Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?



  • This thread at TS is 5 pages long, but read posts #65 and #69. So much for "Yeah, but Toyota takes care of it's customers". - - - - d-5/

    Yep, now this is a "quality" truck, huh Doc?

    We'll see how their sales figures look after people pull their heads out of the sand and see this stuff.

    The "Quality" paint jobs aren't going to help maintain sales growth either. - - tundra/

    With this kind of "Quality" (or lack thereof), Toyota isn't going to be catching anyone in sales numbers. :lemon:
  • kgfordkgford Posts: 7
    Dr Fill,Often imitated. Never duplicated.

    You try, and that's what's important. Don't ever forget it.


    Your expression perfectly describes Ford F-series trucks. It takes me less than 3 minutes to explain why ford is and has been the truck leader for over 30 years and they never set foot on a toyota lot again when looking for a real truck. And a real fully boxed and thru welded crossmember frame can hold over 3,000 lbs compared to your toyotas under 2,10 lbs. :P
  • So Doc and Spyder,

    It seems not all of your Ford to Toyota converts are all too happy with their decision. How will this affect sales conquests in the future as more and more people see the "real" Tundra? tundra/ See Post #8:

    "Ultra thin paint on all these things. If you look at it funny it will leave a scratch down to the primer. Worst paint job on any new vehicle I have ever owned.

    Between the bad paint, painted dash, cheap plastics, collapsing tailgates, spongy soft bed, etc...and not counting for the real problems people are having with these things...I am official selling mine. I've spent 3 weekends installing amps, speakers, nav, etc. and unless somebody wants to pay for it I will be taking it out. Only good news is that it comes out in 1/10 the time it went in.

    I have owned Ford trucks in the past and never had the issues with them I've had with this Junkra. I admit I like the look and power...but I want a truck I can use and not have to worry about. I never worried about my Ford truck.

    Whenever Toyota gets the kinks worked out I may be back. But then again I may not since I will be losing money on this POS.

    PS you can check my prior posts if you think I'm trolling. I own this thing and I'm really just sick of worrying about it. I want a truck that will give me piece of mind and the new Tundra is not it.

    Toyota is human too I guess."
  • KCRam@EdmundsKCRam@Edmunds Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,497
    Pointing out posts on other sites has nothing to do with sales... don't be the one that gets this discussion closed down too.

    kcram - Pickups Host

    KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Moderator

  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    that the Tundra sales will have absolutely no impact whether the Ford F150 retains its position or not. Some Toyota zealots tend to believe that it will but are seriously kidding themselves.
  • Dear K-spyder,


    I'd love to have you though address my two major points.

    1) How does the extra "step" in their distribution system add any value to the consumer? Seems to me that it doesn't take a Harvard MBA to realize that this extra layer of overhead simply adds cost. Monopolies never benefit anyone except the monopolists. Isn't the France family of NASCAR fame the Southeast "distributor"?

    2) Rather than having quasi-monopolistic "distributors" configure the vehicles for their areas, I'd feel a lot better if individual consumers, real live consumers, could pick and choose what they options they wanted to buy. I realize that this is bottoms-up approach is alien to the Japanese cultural system but it seems to work well here. You might find for example that a lot of NYC customers have second homes up in the Adirondacks or Catskills. Or maybe out on the Islands (Fishers, Block Island, Nantucket, etc.) and would rather order, buy and have their 4X4 Tundra serviced at their home dealer in NYC than at a dealer in upstate NY or in RI.

    How Toyota decides to do business is, of course, their business. But for American truck buyers who are used to an open spec book (I think you can even get leather as an option on the Chevy 1500 Work Truck!) and direct factory to dealer pricing, this may not be the best approach.
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    Had someone tell me the other day that they did not like anything at all about toyota tundra or (toadra) yet they bought one? go figure. Don't believe everything you here on the internet. What a shame.Do reaserch consider your options and make your best choice. btw I have never bought anything because someone else or most people were buying it. Its the sheep following the sheep. h20
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's the same in every manufacturing concern. There is a production group and a sales/marketing group. when you buy a truck from Ford or GM you don't actually buy it from the 'factory' and the money go to the producing site. There is a sales and marketing group at every manufacturer. That's who the dealer pays. To us it doesn't matter we pay the dealer.

    Point #1
    As to efficiency well here the numbers speak for themselves. Jim Press set up this system and ran it for 30 yrs and Toyota's sales and marketing exploded across N America. Now that's a model that works. There is no monolithic HQ in Dearborn or Renaissance or Auburn Hills that decides everything...each local region does the deciding.

    Point #2
    Well this point has been debated on evey product thread here and elsewhere. Toyota and Honda both limit the configurations in order to improve production efficiency. Note that Toyota here is only interested this year in selling to the retail buyer in a relatively few configurations. By doing this they keep the costs down and the profits up. More volume in smaller segments.

    In the end this is just business..maximize sales revenue and minimize costs. This is what Toyota does better than any of the rest. All the rest ( like the discussions here ) are fanboi hoohaa.
  • OK, points well taken.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    So spyder what have you to say regarding how Toyota dumped Press after 37 years of service and bringing Toyota to the no. 1 spot? Last I heard he's heading over to Chrysler.

    Need I mention that Toyota marketing guru who made Scion a household name for the young that's moving over to Ford.

    I'm sure Toyota errr Toyoda is real happy about that.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Well Press is over 60 and he had been 'kicked' upstairs to a board position at Toyora Corporate. Then there may have been other 'issues' that were never mentioned in his taking mega bundles of cash from Chrysler LLC. My guess is that cold hard cash and the desire to stay in the day-to-day were the biggest factors in his decision to move.

    In the end it's only business, nothing more.

    Farley, $20 Million? See previous statement. Toyota execs are notoriously underpaid by industry standards. Ditto the dealerships, sales force, staff, you name it. How well off can a sales person be when selling Scions bring a total markup of $800, at full sticker, or when the two highest volume vehicles ( Corolla and Camry ) bring ZERO to $500 on average.

    Toyota's whole marketing scheme is based on volume, volume, volume while keeping the cost components low. Their perfect model of efficiency in selling are the internet groups in CA. There are mega-stores there that are the largest retailers on the planet with sales people that average 60+ units monthly ( that's 3 sales per working day on average )...everyone of them a giveaway. The industry average for monthly sales per person is eight!!.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    told me that they were in the top 5% in the nation moving over 500 vehicles a month. And they don't do live music or hotdogs on the weekends ;)

    Only business? I'd be concerned if a guy that built your USA operations from the ground up left and went to a competitor.
  • Khspdyer, lets leave Jim Press' reputation to one side and without any further blemishes. You are a given to hyperbole. No successful car sales person, or really any successful professional, works just 20 days a month.

    Sure, maybe the Toyota business model is "volume, volume, volume,.." but even at zero GPM on a retail sale this doesn't mean that no one is making any money on the sale. The F & I Department is probably good for $2000-$3000 per unit, the used car department loves the trade-ins, the sales guy pumping our 60 units a month has to be making a 100K+ a year or else the local BMW store would send a cab over for him, etc.

    Here in the Northeast, the domestic brands are reduced to quoting everything at dealer invoice. Literally. This doesn't mean though that the dealer-principal is losing any money. Au contraire, he is quite willing to have the public thinks that he is giving the vehicle away at "cost" when he has multiple shots at the consumer before they finally drive off in his new car. (The automobile industry reminds me of the airline industry: everyone makes money, bundles of money, except the airlines.)

    Finally, with regard to "volume, volume, volume" , as Toyota pushes the volume envelope their dealership CSI's are approximating that of the big, bad GM and Ford stores. (Source? Cover article in Baron's in August of 06). This will in the end come back to bite them. Just as the decreassing reliability ratings will.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I didn't say anything other than 'issues.'

    Nonetheless there are typically 30 days in a month with two days off per week that's 22 working days sometimes 23. I did use 20 days as a round number. Yes if a sales person is doing 40+ retail units a month he should be able to clear $150K+. But that is not Toyota's model. They would have all the new cars sold over the internet where instead of one salesperson doing 40+ monthly 'at retail' there are 5 or 6 doing 60 monthly at invoice.

    You may be familiar with Longo Toyota ( or not since you're in the NE ). They are the largest auto retailer on the planet doing 2000-2500 new units monthly. A large number of these are done as internet sales at the rate of 3 per person per day; i.e. 60-70 per month. That's the model being held up to the rest of the nation. Instead of being lot rats be the LLBean of auto sales. How much commission do you think 65 sales of Zero GPM generate? They're all flats.

    To Toyota it doesnt matter what the final selling price is. They've been paid 'full sticker' when they shipped the vehicle. If one store sells 300 units struggling to retail them on the lot, and succeeds, with an average of $800 GPM but another sells 1000 units and gives all of them away at $0 GPM, which then is more valuable to the manufacturer?

    You are way way way way off on the F&I numbers. Due to a lot of outside issues the average 'goal' per copy is $1000. But that's rarely reached. Among the reasons are, a huge number of buyers are financed through their credit union; til recently many buyers used their House/ATM; or some were just wealthy enough with equity enough in the paid off trade to pay cash for the difference. A lot of long term Toyota owners paid off their first one 10-20 yrs ago and have been rolling that equity forward ever since.

    The Scions are Toyota's experiment with a new way of doing business. No markup, no price discussion, no pressure, killer prices, buy what you want when you want. The sales people are there just to write up the order...or not if it's done over the internet.

    Toyota and Honda have been and are still struggling to get CSI numbers up to Buick levels. This has not changed at all from the 90's except that now, at least in Toyota's system, they are taking money away from the salesperson, the managers and the stores as a whole if they don't hit the national averages.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Please, Toyota is boring to talk about.

  • Kdhspyder, what you descibe so well is happening in many industries. In fact "The Economist" calls it "disintermediation". A lot of sucessful people like stock brokers, insurance reps, local book store owners, local newspaper publishers, etc. used to make a decent middle class living until the internet came along. Thats all of course changed. In the automotive industry, not only are the sales guys downwardly mobile, the dealers are also. The factories cut margins to gain control over the sales process. I think tht the GPM on a new Mercedes is 6%. There isn't a heck of a lot a dealer can discount if he begins with only 6 points. He certainly can't discount them enough to sell cars nationwide. The former MB dealer in ME (there is only one for the whole state) complained to me one time that he couldn't make any money with the line because no one in good old Maine believed in leasing and that was the only place to make any money on a new MB sale.
  • Toyota, the ONLY truck with the top rating for front and rear crashes. Tell GM & Ford to stick that in their pipe!
  • "Toyota, the ONLY truck with the top rating for front and rear crashes. Tell GM & Ford to stick that in their pipe! "

    They are NOT the only one with top ratings in front crash test ratings, in fact, they are only "as good" as the others in IIHS and WORSE than everyone else in the NHTSA tests. As for the rear crash tests? Maybe, but if they are it's most likely due to the rear frame, bed and tailgate being one big "Crumple Zone"... :P
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Whatever the interpretation, until the other 5 come up with an improvement in the rear crash criteria ( seat and head restraint dynamics ) the Tundra will remain tops in the list in the more difficult tests.

    Since Ford has already 'aced' the tests with the Taurus/Sable they know how to get the top marks so I'd expect the new F150 next year to also be on top. Dodge? What's up with GM though? How long will it sit on the bottom due to the poor 'Classic' rating?
  • Spyder,

    Do you think good rear crash test ratings will offset the negative perception of the Tundra that is getting worse by the day? How do you think the latest Quality Issue will affect sales for the remaining 2007's and 2008's? I am assuming you do know about the Tailgate issue, right? s/

    So, in less than a year into it's first year, the Tundra has had the following issues:
    1. Camshaft issue, resolved but number of remaining potentially affected camshafts still out there is still unknown.
    2. Tranny Issue (Rumble Strip). Seems to be the Torque Converter. Now Toyota is no longer replacing entire tranny, just the TC.
    3. Interior painted dash, complaints of paint rubbing off the dash and other interior panels has many owners quite upset.
    4. Other interior quality issues: air vent, clock, stereo...etc
    5. Exterior paint quality, seems people are upset about how easily it is scratched.
    6. Exterior/bed sheet metal is thin and dents easily. I saw one pic that showed 2" depressions in bed floor from hauling an ATV.
    7. Engine noise (sounds like a diesel).
    8. Bed Bounce. Ride quality is a problem, much worse than other trucks.
    9. TripleTech frame not being perceived as being as good as FBF by most owners, probably mostly due to #8 above.
    10. Remote Start has most every Tundra owner (that has it) upset and wishing they didn't get it and urge others to buy aftermarket.

    Did I miss any? I am sure I did. Anyway, like I said, don't you agree that this many quality issues in the first year of a huge new vehicle launch is a problem that will affect the sales and success of the Tundra? Do you really think the Tundra will continue to see the sales growth with so many owners upset with the recent downward trend in quality from Toyota?
Sign In or Register to comment.