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Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?

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Comments

  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Weakest frame of any full sized truck. We'll see how happy people are after 100k when the truck sounds like a 69 Peterbilt Dump.

    Oh and if you get the smaller V8, enjoy your timing belt replacement bill.

    Mark.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    That's a pretty weak argument. :sick:

    Haven't 3/4 tons been built on similar frames since forever, and just recently gone to FBF?

    Are you saying the domestic HDs, that are in service now for hundreds of thousands of miles, aren't well made? :confuse:

    If it was good enough for the domestics, for decades, are you saying the domestics were building inferior machines? Did they actually make mistakes?

    DrFill
  • Doc,

    Thanks for the link to the TrailerBoats comparison article:

    "GMC 1500 SIERRA CREW CAB

    This is a sweet truck. Our unit was powered by the reworked 6.0L V-8 VortecMAX that kicks out 367 hp and 375 lb.-ft. of torque. The OHV powerplant features variable valve timing and Active Fuel Management. Its power is passed through the Super Duty four-speed OD automatic, and then on to the optional 3.73 axle. This truck had the beefy 9.5-inch rear axle that comes with the 6.0L and 6.2L engines. The rear suspension features semi-elliptical, variable-rate, two-stage leaf springs, and splayed-mount monotube shocks. Up front, the truck was equipped with a double A-arm IFS setup using coil-over monotube shocks. The P265/70R17 tires are mounted to 17x7.5-inch aluminum wheels, and are steered through a power-assisted, rack-and-pinion system. Power-assisted, four-wheel disc brakes with ABS are on all four corners.
    Here’s another vehicle for which axle gear and option package choices are key. As provided, our test unit had a maximum tow rating of 8500
    pounds — however, if it had been delivered with the optional NHT “maximum capacity trailering” suspension instead of the Z71 “offroad” suspension package, and the optional 4.10 axle, the vehicle would have been rated at 10,500 pounds. That’s a 2000-pound difference."


    Please explain to me why they would do a Towing comparison, and NOT use the Max trailering (with 4.10's)option on the 6.0 GMC? The Tundra had 4.30's, yet TrailerBoats used 3.73's for the GMC? Maybe it has something to do with the Tundra ads plastered on every other page of that magazine???

    Oh, and regarding the IIHS tests, which "tougher test" did Tundra win? Show me where the Tundra did better than the GMT900s, the Tundra did WORSE (4 stars vs 5 stars for everyone else) in the NHTSA tests. I also am curious if you would have the same opinion of their worthiness if the Tundra had done worse in the IIHS vs the NHTSA tests? Known fact? Yeah, among Toyotafolk.
  • KCRam@EdmundsKCRam@Edmunds Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,497
    This is about sales. Some of you got the comparison discussion closed down - don't do it here.

    kcram - Pickups Host

    KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Moderator

  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    for now anyway....
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Since the post remains:

    GM didn't have their new truck tested, but Tundra beat everyoine else. As it did last time.

    If GM wants to use the NHTSA test, that's fine. But the IIHS offset crash tests is the higher standard. That's pretty obvious. :D

    DrFill
  • I think we can all agree that all new trucks are safe vehicles, especially compared to even 10 years ago. But the Tundra is not safer than any other comparably equipped trucks. And according to NHTSA tests...twice...it is less safe. With that said, I think safety is the least of the Tundra's weaknesses.
  • OK, the host wants us to talk about sales and marketing so we will. At Dr Fill's urging (and instigation) I took a break from my Ford F150 research and jumped on the Toyota Tundra web site. These guys are cute. Way too cute for me.

    After a quick look at their site, I clearly felt "channelled". There were very few stand alone options. One option, Option A , isn't even an 'option" because it couldn't even be deleted. Most options were bundled into packages. There was minimal color selection, e.g., I think you could only buy a standard cab non SR5 in one of four colors. There were very few "tech" options such as in final gear ratio, limited slip options, tranny coolers, etc. In fact there was no tech discussion such as with this engine option you also get a larger tranny cooler that were readily apparent.

    Rather than list the prices by each powertrain option you have to select a power train and then it shows up in the final tally. Want the much vaunted 5.7 over the 4.7 V8? No problem, once you do the math, thats a $1600 upgrade. Contrast this with Ford where the 5.4 V8 is only $900 more. With GM the 5.7 is even less of a bump up from the 4.3. Not only are these prices much more reasonable, the consumer gets to see them clearly and in isolation.

    Many options seem absurdly high in price for what you get. Performance options? Oh, yeh you can pick up a "TRD performance air filter" which is only a different element for $95! Want a long (ie., standard 8' length bed) with a standard cab without getting into the SR5 or the Limited? Nope. No can do.

    Now here is the mind boggling part. I assumed that I could "build" a Toyota to suit. Afterall thats what the web site said. When I clicked on a box to "live chat" with a Tundra rep about options, Mark W. told me that one can't special order a vehicle. Rather your dealer can try to find it for you. If he can't, so sorry.

    And whats with the additional step in Toyota distribution. They apparently sell the vehicles to "distributors" who then sell them to "dealers". What is the value to the consumer of this added, costly step?

    Ford? The sell direct to dealers. The options are all clearly priced and are available a la carte. Want an unusual set of options? No problem, we'll have it built and delivered in 6 weeks. Want to see actual dealer invoice pricing? No problem, we show it to you on the web.

    The more I look at Toyota's marketing the less I like. I think many American truck buyers will feel the same way.
  • kcram is right. This board is about SALES.

    Part of Tundra's relatively low sales compared to the Big 3 is undoubtedly its worse NHTSA crash test ratings than Ford, Dodge, and Chevy. Safety is an important factor in sales numbers. Buyers pay attention to things like that, and then they vote with their pocketbooks.

    1offroader
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Buyers pay attention to things like that, and then they vote with their pocketbooks.

    Boy, the desperation is intensifying over here.

    You are 100% right. Tundra is the only truck gaining share. The only truck that is up this year. Not a little bit. Like 50%! That's a resounding vote, if ever there was one.

    GM is very disappointed by the lack of love for their new truck, and the corresponding plant closings. That is another vote heard loud and clear! ;)

    Only two factors keep Tundra from AT LEAST overtaking Ram in sales.

    Capacity. HD/Diesel variant.

    In 10 years, Tundra will be at 400k+. Not even a question. I'm being very conservative.

    Toyota is doing EVERYTHING they want to do with the Tundra. The IIHS test shows the truck is more than safe, and the truck's safety is a strength, and more than just in it's latest test, in the features (standard) you get. :shades:

    DrFill
  • In 10 years, Tundra will be at 400k+. Not even a question. I'm being very conservative.

    LOL, keep dreamin'. Conservative? More like delusional. I'm willing to bet that you, or someone like you, also said that 14 years ago when the T100 came out, and again 8 years ago when the 1st Gen Tundra came out. In 10 years, someone will be saying it again when Toyota's next attempt comes out. Gotta give'em credit for persistence though.

    And even if you are correct and they do hit 400K in 10 years (which they won't, print this out and keep it in a safe place), they will still only be halfway to where Ford and GM are today.

    Oh, and you forgot one "factor" keeping Tundra from overtaking anyone....."Quality"!!!
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    When you buy a Toyota, not necessarily a Tundra, it is Toyota that decides what you need by their packaging. I mean what do consumers know, their bean counters have it all figured out with option packages. Custom build you say, well forget Toyota they just don't work that way. As long as consumers continue to support them, well there ain't no reason for them to change...unless of course they are trying to win over the truck market as if you hadn't noticed one of the things that GM and Ford have over Toyota is that you can order any combination of colors and options and do an actual build online.

    Hey what do I know....guess that's why I never bought a Toyota as I can't stand buying stuff that I don't need.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Got to love the guy that wrote that letter:

    Dear Mr. Toyoda...

    Can't see Tundra doing much damage to F150 sales with their NHTSA crash rating and now the Consumer Reports "not recommended" labeling.

    You can spin it however you want but the fact remains Toyota and the Tundra no longer will receive a free ride at CR. How can that possibly help them against F150 sales?

    Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Best crash tests IIHS? Um, wrong, they were no better than GM's and worse (4 of 5 stars) in the NHTSA tests, but of course those tests don't count because they don't favor the Toyota huh?

    Accuracy, Accuracty, Accuracy... as an engineer you should know the value of that.

    This is an absolute embarrassment on the part of GM's Marketing Dept.
    check this link out and tell me what's wrong with this picture
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I think we can all agree that all new trucks are safe vehicles, especially compared to even 10 years ago. But the Tundra is not safer than any other comparably equipped trucks. And according to NHTSA tests...twice...it is less safe. With that said, I think safety is the least of the Tundra's weaknesses.

    It all depends on what tesing criteria are being used.
    The GMT900s rate better in the old fashioned NHTSA testing
    but...
    The Tundra is No 1 - alone - in the IIHS ratings.

    Now Mr and Mrs shopper going to look at these two fine vehicles are going to get conflicting data. The GMs are a little better on the Feds ratings but they 'appear' much worse on the IIHS' ratings. Net result ... confusion and no conclusion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You have to be aware of the background and organization of TMS in the States. it is different in that the plants and the manufacturing side do nothing but build.

    They then sell the vehicles to the regional distributor which is normally part of Toyota Motor Sales, except in the SE or Gulf States areas where two private individuals have secured that distributorships for themselves ( longer story don't ask ). But it works. Each region can set their own pricing structure and build the vehicles they way they see fit to meet the demands of that local market. In NE 4WD trucks predominate, Ditto WV and the Rockies. In NYC and/or DC or the coastal areas it's 2WD vehicles 4 to 1.
    The sales office ( TMS region ) or the SET/GST distributorship actually sell the vehicles to the local retail outlets.

    In this way it doesn't force NYC dealers to stock and order 4WD trucks when their market doesn't want them. Our store is the No 1 truck store in the Mid Atlantic region CAT. We'll sell well more than half as 2WD's since it's dead flat here and we get no snow or ice in winter.

    The pricing modules are designed and programmed by the regional offices for that specific area. That's why you have to enter a ZIP code.

    Now as to grouping options versus being fully ala carte that's another issue. Toyota and Honda don't do that.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Part of Tundra's relatively low sales compared to the Big 3 is undoubtedly its worse NHTSA crash test ratings than Ford, Dodge, and Chevy. Safety is an important factor in sales numbers. Buyers pay attention to things like that, and then they vote with their pocketbooks.

    Huh? Did you miss the early part of this year? This is a startup year in production. Total capacity at both plants could not even reach 300K ( 25,000 units monthly ) until last month. This has been a fantastic launch, with some stumbles of course, and tons and tons of additonal profit from the soaring sales.

    Having the top-rated truck for safety helps when the buyers are directed to the IIHS site or shown the 5 truck comparo. It solidifies in the buyers' mind the fact that the Tundra is the only truck on the market with all the safety features standard in every model. There's no skimping to hold the price down - or in the case of Ford not even available.

    The sales figures tell the story. It's getting out and being heard.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    We'll sell well more than half as 2WD's since it's dead flat here and we get no snow or ice in winter.

    That's good cause you don't want that unreliable rated 4WD causing you more grief.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I KNOW a domestic fan isn't commenting on quality. :blush:

    DrFill
  • Spyder, speaking of "accuracy", the IIHS link you provided shows the "Classic" GMT800's, not the GMT900's. Might want to read more carefully, or less selectively.
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