our RR Phantom!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    No Caddy's to be seen for this coveted award...

    Just Audi RS4, Audi TT, Lexus LS460 and this little baby...

    image
    Regards,
    OW
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    Seems that unless GM has the automotive status equivalent of Boeing, it just won't get any respect whatsoever...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    OK what makes that Catera the world green car?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Catera? Heh, try E320 Bluetec; averaged 40 US mpg driving from LA to Detroit two months ago. Anyone know how the 2.9L CTS diesel does?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    See? Mercedes gets no respect either! Imagine mistaking anE320 for a Catera!

    My word! Indeed!

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    circlew, the last time Consumer Reports rated an Audi, Mercedes Benz or any other car that's not a Toyota, Honda, Chevrolet or Cadillac highly was like back in 1993 or so.
    The CTS is among Consumer Report's highest-rated cars, as is the Cadillac SRX. Where's Mercedes? Way, way down below. Where's Audi? Way down there in Chrysler Sebring territory.
    Cadillac is the Standard of the World. Get used to it. Consumer Reports knows it. Car and Driver knows it, which explains the CTS's 10-Best car award and not a Benz, Audi or any other luxury car. Motor Trend knows it, which explains CTS's Car of the Year award and not a Benz, BMW, Audi or any other luxury car. IntelliChoice and ConsumerGuide knows it. The Institute for Highway Safety knows it, which explains it giving the CTS and SRX five stars out of five and not a Benz, BMW, Audi or any other luxury car. Everyone knows it except for circlew. Once we realise that Cadillac gets more awards than any other luxury marque, then we'll also realise that Cadillac is the Standard of the World.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    I mean, when the entry-level Cadillac is better than a premium Japanese Infiniti regardless of MSRP, we know it's the Standard of the World we're dealing with here.

    ...an entry-level beats a premium. c'mon, guys!...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Even though I do not know it yet, feel free to announce...I'll catch up. It is what it is.

    BTW, I guess Five Stars to GM means get out now while we still can...the SRX is discontinued. Even you can't stop that now.

    That's my biggest problem. Sticking to a winning standard for a great product.
    El Dorado...history. On and on. CTS, SRX, ABC, MTV. Come on back at you!

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    BTW, I guess Five Stars to GM means get out now while we still can...the SRX is discontinued. Even you can't stop that now.

    ??? The lifecycle of the current SRX is just about complete. It came out in 2004, so it will be about 5-6 years old when it is replaced. Actually a bit long but it had a good run. It's replacement is coming out. Every vehicle has a life cycle. They get old. Sure the SRX still wins awards and kudos but GM cannot sit on its laurels. It is time to replace it.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    That we’re suggesting the $35,790 Cadillac CTS as a viable alternative to the Infiniti M45 is of note. In a recent comparison test, we placed the Sport version of the latter ahead of a field of the heaviest hitters—including the BMW 550i, Mercedes E550, and Lexus GS450h—calling it a bargain at 50 large. Although the CTS is priced to compete with these cars' younger siblings—the 3-series, the C-class, and the G35—it is sized to take on the big guys.

    Wow, finally a comparison at a major mag between the CTS and vehicles in the same size range, not price range.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I understand your point and agree that it must be changed.

    In my view, you can replace an old platform but not the model name. It does not make good sense to me but I am not a marketing genius.

    What's in a name anyway? Look at Camaro and Challenger. Why not keep ElD and Fleetwood.

    The CTS should hold the El D name in my book.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Not into SUVs, but if I were to consider one, the SRX would be at the top of the list. Why not an Escalade? I couldn't afford to feed the pig!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    First has anyone announced a name change? I am not sure. I do agree that GM has changed and dropped names too much.

    Anyway, why would anyone want to change a name of a model? Especially when the outgoing name has good equity? There are some decent reasons. The one in play here is that the new vehicle is not in the same segment as the old one. The SRX is basically a glorified Station Wagon based on the CTS or STS, what ever your preference. That is why C&D loves it so much. It handles like a car because that is what it is. Yes they raised it up slightly and gave it a higher profile but it is still very close to a CTS/STS in almost all attributes.

    The new vehicle is not based on the same architecture as the CTS or STS or any other car based vehicle. It is based on a new AWD architecture. It will be a true CUV in appearance and have other attributes, more like the X3. This vehicle will be in a different segment and a different kind of vehicle.

    As an example, if a minivan were to be brought out by Cadillac at the same time as the SRX was dropped, would you think that the new minivan would be called an SRX? No way. There would be confusion form both sides of the market. Those wanting an SRX type vehicle would walk into the dealership and say, what the heck! Those looking for a minivan would nevr even consider the new SRX because it would not be on their radar screen.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ok, makes sense. It does seem that currently GM is following instead of leading so that hasn't changed.

    So your telling me they will not use the Lambda architecture? That is a change then and a good one.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    So your telling me they will not use the Lambda architecture? That is a change then and a good one.

    This is a smaller vehicle. More like the X3. Different segments. The Lamdas are replacements for most families of the Trailblazer and even Suburbans. We love our Enclave. I doubt you will see the Escalade go into a different architecture. Way too well regarded as is and those who can afford the Escalade are not to worried about gas prices. However it will be hurt by the "green" opinion of it. Again though the 2 mode hybrid version of it sorta shuts that up. Of course it never will because even if it got better mileage than a Camry the Greens would still hate it for being so large. Whoops, it does get better city mileage than a 4 cyl Camry. :blush:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    True, but you can buy 3 Camrys for the price of one 'Slade HY for the whole family!

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "??? The lifecycle of the current SRX is just about complete... Every vehicle has a life cycle... Sure the SRX still wins awards and kudos but GM cannot sit on its laurels. It is time to replace it."

    I concur. The Cadillac SRX was an excellent vehicle that didn't quite meet sales targets, so it's time for a replacement regardless of the car's level of excellence. There's another car that was just as excellent that met a similar fate: the Acura NSX.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "True, but you can buy 3 Camrys for the price of one 'Slade HY for the whole family!"

    But the 'Slade can seat more people than three Camry's!
    ;)
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "Wow, finally a comparison at a major mag between the CTS and vehicles in the same size range, not price range."

    To me this is not suprising when the more expensive competition is being compared against what may be considered the Standard of the World.

    Doesn't suprise me one bit...
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Notice how even the S-Class Mercedes is using technology from the Standard of the World.

    Off-topic, DPHIQ.pk may be a good long-term investment, considering its current price...

    .
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What is interesting is that just 6 months ago Toyota said GM was being irrresponsible by saying the GM LI-ion batteries would be ready by 2010. Toyota had too many problems with overheating and considered them unsafe. Now GM announces they will be putting them in production vehicles. AND Toyota is also saying they are putting them in their 2010 vehicles.
  • randy89randy89 Member Posts: 3
    hey man i am a 20 year old kid working on an 89 cadillac brougham that was inherited by me from my dad over a year ago. anyway i have recently been trying to restore it and would like to know if you work on you 89 cadi and if so where do you get original body parts like mirrors, hub caps, trim stuff like that... please reply back and thanks for your time...

    Randy
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