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Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?

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  • Eyeball that front tire on that 52... notice that tire aint flat... and got that mud around it? That mud got there workin that one... it sure aint parked any now! We got us a boneyard with some ones in it now... but that 52 and a few others is still workin hard. We haul them trains field to field now... not on them twisty streets! Trouble with them forien ones is rustin and bustin. If them forien ones is lastin so long, where is all them hi-lux ones gone too? Answer that mystery now... and you will be closer too that truth on them forien ones, thats for sure. Good luck on this one now!

    image
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    kcram, good post. I've been curious of Tundra sales. I agree 100%, Toyota has been offering huge incentives to meet their 200k target. I believe they entered December at 177k units and facing month-to-month declines in sales. When I bought my Sierra there were few '07s on the lots of local dealers (I was shown 1 demo). OTOH, the local Toyota dealer I shopped a Tundra for had 26 '07s on the lot and was running display ads in the newspaper boasting $6k off the sticker. The salesman boasted he was "giving them away" and "not making a penny profit." I'm betting Toyota went ahead and produced 200k '07s, their target, despite light demand and pushed them on their dealer network with killer, give-away incentives.

    Ford has a huge problem. I read their financial problems are so deep they can't afford a full redesign of the F-150 so they're just "refreshening" the interior, grill, and some other minor tweaks. Long-term that's a failed strategy.

    The Tundra doesn't have to be as good as the rest of the pack, IMHO, because it's a Toyota. I know that sounds strange but I know a lot of people who only shop Toyota. A lot of friends kept impressing upon me the importance of buying a Toyota and nothing else. It isn't even an America vs. Japanese quality issue because only one suggested the Honda Ridgeline or the Nissan Titan.

    I could tell them the big differences in features/price/reliability between it and the Sierra I had discovered but it didn't impact them. It's a Toyota and, by definition, it's better than the rest. Who cares if they're recalled it twice? Who cares if the interior is sub-par? Who cares if it only has 4-star crash ratings? Who cares if the offer Toyota gave me on an '07 was over $5k greater than the offer I got on a better optioned '08 Sierra? It's gotta be inherently better. It's gotta be worth the $$$ premium.

    The fact is Honda is the top-rated car brand according to Consumer Reports. Toyota's actually slipping in their quality ratings.

    Tundras aren't yet really competing in the work truck category from what I've seen and heard. So the fact they aren't as tough (e.g., lack a fully boxed frame) as domestic full-size trucks isn't an issue yet. The casual users who are buying it for carrying DIY home projects and hauling junk to the dump don't care. It does surprise me that the Tundra doesn't offer a more sophisticated 4x4 system so these commuters can easily switch to it in snow and heavy rain but I'm sure Toyota will fix that problem in later model years.

    But the topic is asking if the Tundra will overtake the F-150 in sales just as Toyota dominates in other categories like minivans and cars. IMHO, they don't have a chance with the current design. To get volume it needs to become a fleet work truck. Toyota's bloated price makes that a difficult proposition. However, it does stand a chance of becoming a dominant fixture in the suburbs where affluent yuppies are more than happy to pay premiums for the 'prestige' of owning a Toyota.

    I've owned 2 Toyotas. Fine cars. But I paid a huge premium for them. Fine in the '80s when Detroit and Europe were pumping out unreliable junkers and the reliability choice came down pretty much to Honda vs. Toyota. Cars have generally gotten more reliable plus there are more good alternatives to Toyota (and Honda) like Hyundai.

    It'll be interesting to see how long Toyota can ride it's reputation. I just read a Consumer Reports' review of SUVs with 3 rows of seating. The Toyota Highlander was rated the best SUV they've ever tested. Really? If you read their review it sounds like a solid choice but hardly overwhelming. Stuff that CR used to choke on, especially when the car came from Detroit, didn't phase them like sub-par interior fit/finish/materials, the lowest crash test score of the group, so-so driving characteristics, weak child seat set-up, and cramped rear seating.

    The Buick Enclave that came in a clear 2nd in that group (overall, it's the 4th ranked SUV behind an Acura in 2nd and a Honda in 3rd), while hardly perfect, seemed better in all areas except some transmission shifting issues (somewhat fixed by a software upgrade) and poor gas mileage (by 3 mpg in a group of gas hogs so who cares?).

    Reliability wasn't an issue because both the Highlander and Enclave were new models and CR had no statistics so didn't consider it.

    Of course, CR has been criticized - rightly so, IMHO - in having a pro-Toyota bias.

    Domestic car/truck manufacturers have a long way to go in rebuilding their trashed reputations. Designing superior trucks that cost less doesn't appear to be helping them against the Tundra thus far. Over time, if they can keep producing a high-quality product maybe the 'I only buy Toyota' crowd will start to thin.
  • sknabt
    Excellent post, many good points. I also know some folks who just shop Honda, or just shop Toyota. Back in the 60s & 70s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything made in Japan - it was mostly cheasy junk. Then, the tide began to turn in the late 70s/early 80s when Japan went quality-oriented, while Detroit languished and rode its momentum into the ground. Then, thru the 90s and 00s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything from Detroit. That tide is now turning also. Funny what competition does (Root hog, or die!) But, it takes awhile for folks to see it. Humans are basically herd animals, and it takes a while for a herd to undergo a change of thinking. That's happening now with the Tundra vs. Big3, and it is magnified when Japan shows its soft underbelly - a desire for profits over quality, same as Detroit. However, I think the Japanese corporate culture allows for a faster recognition and fixing of the problems. Toyota will fix the problems and design errors, pronto. It won't take decades. If Detroit lets up Toyota will turn the tables in their favor - again.

    Where I disagree with you is your comment that building better trucks doesn't help the Big3. Wrong. It helps immensely. Look at total Big3 sales vs. Tundra. Tundra is a small fraction. Subtract out the "brand snobs" who only shop Toyota (50%??), and you have about 100,000 buyers who actually looked at all the offerings and still bought the Tundra. And how many of those actually work their trucks hard?

    Toyota has a looooong way to go to really crack that market, but I wouldn't necessarily bet against them.

    1offroader
  • It be yuppies who buy them forien ones... then they work them ones on that hi-way ride to them office buildings and grocery stores and such. But that workin man... he buys them big3 ones, them the ones with that haul. That tundra frame and tailgate is snappin if put to work any, thats the facts on that one now! We need trucks too work that field and such, not ones that bust and rust. It's not about no trends, it's about haul. Facts is facts. Good luck on this one now!
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    run scarred cuz yuppiies are runnin up your bumm they are cummin to get ya and youl have to buy that [non-permissible content removed] make ya dont want tah cuz it is tha best ta keep that farm going ya no . open yur back woods eyes and see its commin ats ya all!!! buy the best not the american trade mark you think is the best. facts is facts right. or i could say imho over and over again.
  • Thanks for the info! I knew the figure was close for the Tundra.
  • LOL, way to go, H20. I have had wonderfuly detailed replies to his ranting but what a suprise, no response. Looks like he should stay in dem fields and off the forums...never left the county now...using some of his own product i thinks........yeszereeee....:) He like pictures of dem trucks on his farm...a relic...rustin away.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    You ever get that unidentifiable noise fixed on your Tundra? Ever figure out what it was?

    Good luck on this one now.
  • That one you be callin that relic is workin hard well over 50 years now. We hauled with that one as a younger. But where is all them hi-lux and t100 ones gone? Rustin and bustin, the way of them forien ones now. That tundra got that camry frame and sheet metal, good for workin that hi-way, but not them farms now. What part of this one aint folks gettin? Try workin that tundar one in them fields, then see which one gets parked quicker now! Facts is facts on this one now. Good luck on this one now!
  • Already answered all of your questions rube....scroll back and read the replies for a change. T-100 is not a full size truck. If you search online, most t-100's are still running and have at least 250,000 miles, and no rust. Plus their resale is higher than any of the old stuff you got. Compare the right classes rube. 1/2 ton to 1/2 ton, 3/4 to 3/4 and so on. You dont compare a 3/4 ton to a 1/2 ton. Problem with understanding or something? When Toyota and Nissan do make 3/4 tons, you bet they will be in them fields. New GM trucks got 88 technical service bullitons for all kinds of engine, electrical and drivetrain problems. Your trucks never leave the fields so what does that prove? Its called using a tractor rube. Its cheaper to operate and maintain. Your crop is not that heavy anyway.

    Plus a Camry does not have a frame, it has a unibody. The first generation Tundra, not t-100, had a fully boxed frame with eight crossmembers, no one else did at the time of its introduction. But again, i already said that. Toyota trucks dont sell where you live because of back water discrimination from people like you, afraid of change. I bet you still own a Zenith tv from the 70's. Thank God the good Lord invented an ignorance control method known as passing away.
  • Your wrong on them ones fella... that factory called them t100 ones and them littler tundra ones "full size" now. That factory even called them hi-lux ones 3/4 tonners now! Facts is facts on that one now. So your tellin us that factory tricked folks back then now? What is too say that factory aint still trickin folks with that new tundra one now? And if all them forien ones is still workin, where is them ones? You sure you put that eyeball on them ones? Nope, them ones is rustin and bustin... that is where them hi-lux ones is. Get ya a big3 one if you plan on workin that one any, get ya that tundra one if ya plan on gettin tricked or fad chasin! Good luck on this one now!
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    People think Ford just can't build a reliable desirable car.

    Check out the Fusion/Milan problems and solutions board.

    mschmal, "Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Maintenance & Repair" #1, 7 Mar 2007 8:51 am

    I started this forum back in March of 07 and there are ALREADY 34 posts!

    Mark
  • markanmarkan Posts: 48
    After seeing pictures from the Detroit show I am not impressed with the front end styling at all. I've been waiting for this truck to replace my 01 F150 but now I'm not sure it is worth the wait. I was hoping for the new "Boss" to go along with the 6 speed. What does everyone else think about the new look?
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    What's more impressive is the '09 Ram. Check it out

    2009 Dodge Ram
  • andy82471andy82471 Posts: 120
    And people call the Tundra ugly. Yuck !!!!!!!!!!!!! Hideous. Chrysler is heading straight for bankruptcy.
  • Well, its not too bad i guess. Looks like a Transformer truck. Lots of creases, gaps, and square bits. The bed rail box is neat but makes it look unclean. Plus, you cant put a cap on the truck with that. I know caps aren't cool but they make a truck very practical with concealed, dry storage. The interior is top notch though. I like how Dodge made the excuse of not increasing the payload and torque by saying not many people tow that much without going to a heavy duty. True to a point, but the half tons that can have such a heavy curb weight now you can use a half ton to tow that much. Plus, the Rams fuel economy remains unimpressive. As for maximum payload, well, the 06 Tundra before the redesign had almost that much payload and had a nice ride. Still, i think its worth a test drive to be fair to Dodge. Always willing to give them another try.
  • Sorry, payload and towing.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    can be found at my blog here at Edmunds CarSpace - New truck day at NAIAS

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • I really like the interior. Exterior, eh, I prefer the older model but I could grow into it. The bed rail storage bins won't work with a camper shell, or maybe even a tonneau cover it appears - not very useful. Fully boxed frame - natch - everyone 'cept Tundra has one now, Tundra is in now alone in last place framewise but the next version is guaranteed to have it, to the chagrin of current Tundra owners. Rear coil springs - no way Jose. The reason full size trucks use rear leafs is BECAUSE THEY WORK. It's not as if Dodge just discovered rear coils. They have been around forever, but have been found lacking in durability in trucks. A big step backward I'm afraid unless Dodge is really going for the soccer mom sales, which maybe they are. Soccer moms love trucks too. Dodge has now gone to AFM like GM, as they all will eventually due to ever higher gas prices.

    Overall, nothing in the new Dodge will be compelling GM & Ford & Tundra owners to switch, but they may capture a few new buyers due to the more car like ride and nice interior.

    1offroader
  • Calling the F150 the best selling truck is nothing but advertising sleight of hand. The Silverado and Sierra are identical trucks just sold under a different brand. If the sales totals of the two are combined they far outsell the F150, by about 50,000 per year if my memory is correct.

    I'm not commenting about which is better, just pointing out the true numbers.
  • markanmarkan Posts: 48
    I wish Ford would make the heavy payload package available in more models. It is a great value, something that is rare these days, and makes the F150 more practical for those of us who occasionally need to haul 3000 lbs but are empty 95% of the time. Makes much more sense than having to move up to a F250 because of the better ride, fuel economy, and ease of entry. I need it in a short wheel base extended cab version 4X4 rather than the long wheel base version. Anyone else agree? Seems to me it wouldn't be that difficult or expensive since Ford already has the heavier axle and springs available.
  • Would be a nice option. However, it looks like Fords market research made it on the long wheelbase because most people who buy the long wheelbase need the extra bed length for construction work. Carrying drywall, plywood, and extra long bedrail toolchests. I agree though, should not cost Ford anything to make it available on the short wheelbase. I guess it depends if there is enough of a market for it.
  • I used to think that too. But then i saw the disclaimer and a post on here earlier that did state the numbers. Fords numbers and GM's are based on full line truck sales, including combined numbers from GM. GM includes both trucks as their sales numbers. I agree it should be more specific when advertising. I think advertising is getting away with far too much without being specific enough. Another example is Ford claiming it has more trucks on the road with 250,000 miles. Dodge claimed it had the longest lasting trucks, yes Dodge! Then of course Chevys long standing, long winded claim of longest lasting trucks on the road. Too bad that claim does not specify how many are still on the road with rebuilt engines or transmissions. That goes for all truck lines by the way. Does not count in my opinion. Original engine and transmission is the true proof. Plus, if you manufacturer hundreds of thousands of trucks, of course their will be more on the road!

    Throw that in and suddenly the numbers dont look so great.
  • I stand corrected. It is as confusing as the claims of longest lasting, most on the road etc. Have you ever heard the expression "Figures don't lie but liars figure"? It certainly applies to automobile advertising.
  • LOL, very true! :)
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    "And people call the Tundra ugly. Yuck !!!!!!!!!!!!! Hideous. Chrysler is heading straight for bankruptcy." - obyone

    Anything that big is going to be only so pretty. The '08 Sierra I just bought isn't going to win a beauty contest either but it's attractive enough.

    The old Dodge Ram front end was great when it came out but it desperately needs to be freshened. Not sure I like the new slanting grill as well but, overall, the truck looks more streamlined thus better to me.

    The interior looks okay but not as nice as the F-150's it is copying wholesale, IMHO. Of course, I'm judging by photos.

    Personally, I like the idea of lockable dry storage on the sides of the truck though I understand the complaints from folks who'll put a shell on it. Vaguely reminds me of the Ridgeline (now that's an ugly truck!) that has a compartment in the bed floor. Of course, it's useless if you are hauling anything that'll cover it. Still features like that are nice because secure dry storage is always a problem without expensive add-ons.

    All in all a nice job. The full-size pick-up truck market keeps getting more and more competitive. A good thing.
  • Ford comes out with a new truck & will not release horsepower numbers who are they kidding. Is this because Ford is still in last place in the horsepower wars. Comparsion below for most powerful engines in fullsize pickups.

    Chevrolet Silverado 367hp 6.0 liter V-8
    Dodge Ram 380hp 5.7 liter V-8
    Ford F-150 300hp 5.4 liter V-8 2008
    Gmc Sierra Denali 403hp 6.2 liter V-8
    Nissan Titan 317hp 5.6 liter V-8
    Toyota Tundra 381hp 5.7 liter V-8
  • All good points. Competition is good. I thought the same thing about the Ridgeline initially too. But after seeing its similarities in side profile to the original Chevy Avalanche, which started out in GM cladland, they both ended up being decent vehicles with their pros and cons like anything else. The Ridgeline does have questionable styling, but i do give credit to those who try something different then the overly conservative GM truck styling, with the exception of the ugliest truck on the road today, the Chevy Colorado.

    My in-laws bought a Ridgeline and after driving it for several days it is a very nice light duty vehicle. It rides and handles very well. It gets very good fuel economy. It has a fair amount of payload capacity and the in bed trunk is great to use. The standard auto 4wd and available 5,000 pound towing capacity is perfect for the average truck buyer. The frame and unibody structure combined give it a very stiff chassis.

    Weak points are bed length, interior appearance, and pricey for the entry level model. I suspect they will play with the design soon and spice it up a bit. The late model Pontiac GTO's were very competent sleeper cars and excelled in what they did but they were too conservative in their styling. The Ridgeline may be too much of an exercise in molded plastics and metal left in the sun too long. Its a difficult balance to get right when you want to stand out.

    The Ram styling will be liked, eventually. Hell, i still think the 98 Taurus was so far ahead of its time it still looks futuristic today, even the wagon version. Too bad it was a trans eating, electrical gremlin nightmare. Oh, and people still think it was ugly too.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    The new 2008 Super Dutys are more expensive and have greater and in some cases MUCH GREATER GCWRs than the old model.

    The F-150 has capacities creeping up also.

    I think that the cost increase on the 08 Super Duty vs. the 07 and the extra capacity of the 2009 F-150 is going to allow customers who previously needed the Super Duty to get the job done to stick with the F-150.

    Incidently, the reason that HP wasn't released as in part to give something Ford to talk about at the next auto show.

    Mark.
  • markanmarkan Posts: 48
    Mark,

    I know you're a Ford guy in some capacity and I would appreciate your opinion. I still don't understand the limited availability of the 3050 payload package. Seems to me that would be perfect for what you are suggesting and probably heavy enough for many F250 buyers. As I remember this was first marketed a few years ago to make the F150 a great towing vehicle for lighter duty trailers. I've had two F150's set up like this and they are a perfect compromise of comfort and capacity. I know it's all about numbers and potential markets, not to mention the fact that Ford makes more money on F250's. There are some of us that prefer the ride and comfort of the F150. What do you think?
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