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Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?

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  • KCRam@EdmundsKCRam@Edmunds Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,497
    Enough with the payola accusations. Or someone paid by Edmunds will do something about it. Understood?

    kcram - Pickups Host

    KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Moderator

  • Hey Rube...we grew up on farms too with F 250's and Cheyenne 2500's with 454 V8's. You know as well as i do that real farm work must be done with heavy duty 3/4 tons or more. Half tons are not and never will be designed for heavy duty use. You can put as big a springs and lift kits and big tires on half tons all you want but that does not change the fact that the frame is not designed for extreme duty work. The Super Duty Fords today still use a version of the Twin I beam suspension, which to this day is unmatched by anyone in terms of payload and towing capacities simply because its the strongest known design to be used in light to medium duty pickups such as the F-450 and 550.

    Ford, Chevy, and Dodge all must be loaded with options and properly equipt to do any kind of heavy work anyway. I agree 100 percent that the bed flex is unacceptable but any auto manufacturer tries to get away with putting as little strength into a vehicle structure as possible to see what they can get away with before adding more strength to it. Its so they can maximize profits. Its just good business. Ever slam the door on a 2007 Ford F-150 extended cab? The doors wobble and shake like waves in lake michigan. The dash is cheap plastics held together with spit and glue. The days of 200,000 mile gas pickups are over.

    Anyone can beat the hell out of a vehicle but there is no comparing trucks from the glory days when you could work on them and they used heavier steel. Those trucks are dying out. Plus they were a pain to start in the winter, rusted bad, sucked fuel, and did not provide much horsepower. The gearing was so low in some you didn't dare to go over 55 miles an hour with split rims and 8 ply tall tires.

    Todays trucks are better by leaps in bounds in every category. The Tundra will fix the problems it has, quickly. God knows the somewhat Big Three has had more than their share of recalls, fires, trans problems, four wheel drive problems, and everything else under the sun. The 2008 F-Series Super Duty Diesel just had early problems with flames shooting out of the tail pipe due to the emissions control system. Dont let the most dependable slogan from GM fool you either.

    That is based on active full line truck registrations, that does not tell you how many of those trucks have rebuilt engines, transmissions, or rebuilt titles. Plus, GM has manufactured far more trucks combined than Ford so simply saying more are on the road is misguided. Of course their are because more are manufactured so odds are more will be on the road.

    Their was nothing wrong with the first generation Tundra. It got excellent fuel economy, offered an 8 foot bed, had a decent payload amount, towed a decent amount, and had a very strong frame. It was fully boxed with eight crossmembers, something Ford and GM did not have on their half tons. We were still given the soft suspension, squishy brakes GM half tons and Fords crash test failing F-150.

    Its GM and Ford who played catch up design wise to the structural integraty of the Tundra and towing duties of the Nissan Titan at the time of their introduction. The Tundra was squeak and rattle free. The same trucks built at the same time from Ford, GM, and Dodge were not. The Nissan Titan set the new standard in half ton towing capacities in its introduction. Ford simply bumped its numbers up with no changes to the drivetrain whatsoever. This is not the first time Ford has been accused of overreporting numbers...remember the Mustang Cobra?

    I think all light truck companies tend to overexaggerate the vehicles true capabilities.....they may be able to do those maximum numbers...but i sure would not do it for very long.

    Bottom line is, Toyota has more work to do. So does Nissan. But GM, Ford, and Dodge certainly are not the perfect half tons either. Anything will break if you beat it long enough, no matter who makes it.
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    I agree no payola on Edmonds, (100%). understood. I will toe the line boss.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    What surprise does NAIAS hold in store? What the 2009 F-150 better offer if Ford wants to stay on top.

    1st are given. Things that Ford needs or they should just close.
    - Stability Control standard.
    - Curtain air bags standard.
    - Interior upgraded to similar to Expedition only with push through controls for radio and HVAC as Focus and Escape

    Now things I think Ford MUST do for the 2009 Ford F-150.

    - 6 speed Auto trans.
    - 3.5L V6 with 250HP and 250LBFT of Torque possibly replacing the 4.6L
    - Keep the 4.6L only with the 3V head from the Mustang/Explorer for 290hp and 325 LBFT of torque.
    - Enhance the 5.4L to at least 350hp/390 LBFT
    - BOSS 6.2L V8 with 380hp/450 lbft of torque
    - 4.4L Diesel 330 hp/ 500+ lbft of torque.
    - tail gate step and bed extended from Super Duty.

    WISH LIST
    IRS from Expedition
    3.5L V6 twin force with 28mpg.
    Hydraulic Hybrid with 60mpg city.
  • all you guys arguing about whos the better truck. Now as for payload and all that i'll tell you right now. To the average consumer anymore nobody cares anymore. Shameful fact about today's consumer is that people only care about looks; if it looks tough then it must be strong. Right now the truck that has it beat with tough looks is the Tundra, sorry to those who feel i'm and idiot but you know its the truth. Now i'm not saying the Tundra has highest payload, I'm not even saying its the strongest pickup out there. But you gotta admit, it looks like a tough truck, therefore everyone's gonna go for it for its looks not its power. So out of who i think is gonna go out on top? Unless the F-150 can step up its tough looking game, then the Tundra currently has it beat and it will continue until Ford changes the F-150's look to a more, tough and powerful look.

    Tough Looks Ratings:

    1) 2008 Toyota Tundra
    2) 2008 Ford F-150
    3) 2008 Dodge Ram 1500
    4) 2008 GM Silverado/Sierra
    5) 2008 Nissan Titan
    6) 2008 Honda Ridgeline (as for looks, its not pretty with non tough looks like Titan, but its rediculous on how hard Honda tried, thierfore it got last on my list)
  • We need ones with haul... like them big3 ones. We work them trucks, on that farm now. Trouble with them forien ones is they bust or rust... so they aint last long or workin hard.

    We still work this 52 haulin...
    image

    We haul these trains... six to seven of them ones... nose to tail now...
    image

    Can that tundra work them fields and last long? Can that tundra haul six to seven trains, day in and out, year to year? Them big3 ones do now, thats for sure. What say too this one now? Good luck on this one now!
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Tough looks rating?

    Looks are subjective. Some might say the Tundra is ugly. Does ugly equate to toughness? One thing Toyota is not known for is styling.
  • mule4mule4 Posts: 36
    Rube the picture would have looked better if the truck would have been hooked to the trailers. There are a lot of old trucks setting in fields that are broke down.I own a new tundra that pulls a Jayco 34 ft. tt 7500# dry wt. 9500# loaded.1115# tongue wt. It pulls it good in hills & mts.I have out pulled chev. & fords in the mts.The frames that posters say are weak Don't seem to be a problem.About some posters saying the truck is ugly that don't matter to me.The new chev. p/u looks like a sway back horse.The cab sets lower than the front & the bed.Besides that we all have different views on looks.The tundra is the best truck i've owned equal to a dodge diesel i had.Some folks think the new chev. & fords are the best & are not having trouble go to their forums & look & look again in 2 or 3 years Lots of problems will be showing up by then.
  • KCRam@EdmundsKCRam@Edmunds Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,497
    ..............Dec 07 / Dec 06 / +/- / CY 2007 / CY 2006 / +/-
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    F-Series / 55,069 / 70,580 / -22.0 / 690,589 / 796,039 / -13.2
    Silverado / 53,560 / 52,396 / 2.2 / 618,257 / 636,069 / -2.8
    Ram / 32,118 / 32,875 / -2.0 / 358,295 / 364,177 / -2.0
    Sierra / 19,782 / 17,541 / 12.8 / 208,243 / 210,736 / -1.2
    Tundra / 19,219 / 12,468 / 54.1 / 196,555 / 124,508 / 57.4
    Titan / 4,785 / 5,575 / -14.2 / 65,746 / 72,192 / -9.2
    Mark LT / 551 / 1,155 / -52.3 / 8,382 / 12,753 / -34.3

    Toyota damn near made their target... give 'em credit, although it took some massive incentives to do it.

    Ford took a beating this year; loss of over 100,000 units is a problem.

    The 09 F150 and Ram 1500 will both debut at Detroit/NAIAS in a couple of weeks, so Toyota and GM will see if the bar was matched or raised.

    kcram - Pickups Host

    KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Moderator

  • Its all about size and capacity. If Nissan and Toyota decide to make 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks, of course they can. By the way, hauling six to seven trains down a public highway is illegal. How the heck do you turn a corner? When we hauled fully loaded grain wagons, which are much heavier then the crop your showing on there, we could only legally tow two at a time. Plus, im sure your driving very slow, otherwise you would get far too much sway. Again, unless your driving in a straight line, i dont see how a six or seven trailer road train can turn a corner. Sorry.
  • Eyeball that front tire on that 52... notice that tire aint flat... and got that mud around it? That mud got there workin that one... it sure aint parked any now! We got us a boneyard with some ones in it now... but that 52 and a few others is still workin hard. We haul them trains field to field now... not on them twisty streets! Trouble with them forien ones is rustin and bustin. If them forien ones is lastin so long, where is all them hi-lux ones gone too? Answer that mystery now... and you will be closer too that truth on them forien ones, thats for sure. Good luck on this one now!

    image
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    kcram, good post. I've been curious of Tundra sales. I agree 100%, Toyota has been offering huge incentives to meet their 200k target. I believe they entered December at 177k units and facing month-to-month declines in sales. When I bought my Sierra there were few '07s on the lots of local dealers (I was shown 1 demo). OTOH, the local Toyota dealer I shopped a Tundra for had 26 '07s on the lot and was running display ads in the newspaper boasting $6k off the sticker. The salesman boasted he was "giving them away" and "not making a penny profit." I'm betting Toyota went ahead and produced 200k '07s, their target, despite light demand and pushed them on their dealer network with killer, give-away incentives.

    Ford has a huge problem. I read their financial problems are so deep they can't afford a full redesign of the F-150 so they're just "refreshening" the interior, grill, and some other minor tweaks. Long-term that's a failed strategy.

    The Tundra doesn't have to be as good as the rest of the pack, IMHO, because it's a Toyota. I know that sounds strange but I know a lot of people who only shop Toyota. A lot of friends kept impressing upon me the importance of buying a Toyota and nothing else. It isn't even an America vs. Japanese quality issue because only one suggested the Honda Ridgeline or the Nissan Titan.

    I could tell them the big differences in features/price/reliability between it and the Sierra I had discovered but it didn't impact them. It's a Toyota and, by definition, it's better than the rest. Who cares if they're recalled it twice? Who cares if the interior is sub-par? Who cares if it only has 4-star crash ratings? Who cares if the offer Toyota gave me on an '07 was over $5k greater than the offer I got on a better optioned '08 Sierra? It's gotta be inherently better. It's gotta be worth the $$$ premium.

    The fact is Honda is the top-rated car brand according to Consumer Reports. Toyota's actually slipping in their quality ratings.

    Tundras aren't yet really competing in the work truck category from what I've seen and heard. So the fact they aren't as tough (e.g., lack a fully boxed frame) as domestic full-size trucks isn't an issue yet. The casual users who are buying it for carrying DIY home projects and hauling junk to the dump don't care. It does surprise me that the Tundra doesn't offer a more sophisticated 4x4 system so these commuters can easily switch to it in snow and heavy rain but I'm sure Toyota will fix that problem in later model years.

    But the topic is asking if the Tundra will overtake the F-150 in sales just as Toyota dominates in other categories like minivans and cars. IMHO, they don't have a chance with the current design. To get volume it needs to become a fleet work truck. Toyota's bloated price makes that a difficult proposition. However, it does stand a chance of becoming a dominant fixture in the suburbs where affluent yuppies are more than happy to pay premiums for the 'prestige' of owning a Toyota.

    I've owned 2 Toyotas. Fine cars. But I paid a huge premium for them. Fine in the '80s when Detroit and Europe were pumping out unreliable junkers and the reliability choice came down pretty much to Honda vs. Toyota. Cars have generally gotten more reliable plus there are more good alternatives to Toyota (and Honda) like Hyundai.

    It'll be interesting to see how long Toyota can ride it's reputation. I just read a Consumer Reports' review of SUVs with 3 rows of seating. The Toyota Highlander was rated the best SUV they've ever tested. Really? If you read their review it sounds like a solid choice but hardly overwhelming. Stuff that CR used to choke on, especially when the car came from Detroit, didn't phase them like sub-par interior fit/finish/materials, the lowest crash test score of the group, so-so driving characteristics, weak child seat set-up, and cramped rear seating.

    The Buick Enclave that came in a clear 2nd in that group (overall, it's the 4th ranked SUV behind an Acura in 2nd and a Honda in 3rd), while hardly perfect, seemed better in all areas except some transmission shifting issues (somewhat fixed by a software upgrade) and poor gas mileage (by 3 mpg in a group of gas hogs so who cares?).

    Reliability wasn't an issue because both the Highlander and Enclave were new models and CR had no statistics so didn't consider it.

    Of course, CR has been criticized - rightly so, IMHO - in having a pro-Toyota bias.

    Domestic car/truck manufacturers have a long way to go in rebuilding their trashed reputations. Designing superior trucks that cost less doesn't appear to be helping them against the Tundra thus far. Over time, if they can keep producing a high-quality product maybe the 'I only buy Toyota' crowd will start to thin.
  • sknabt
    Excellent post, many good points. I also know some folks who just shop Honda, or just shop Toyota. Back in the 60s & 70s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything made in Japan - it was mostly cheasy junk. Then, the tide began to turn in the late 70s/early 80s when Japan went quality-oriented, while Detroit languished and rode its momentum into the ground. Then, thru the 90s and 00s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything from Detroit. That tide is now turning also. Funny what competition does (Root hog, or die!) But, it takes awhile for folks to see it. Humans are basically herd animals, and it takes a while for a herd to undergo a change of thinking. That's happening now with the Tundra vs. Big3, and it is magnified when Japan shows its soft underbelly - a desire for profits over quality, same as Detroit. However, I think the Japanese corporate culture allows for a faster recognition and fixing of the problems. Toyota will fix the problems and design errors, pronto. It won't take decades. If Detroit lets up Toyota will turn the tables in their favor - again.

    Where I disagree with you is your comment that building better trucks doesn't help the Big3. Wrong. It helps immensely. Look at total Big3 sales vs. Tundra. Tundra is a small fraction. Subtract out the "brand snobs" who only shop Toyota (50%??), and you have about 100,000 buyers who actually looked at all the offerings and still bought the Tundra. And how many of those actually work their trucks hard?

    Toyota has a looooong way to go to really crack that market, but I wouldn't necessarily bet against them.

    1offroader
  • It be yuppies who buy them forien ones... then they work them ones on that hi-way ride to them office buildings and grocery stores and such. But that workin man... he buys them big3 ones, them the ones with that haul. That tundra frame and tailgate is snappin if put to work any, thats the facts on that one now! We need trucks too work that field and such, not ones that bust and rust. It's not about no trends, it's about haul. Facts is facts. Good luck on this one now!
  • h20h20 Posts: 42
    run scarred cuz yuppiies are runnin up your bumm they are cummin to get ya and youl have to buy that [non-permissible content removed] make ya dont want tah cuz it is tha best ta keep that farm going ya no . open yur back woods eyes and see its commin ats ya all!!! buy the best not the american trade mark you think is the best. facts is facts right. or i could say imho over and over again.
  • Thanks for the info! I knew the figure was close for the Tundra.
  • LOL, way to go, H20. I have had wonderfuly detailed replies to his ranting but what a suprise, no response. Looks like he should stay in dem fields and off the forums...never left the county now...using some of his own product i thinks........yeszereeee....:) He like pictures of dem trucks on his farm...a relic...rustin away.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    You ever get that unidentifiable noise fixed on your Tundra? Ever figure out what it was?

    Good luck on this one now.
  • That one you be callin that relic is workin hard well over 50 years now. We hauled with that one as a younger. But where is all them hi-lux and t100 ones gone? Rustin and bustin, the way of them forien ones now. That tundra got that camry frame and sheet metal, good for workin that hi-way, but not them farms now. What part of this one aint folks gettin? Try workin that tundar one in them fields, then see which one gets parked quicker now! Facts is facts on this one now. Good luck on this one now!
  • Already answered all of your questions rube....scroll back and read the replies for a change. T-100 is not a full size truck. If you search online, most t-100's are still running and have at least 250,000 miles, and no rust. Plus their resale is higher than any of the old stuff you got. Compare the right classes rube. 1/2 ton to 1/2 ton, 3/4 to 3/4 and so on. You dont compare a 3/4 ton to a 1/2 ton. Problem with understanding or something? When Toyota and Nissan do make 3/4 tons, you bet they will be in them fields. New GM trucks got 88 technical service bullitons for all kinds of engine, electrical and drivetrain problems. Your trucks never leave the fields so what does that prove? Its called using a tractor rube. Its cheaper to operate and maintain. Your crop is not that heavy anyway.

    Plus a Camry does not have a frame, it has a unibody. The first generation Tundra, not t-100, had a fully boxed frame with eight crossmembers, no one else did at the time of its introduction. But again, i already said that. Toyota trucks dont sell where you live because of back water discrimination from people like you, afraid of change. I bet you still own a Zenith tv from the 70's. Thank God the good Lord invented an ignorance control method known as passing away.
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