Where is Honda taking Acura?

danilo

Check out Tires.com or Tirerack.com

Both have winter packages and you should be able to go with 16" rims unless you have the A-spec. I would suggest Siempert performance snows if they have them. Makes a world of difference

ggesq

You keep saying that the RL is 53k. It's not so stop spreading untruths. The RL can be had in the low 40's.

ggesq

TSX: IMHO if the next TSX looks anything like the Sports4 Concept or any of the sketches it will be beautiful. Couple that with a turbo 4 and an optional 6 w/ SH-AWD and the TSX will be hot.

TL: If the 4GTL is anything like the 3GTL when it first came out then the entry level performance sedan market will be shaken up in 08. Personally, I would like a RWD platform w/ AWD optional. Manual tranny and at the very least 300+hp.

RL: Needs a V8, RWD (w/AWD optional) and manual tranny, period. Maybe even have the optional NSX V10.

Just my .02.

ggesq

So did you buy or lease???

How many miles?

My wife "had" an e46 that was a complete mess in and out of warranty. I won't discuss *other family members and friends and their respective experiences with BMW but the experiences are not good. Drives great but that's about it.

The 4yr/ 50k warranty is awesome! I wish other companies would follow suit. But, I have a hard time owning German out of warranty.

danilo

2007 Acura RL

MSRP: $45,780 to $53,200 Plus $670 destination charge in my area. Means;

$46,450 to $53,870, I am simply stating MSRP numbers,

danilo

Actually, I bought. I have heard repairs are expensive but have not experienced it personally. I had 65K on my '04 and now I just turned 21K on my '06.

ggesq

I appreciate you quoting MSRP. However, because RL sales are dismal, they can be bought in the low 40's. That's a pretty good bargain IMHO.

danilo

Hate to say it but for $40grand I would have to consider it.

british_rover

Oh please I sell Land rovers which if you look at the reliable studies are the most worthless POS's on the road and you can't make it off the lot without having problems.

Any make can build a Lemon. I have clients with 200K plus miles on their vehicles that have had only minor problems that should be expected on a vehicle with that many miles and I have never had to lemon law a vehicle that I sold in my career.

You can't just give one or two anecdotal examples of pure reliablity or good reliablity.

m1miata

Very nice Honda, but really $40K ??? And they are not RWD. Hummm!

louiswei

Here's my list, I think it is a little more ambitious than ggesg's.

TSX: 4 banger turbo should be fine, don't really see Acura offers engine choice at this point though. Needs 250+ HP and MSRP starting at $28,500. SH-AWD a must.

TL: V6 (with turbo maybe) and SH-AWD puts out 350+ HP with MSRP starting at $34,000 well equipped (everything except Navi).

RL: Put a V-8 on this car PLLLLEASE. 400 HP with MSRP starting at $43,000.

NSX: V-10 with 600 HP. MSRP at $80K.

Need a large sedan slots above RL. Could have the same V8 with 450+ HP. MSRP at $55,000 to undercut Lexus' LS.

Coupe version for both TL and TSX.

Manual tranny throughout the lineup except SUVs.

RDX and MDX are fine in my opinion.

Replace Type-S with something different but similar (sounds too boy racer and too "Honda" to me) then make it Acura's factory tuner department like the M, AMG, S/RS and -F.

goodegg

Ya sure there's nothing else?

These are huge demands. And why all this extra horsepower? It'll only raise their prices. And Acura's hook is definitely their pricing.

rockylee

I as many of you know am a very loyal GM fan and a son, step-son, nephew, cousin, grandson, of many General Motors employees. I am just a bit biased towards GM products. I however in my stint of disloyalty to GM (long story) I said I'm going to but the best car money can buy in terms of value. I upon my very extensive research which included weeks of gaining knowledge about the million different brands I came to the conclusion that the Acura brand offers the consumer the most car i.e. premium features, reliability, quality, styling, fuel economy, performance, for your dollar.

I then bought a 2005' Acura TL. When I was picked up from the airport my car salesmen was driving a 05' Acura RL and I liked it so much I almost opted right there to buy a RL over the TL. He did give me the pleasure of taking it for a spin and I melted. I thought the SH-AWD was just a honda gimmick but I'm here to tell you the system really works and you can "feel" it work. I however was not disappointed in my acura TL selection that day because it impressed me very much. If I ever were to buy a non-domestic brand again I can guarantee you it most likely would be another acura product even though I had a horrible customer service experience. The Acura cars are just that good for me to give them another shot at earning my business. I've driven friends BMW's and yes they are indeed nice performance cars. I however don't plan on racing everyone in my daily commutes and Acura's are very close in BMW performance any how. BMW, released the landmark BMW 335i and yes many consider this the benchmark. I IMHO believe the 2009' Acura TL will shock the world like the 2004' model year did when it recieves SH-AWD and 320+ hosepower. It sent BMW designers and engineers back to the drawing board so they could hold on the that "benchmark" crown. I guarantee you all the next RL will be something revolutionary and yes it will have either a VTEC V8 or VTEC V10 from the NSX.

I am excited to see Acura push their SH-AWD technology because it does make cars perform as good if not better than RWD. I guess the evidence will be more of a showing once Acura spices up the horsepower numbers. The SH-AWD system also can improve safety because of its all-weather capability. People often think of AWD systems are only useful in snow but nothing could be further from the truth.

I only see one other system on the market that might be as good if not better than Acura's SH-AWD system and that's Mitsubishi's all-wheel drive—S-AWC
(Super All Wheel Control)—taking center stage. Along with the Active Center Differential from previous generations, the Concept-X sports the Active Yaw Control of the Japanese-market Evo along with Active Braking Control, Active Steering Control and Roll Control Suspension technologies to create one of the most comprehensive and advanced road-holding systems ever seen.

If Mitsubishi, offered Aura levels of quality, and fit and finish then I would have to seriously consider them. Until I see the EVO-X in person or at least get to see pictures and tests of the final product I'd have to say the drive-train technology is impressive on paper but will the rest of the car impress ????? This is something Acura, doesn't have to worry about because it already has a reputation of impressing and thus the SH-AWD system might just make more dollars and sense.

Rocky

rockylee

I think the pricing increase honestly will be marginal because they understand that consumers look at the brand as value. "Most car I can buy for my dollar" logic.

Rocky

kratas101

Finally I'm not alone! I thought I was one of the few that have GM/Hondas share garages

justg0

I was recently in the market for a sporty suv (yeah, 2 words which usually do not go together) and looked at BMW X3/X5, Audi Q7 (V6/V8), Mercedes GL 450 and Acura MDX (2007 models only). I was able to quickly eliminate GL 450 as I found that to be quite "ordinary" and non-sporty. But out of the other 3, I just could not decide. I did extended test drives for each (2 - 4 hrs.) had also got Q7 home overnight. In these test drives, I was alone without the salesman and did some rigorous tests, like 60 - 0 hard braking, taking exit ramps rated at 25 mph at 60 mph, driving on part road - part dirt, quickly changing lanes on freeways and passing, ... All the testing were done in both dry and wet conditions - no snow (this is in Seattle).

At the end of the day, each one of these vehicles X5, Q7 and MDX 07 drove just great. Yeah, there were some minor differences, but nothing stood out clearly. So at the end of the day, it came down to value and Acura MDX 07 won that argument hands done. For under 50 K, I got all the features in the car that would have cost me between 60 - 70 K on the others. My favorite feature so far: "Find nearest indian restaurant...". I love talking to my car!

BTW, for people interested in reading more about sh-awd and other awd systems:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_4_41/ai_n13675707 - this one has Audi saying how they would like to put some of the sh-awd features in their quattro system (this is an old 2005 article).

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd_2.htm - describes each of the popular all wheel drive systems.

If MDX 07 is any indication, I think Acura is heading in very exciting direction. I used to count older MDX as a minivian, but after driving the my new 07 MDX for now almost a week, I have become a big fan

ggesq

Yeah- folks are picking them up in the low 40's. Nope- their all AWD. Alot of value for 40k IMHO.

Personally, I'd like to see Acura take the RL- make it RWD w/ AWD option, std V8 w/ a V10 option and a manual tranny option. That should do the trick.

ggesq

I completely agree with your assessment. However, if I'm dropping 35k+ on probably one of the most stupidest "investments" for lack of a better term, I'm going to spend it on a vehicle that I know will last me a while before dumping loads of cash into it once its out of warranty.

6sptl

People keep running around in circles around the RL, its just dumb :P . The RL is a "sporty" luxury sedan, not an M5 or an RS6. It offers decent acceleration (0-60 in the high 6's and a 1/4 at 90 mph or so) it offers the most advanced AWD system on the planet which allows it to maintain a comfortable ride while allowing it to handle superbly on curves (its not an autocrosser either). Its safety features and rankings are second to none. It's superbly comfortable and has a killer radio, plus it offer every electronic doodad you could ask for. Furthermore, it offers all this at a better price (when comparably equipped) than any of its competitors. If that is insufficient to fulfill your sport sedan expectations feel free to buy any german mechanical nightmare you wish, your mechanic will appreciate it immensely!
Should Acura build a higher performance vehicle, sure! But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the RL. As it stands the RL is the best Honda has to offer and among the most highly engineered cars on the planet.

autoboy16

Whilst i like your optimism, your numbers are WAYY to high!!! Who "NEEDS" 400hp in a "family" sedan!!

Lets revise some of them eh?

Tsx: The current 2.4 and a 2.3 turbo is fine. Sh-awd is only a must with the turbo.

Tl only needs 280-315hp. It competes with the CTS, s60, G35, and in some cases the lexus Is and GS and 350+hp is TOO HIGH!! Needs SH-AWD or RWD.

Rl needs between the 290hp in a standard model and 350 in the v8 model. THAT car competes with the monsters like the 550i! It should be a FULL SIZE sedan! It should be with the 750i, the ls460, A8 ect.

NSX and 400hp is fine! Maybe a 600hp option to be with the Z06 corvette...

A Hardtop convertible version of the Tl (BRINGING BACK THE CL) is fine. Coupes don't sell as well as they used to. This idea drops acura with the 07 328i, C70, and EOS.

RDX is GREAT as is MDX. MDX needs the RLs v8 IMO for beasts like the FX45, X5, and Cayenne.

And the Type-s thing... They are working on it. Google RL-A-spec. It has a small 4l v8 but a v8 is better than non!

-Cj

louiswei

I agree with you, nobody "needs" 400 HP but not to have it would hurt a brand's image.

Let's look at the recent new offerings from Acura's competitors:

2006 IS350: 306 HP
2007 335i: 300 HP (rumor to have 330)
2007 G35: 306 HP

Since the next gen TL will be introduced before the replacements of the above 3, it definitely needs around 340-350 HP in order to "stay competitive" (not just be competitive at time of launch) throughout its lifespan unlike the current TL.

Again, my list was based on assuming Acura not offering engine choice. It'll be great if they do but I just don't see it at this point.

ggesq

I agree with alot of what your saying. The problem is- its sales. They suck! Acura needs to do something with the RL ( as well as the TSX and TL). Basically take a relatively good product and make it more competitive in its respective market segment.

sazmitty312

these are my thoughts about what acura should do:

with the 08 TSX: i would HIGHLY recommend acura to not to put the turbo-4 in it cuz it'll have sluggish fuel economy like the RDX (16-19!). instead i'd put the small honda accord v6 in it cuz it has decent horsepower (240 hp) to compete with the IS 250/A4 2.0 turbo/328i/C230. i would also put the SH-AWD as an option and front-wheel drive to make some room for the next TL.

Next gen-TL-i would put the big MDX V6 with slightly more horsepower and have RWD standard and SH-AWD as an option.

RL: put a damn V8 in it with a manual and RWD standard and an automatic and SH-AWD as an option. i might also consider a RL Type-S with the NSX V10 in it to compete with the M5, GS-F, S6, and E-AMG.

NSX: V10 is a great choice and HP should be around 500-550 to compete with GALLARO, Nissan GTr, and the Lexus LF-A. It should have a manual standard and a RWD- based SH-AWD...a ratio of 30-70.

MDX: the current one's great but they should put a V8 in it to compete with the X5 4.5, GL 450, Q7 4.2 and the upcoming Lexus LX 5.7 and to diferenciate it a little more from the RDX!

RDX: i'd seriously remove the turbo and put a small accord V6 in it to get better fuel-economy and add some luxury in it like freaking memory and power seats!

And one more thing.....PLEASE add a FULL-SIZE SEDAN to their line-up to give lexus atleast some competition. the sales last month were tremendous (3500+ units)!

I don't know acura is going to quadruple its sales by 2011 (that's what their goal is) if they don't do some serious changes like these to their line-up!

ggesq

I agree with you. Acura needs to have class leading hp in this segment and make sure to mate it to a manual tranny option for the 4GTL.
I sincerely doubt they will spend $$ for the 4GTL in R & D to offer RWD. If they would take some of their superb engineering prowess from the S2000 and NSX- the TL IMHO would be a hard car to beat.

robertsmx

Acura needs to...
- Make RL larger
- More stylish
- Offer better lease deals (a must in that price class)

Move to RWD will definitely help, as it should allow them to offer similar features they do today but at a lower price. SH-AWD can always be an option for the few who opt for something like it.

IMO, TSX is fine (size and orientation). All it needs with redesign is a higher powered model with sport package. Turbo 2.3 with SH-AWD could do it.

TL too could share RWD platform with RL, and be priced from $35-40K. SH-AWD can always be an option, as should be Sport Package. Based on reviews by those who have driven the TL-S (including R&T), all that car really needs is RWD.

I am all for SH-AWD but for following reasons:
- cost (must be adding $2500-3000 to the price)
- weight (additional 220-240 lb)
- efficiency (AWD systems add to greater drivertrain loss)

sazmitty312

HP:

TSX: V6 with around 240

TL: 306 at least the minimum to compete with the IS 350, BMW 330, and G35!

RL: V6 with 300-310 hp and a V8 with around 340-380 to compete with the GS460, BMW 550, E550, Audi A6 4.2, Infiniti M45 and a Type-S with a V10 with around 500 hp!

MDX: Add a V8 with 350 hp

NSX: V10 with 500-550 hp!

nippononly

is to quadruple its sales by 2011? Oh heck, there's no way THAT'S happening. Not unless they've got about four tricks up their sleeves that I haven't heard about, NOT including the next-gen NSX (which while it sounds like it will be great, is a niche seller in a niche segment after all).

Acura already sells very well for a near-lux/lux company. I don't how they could achieve a four-fold sales increase. I wouldn't mind seeing them bring the TSX wagon from Europe - that would be cool and a sporty alternative to the gas-guzzling RDX, which has the ride height of an SUV of course.

They also need a proper sports car, I think. They are Honda, after all. But one a little more accessible than the future NSX. Could they do a Corvette fighter? And how about a stretch-RL? The RL is a small car inside considering it is their largest/top of the line.

autoboy16

But what is HP when the MPG and Torque is low. The 335i is so powerful because it has equal 300hp and lb ft of torque. Thats the problem with most acura models!

The TL standard engine should be the 3.5l unit with 280hp, 250lb ft and at least 22city and 32highway.

The Tsx should keep the 2.4l but it needs 20more horses. Also the type-s TSX should offer the tl's 3.2lv6 with 260hp and around the same MPG as the TL.

The CL {ACURA NEEDS IT BACK} should look like the TL and TSX but with the TSX's Interior design. Think Volvo C70. IT needs the Tsx's 2.4l with 215-230hp and the type-s 3.2l with 260-300hp (already beat the C70), hardtop convertible, and a $32k base at and manual, $35k for the base with NAVI, $37k for the type-s with both trannys and $40k with the navi and thats SUPER competitive with the C70, Eos, upcoming 328i, and CLK. Make SH-AWD an option and thats a GREAT car.

The rl must be a full size sedan and keep the same price. The reason the RL doesn't sell is because people see it like this:

"I like the RL but not for $50k when i can a bit smaller and much better looking Tl for $15k less! The TL doesn't get AWD but it has almost equal hp, better MPG, and a nicer less complicated interior! It still gets the same Nav with traffic and dual climate..."

-Cj

louiswei

Maybe Acura could move both RL and TL upmarket and make TSX its solely entry level sedan. This could save Acura the cost to develop a large sedan and achieve the goal to become a full luxury brand.

TSX = compact luxury sedan (3er, IS, G fighter)
TL = midsize luxury sedan (5er, GS, E fighter)
RL = fullsize luxury sedan (7er, LS, S fighter)

robertsmx

is to quadruple its sales by 2011?

Where did you read that?

ggesq

You wanna hear something funny? I'll tell ya anyway.

Back in 05 when I bought my TL- that's what one of the salesman told me"

TSX = compact luxury sedan (3er, IS, G fighter)
TL = midsize luxury sedan (5er, GS, E fighter)
RL = fullsize luxury sedan (7er, LS, S fighter)

hahaha. I quickly explained to him that I am an "informed" buyer and know exactly where these vehicles sit in the market. He chuckled a little bit (admitting I was correct) and then worked out the car deal.

rockylee

The customer is always right, even if he's wrong. However not neccessarily in your case though.

I do see the TL compeating with the BMW 3 obviously more so than you.

Rocky

dhamilton

Hey Rocky, I know you had trouble with a TL, but never read what it was?

Please go drive an S4 Rocky. It's bliss

ggesq

huh? I don't get it. I do think that the TL and 3 series (non M-3) are competitors. My salesman was trying to tell me that the TL competes with the 5 series, E class, GS, M.... :confuse:

rockylee

Your salesman doesn't know his cars very well.

Rocky

robertsmx

If Acura could do just a few things, it will gain prestige far more quickly and become a brand to be reckoned with in the luxury class. Honda has the capacity to do that. All that is needed is willingness.

TL and RL can benefit immensely by sharing a Front Engine/RWD platform. While TL could do away with a 300 HP 3.5/V6, RL could use that engine and have a 350 HP 4.5/V8 as an option. SH-AWD can be an option on both cars.

It will be nice to see a 2+2 luxury coupe that shares trait with TL (mid size) and RL (full size), and offered with drop top too. Let us call it the next CL. In this process, TL can comfortably sit in $35K-45K price class, while RL takes the flag from there, and serves $45K-$60K price class. CL could sit somewhere in between.

How about a high performance GT utilizing the same FR platform and 4.5/V8 with 450-500 HP (and/or if Honda wants, the rumored V10) to top things off?

At the lower end, TSX can continue to share platform with Accord and offered with two engines. The base can continue to be the existing engine but with DI good for 210 HP, while a Type-S model with SH-AWD and turbo charged 2.3 can top the lineup at $35K.

How about revival of RSX which is basically a TSX coupe but with one engine option (2.3 turbo and SH-AWD only)?

CSX can provide yet another interesting option as an entry level sedan. But instead of being a clone to Civic sedan, I would love to see more styling differentiation and it would be great if it includes the 5-door sedan style that was offered in 1996-2000 European Civic (and 1998-2002 Accord), basically a hatchback that looks more like a sedan (Link to a Picture). That bodystyle, Acura features and 2.4/I-4 from Accord should work well in the USA.

RDX too could use the 3.5/V6, and the 4.5/V8 could find its use in MDX. And I didn’t forget NSX. Would love to see it return with MR layout and with the same spirit as the original, to go with a V8 or V10.

Aah, the power of dreams!

ggesq

Hope I don't get slammed for this but- most car salesmen don't know their cars very well.

louiswei

Oh god no, not the CSX, it is just a rebadged and glorified Honda Civic. We are trying to find a way to make Acura move UPMARKET here. Not DOWNMARKET.

robertsmx

Read my post again. I don't like the way it is right now. CSX can (and should) share platform with Civic, but must look and feel substantially different.

robbieg

Why does everyone want to move the tsx up in price. The car was a success because of its price point. Same goes for both the current TL and the previous generation TL. These cars were all priced right. The RL failed because it costs too much. By adding all of those features to an RL you are making it even more expensive.

louiswei

IMO, Acura shouldn't have anything that's smaller than the TSX and FWD, PERIOD. I personally think it's good for Acura that they decided to kill the RSX. Although some 18-year-old will scream "Bloody Murder" but I think it is improving Acura's overall image. If the goal is to move UPMARKET here then having anything that's sharing platform with Civic is BAD NEWS.

rockylee

Hey Rocky, I know you had trouble with a TL, but never read what it was?

Check your e-mail

Please go drive an S4 Rocky. It's bliss

Love the last generation S4 a lot better than this generation. We don't have a Audi dealership around here so I can't do that without driving 4-5 hours. :sick:

Rocky

goodegg

My point as well, but something has to be done to breathe some life into the sales numbers.

I think Acura's best moves will be SH-AWD for the TL, turbo for the TSX, and a V8 option for the RL.

robertsmx

Since you responded to me, I am assuming you included me among "everyone". I suggested addition of a more powerful Type-S model that is bound to cost more (due to suggested addition of SH-AWD, sport tuned chassis and turbo charging). But at the same time, I suggested a base price that isn't different from what exists today (that isn't higher, TSX sells in that $28K-$30K range).

That said, I am not averse to higher price, if it can be justified via better quality/features. Its a reason I expect and would pay $3K more for TSX than I would for Accord EX-L.

jblaze13

I agree. Leave the prices alone! The Japanese manufacturers are more value oriented than the Germans they keep being compared to.

Does anyone live where it snows anymore? All the convert FWD to RWD talk is disturbing. Nissan has done well in the U.S. with having the Inifiti brand vehicles RWD biased and the Nissan brand FWD biased but.....should you have to drive RWD if you want to purchase a luxury car? I don't think so. Let someone make FWD luxury. I know Saab, Volvo, and Lexus (just barely) will still make them but I'm sure people will be calling for them to convert as well. I'm sure someone here will tell me what I'm missing. I don't proclaim to be an expert but am I the only one who is seeing this trend? What am I missing?

danilo

Yes agree the price needs to stay about where it is now. The RL's sales have been dismal due to the price. As soon as it hit the $50k mark it lost it's appeal to some. Value still needs to be a factor. RWD vehicles tend to be more balanced, meaning the front to rear weight ratio. FWD vehicles tend to have torque steer. (unbalanced) The new Camry is a prime example. While Acura has made great progress it this arena, the addition of AWD would solve the Torque steer issue somewhat. Remember, FWD came into the picture for cost savings to car manufacturers. The thought was to have the drive wheels where the weight is. Unfortunately, this caused the front to rear weight ratio to become out of wack sending the handling into a frenzy. Today, the technology is here to compensate for the lack of balance in the weight distribution. now a balanced weight distribution with AWD or even RWD would be a great combo. So RWD is good due to the fact by design, more weight gets distributed to the rear thus creating a more balanced vehicle.

jblaze13

I'm under the impression that FWD still has the advantage in low traction situations. Has that changed? I know AWD is better than both for low traction but FWD has to be next best.

rockylee

That is all true. However a heavy duty wide wheel base RWD car is easier to control on ice from my prior experience.

Rocky

autoboy16

The way i see it, the only way the TSX can be RWD is to be built off of a stretched s2000 platform. That would be good for the TSX but not for acura's image.

Isn't acura's slogan something like "Advance through technology" or something? Well acura is advanceing if slowly. As usual, honda doesn't rush for no one!

ALL THIS REPETITION IN HERE IS NOT GOOD!! Lets send acura a letter! The hardtop cabrio CL, the Turbo Tsx type-s, the Sh-awd tl, the v8 RL/MDX are great ideas.

Regardless, honda's current focus is with its diesel engines and getting the next TSX ready. I believe that by this time next year, a 2.4l iCtdi diesel Tsx will be available.

Read about the next tsx here and the diesel engine here

-Cj The Diesel Races are underway with DCX in 1st, Vw in 2nd, and everyone else in a close 3rd. :P :shades:

autoboy16

I read somewhere and the author was comparing FWD and Rwd to puching and pulling. Fwd is pulling the weight of the car around the corner vs RWD pushing the weight around a corner. Thats why RWD is perfered over FWD but now some companies have bridged the gap. Takes Acuras Tsx for example.

-Cj