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Ford Excursion vs Chevy Suburban/GMC Yukon XL - The battle of the titans

skeewb_4287skeewb_4287 Posts: 17
edited April 5 in Chevrolet
No holds barred. It doesn't matter if you've got
facts or just opinions. Just say what you've got to
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Comments

  • mako28mako28 Posts: 7
    I think this monster SUV thing is a joke. I have no problem with people who need a "real" truck to get work done, but when it becomes a way to get to the mall, that's where I draw the line. The suburban has been around for quite some time now, granted it got a major face lift a few years back, but it wasn't a common site to see on the road. If you did, it probaly was towing something or had a full load of sporting gear inside. Point is, it was for function. Now, with this penis envy thing going on with SUV's, ford releases its excursion. What a waiste of space!
    As you can notice, I am not a fan of Ford. That said, if I do see an excursion being "worked" you'll hear no complaints from me. However, I don't see that much anymore, both in Fords and Chevy's. My question is why? These are very large trucks! If you can give me an good excuse I will listen. How often do you plan to fill it up? You won't be passing up Jeeps, or anything else in the dirt. ( The damn thing will high center in a heart beat!) So it can't be for off-roading. Why!
    Again, if you actually use it, I'm on your side, so don't get mad at me. ( I am a SUV owner) However, if it is your mall runner, I'd like to hear your reasons.
  • Why, to pull a 34' TT plus hall 4 to 7 people.
    Please tell me anything else that will do as good a job safely
  • mako28mako28 Posts: 7
    Maybe I misunderstood what your reply is about. Your answer, for hard work and / or not renting a bus, right. If you understand my little rant, I said that, " if you use it, I'm on your side.". In otherwords, I totaly agree with you. If you have a tractor to move around the large SUV is the only option, unless you want a huge pick-up. But we all know, for the most part, the two large SUV's are mostly a pick-up with a shell and seats. You are a user, more power to you, infact I hope you have one of those "really cool" ones!
    My problem is with the mall runners and the sole users that never tow a thing. If it were a select few that used it for that pointless use, I wouldn't mind. ( Like the Hummer, I bet most aren't used anywhere near their potential, but they aren't seen all over the road. It's not a trend. It bugs me as an off-roader, but not enough to try and solve it.) However, the large SUV's are now a trend, and I want to know why. I'm not saying everyone is a fool. I am a believer in "to each his own", but I'd love to hear their reasons! as far as safety goes, they aren't legal tanks. The safety belief of these beasts are overdone. My Wrangler would cause sever damage to one.
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    You obviously do not have a family to look after. The "trend" as you call it consists of people with families who used to drive station wagons and minivans, are now seeing a more attractive alternative with the SUV's. I can't speak for the Excursion, because I think it has gone too far, but the Suburban is not that big of a vehicle for a regular family of 4 or more. That extra space comes in real handy if you have an outdoors type family, for camping, boating, skiing, etc. Its just nice to be able to keep everything inside, out of the elements. I really doubt there are very many which are just used to get groceries. What cave have you been living in?

    The Suburban is NOT just a truck with a shell. You would really have to drive one for yourself to see what I mean. They are built on different frames, have different suspension, steering, linkage, the whole works.

    Also, I have owned a Wrangler in my earlier years, and believe me, you would not want to meet one of these head on, on the road.
  • mwk2mwk2 Posts: 1
    I took delivery of my Limited 2x4 Excursion with the V-8 on December 30th. This vehicle has it all over the suburban ( owned two in the past 6 years). The comfort and room make a great travel vehicle. I am getting 15.5 mpg which is just a little worse than my suburbans were getting. I have not found a single flaw with Excursion and am looking forward to many trips to the lakes this summer.
  • mako28mako28 Posts: 7
    Okay, still, my point is being misunderstood. I am not here to talk anyone out of the SUV. Let it be known, I like Suburbans ( actually I like the tahoe more ) and wouldn't mind owning one someday. I also strongly agree with Ford going too far with its excursion. You seem to be the type who uses it. Like I said before, more power to you!
    I have lived in three "caves". Phoenix and Las Vegas, big cave huh? The other is Tucson, which I would agree with calling it a cave :) Maybe in your parts, people use their trucks, but trust me, where I'm from people often use them for grocery runners. The use of these SUVs are primarly for status and / or the feeling of superiorness ( the same I guess ) in my areas. Visit Phoenix and you'll see. Again, trust me, they are being used just the same as a Accord in me home town, like it or not.
    You are right, I don't have a family yet, but that is not to say I don't understand. I do. It is a great SUV for the family that "plays". A 4-runner probaly wouldn't do the trick for a camping trip with a family of 4 -5, unless you want to tow a trailer or stack the roof.
    Is it possible you are trying to speak the part for the user I don't understand? Well it seems you and I see two different things. If you haven't seen the use of these SUV the way I have, how can you rationalize them? I'm sure they thank you, but you are a user of the SUV ( and a x-Jeep owner, which makes you great and very credible!). However, I don't think we'll find an answer. I to, playing the opposite role, would say the same things you have said.
    Maybe I didn't complete my message fully on my Jeep vs. Suburban or EX. I know my jeep would be damaged. What I meant was that my Jeep would cause alot of damage. ( I have it lifted enough to where I look the driver of an excurrsion directly in the eyes, plus extra bumpers and so forth.) Why do I say this? Well besides tooting my own horn, I have had an excursion pull out in front of me, and a ton of other traffic, and you could just tell that they did it because they believed they were in a bus and everyone would just have to slow down. After all, they were invincalbe, right. Point is, my Jeep, or any other truck with size, would have smashed their rear end terribly. And if a car hit it, who know?
    Actually it is that experience that brings me to this point of thinking. My problem is with drivers like that. I'm sure you can understand.
  • Mako28---I believe it is you who is being very closed minded about the folks who choose to have a Suburban or Excursion. I am a mom, wife, gardener, camper, etc., I use my '90 Suburban for groceries, taking my kids to the doctor, gymnastics, McDonalds, Grandma's, etc. It is our family car and if my husband is home with the kids, he is home with the family car. We choose to have a larger vehicle for our family because we feel it is safer to have more room between you and someone else on the road. As far as the Excursion purposely pulling out in front of you and on coming traffic-------there are sometimes circumstances beyond thinking you are in a bus to have that happen....did you think that maybe they might have had a baby crying in one car seat and a toddler in another car seat asking for something and the mother and/or father was simply distracted. My husband and I are currently shopping for a new family vehicle and we are strongly looking at the Excursion...not for prestige but for the size and safety of the vehicle. If I wanted prestige I would buy a mercedes not a 4 x 2 truck!!!!!! We are going tonight to view and test drive the Suburban to make sure we are making the right decision...not once have we considered anything smaller as we feel the larger SUV's offer the most protection for our children. As I am the one who spends the most time with our children I will be the primary driver and I will use it to go grocery shopping, cloths shopping, plant shopping or to the convenient store at the corner of our subdivision for a gallon of milk!! BTW - my husband drives the Jeep Cherokee Wagoneer 4x4.
  • mako28mako28 Posts: 7
    I read all these post, doesn't take too long thankfully :), and it seems to me like I'm the bad guy. I have made every effort I can not to be offensive or personal. Not to be rude, but how can you say "closed minded"? If I was closed minded wouldn't I be ranting that everone should not get one because I don't like them ( and I DO LIKE THEM), plus I am asking questions so I can understand it better. When I understand your reasons, we can better debate the subject, if need be. If that is closed minded, I give up! Tell me how I can not be then.
    I understand that my view of the person cutting me off could have been a simple "woops!". Maybe you're right. However, me being there makes me think otherwise. I guess you had to be there. I give up on that one to.
    I really don't care what you drive, as long as you like it. Honestly. I am playing a debate starting role though. I want to hear more reasons, not to change your mind, but to educate mine.
    Now jumping on the other side of the fence, have you seen the new Suburban? If you have been a fan, you probaly will like the new one. Personally, I feel the chevy is a much better SUV. I have had nothing but problems with my companies fords! Plus my good friend is a HUGE car fan (trucks included) and I value his opinion. He also believes Fords tend to "die" pretty quickly. Plus the Exursion is so new to this game, I think Chevy just has more experience with the large SUV.
    Okay, hopefully we're all friends again! Groceryrun, I don't understand it, but oh well. I pretty much give up on it. I ask questions, they hardly get answered, but I sure do get alot of replies about how wrong I am. And I don't recall calling anyone closed minded.
  • Mako28--

    Sorry if I seemed so harsh on the "close minded" comment...just seems that most of the people who "bash" the large SUV drivers are those who don't have them.

    We did test drive both the 2000 Suburban and the 2000 Excursion tonight and I honestly prefer the Excursion because of the interior layout. Very kid friendly and roomy inside. There were some safety features for the kids that I really appreciated, the child locks on the sides of the doors, the back seat belts being adjustable (the shoulder harness) for those growing years, the window locks, etc. These are all standard features on the limited AND are available with the Suburban for an extra fee. I personally am not crazy about the diesel engine but my husband refuses to consider anything else---so we compromise. As far as the price of the two....they are just a couple of hundred dollars apart.

    Once having a family and being active outdoors, whether camping, bike riding or traveling a large automobile such as this is wonderful to own. It is much easier to go bigger than to go from big to small. Each year we travel from Texas to Florida to visit family and on the way home camp for 4 nights in Georgia. This means that we are not only bringing clothing for 10 days in Florida but camping gear too and our '90 Suburban is just the right size....the new Excursion is the closest thing to the old Suburban's interior size.

    Being a gardener, I love the cargo space in the rear for packing in my finds.....as far as the engine thing, that is my husbands department and he does has some concerns about it just being too much vehicle. We are trying to do our research and get folks opinions. On the way home this evening we spoke to a neighbor w/5 children who recently purchased her Excursion---she loves it!!! Says it's the closest thing to her 1988 Suburban for size and wouldn't go with anything else. She can fit it into her garage fine (standard size)and says she has had no trouble with parking garages at the Galleria or Medical Center. She too expressed how much she liked the interior set up of the Excursion over the new Suburban.

    So, I hope this helps you understand the reasons people like me who don't tow or work ranches prefer the larger vehicle...it is mainly for comfort.
  • mako28mako28 Posts: 7
    Great! That is what I was looking for. I have yet to see the interior of the Excursion, so I am clueless there. But like I said, I am a Chevy man, so I am biased. Hope you enjoy it!
    I agree with the common beliefe of those who bash SUVers tend to be oblivious to anyone's opinions and desires. I have spent many hours rationalizing my use of my lifted Wrangler to them. I don't think I got anywhere. It is a debate that will never die.
  • Being the former owner of an '86 Dodge 15 passenger 1-ton van, and the current owner of a '93 Ford E-150 Conversion Van, I see the exclamations about the size of SUVs as kind of funny. But size is a liability, once you get to a certain point. Trust me on this. Try parking a big van or SUV in any major metro area. Try getting an adrenaline rush from stomping on the pedal (pffft! yeah, right). Try stuffing one into a regular garage.

    Yes, roomy = good in my book, but it can go too far. I've got three kids to tote around , not three pro basketball players.

    I need a 4x4 (mainly for snow and sand) that can fit in a garage (again, for snow) with passing power at 80 MPH ( :-) ) decent handling (not overly sensitive to cross winds at highway speeds) excellent torque (for said boat and potently pulling an 8000 pound 'dozer), shovel options (there's that snow again) that can comfortably haul a family of five and their associated gear for frequent trips to the outback.

    Oh, and did I mention that 13 MPG on the higway is unacceptable, and that I absolutely hate my current Ford?

    Hmmm, I wonder if I actually need two vehicles?

    ;-)
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    One thing is for sure, you won't get PFFFT from the new Suburban. The 5.3L engine is great. I assume you've already driven one. It must really seem like a luxury car drive compared to those big old vans...
  • If you want a F-350 with extra seats and a roof on the back, get the Ford. If you want a versatile vehicle that will haul just about anything with a comfortable ride, get the Chevy. Oh, and for mako28, the reason I have one is I can't haul my family and boat with my Corvette. And BTW, no flame but you are very long-winded.
  • zsem03zsem03 Posts: 1
    Believe it or not, our marketplace is driven by supply and demand. This means that if I demand a certain type of vehicle, the manufacturers will supply it. Nobody has to explain to you why they want a certain vehicle. If you (and a signifant portion of other people} don't want it, it won't be produced). This whole "I can't afford a giant SUV so therefore nobody else can have one" is riduculous. The currently popular idea that SUV's are unfair because they are safer than the traditional autos is bullsh..t. It's like dumbing down of America...if you want safety, buy it. Don't complain apout it.
  • mako28mako28 Posts: 7
    As I said before, I give up! How many times do I need to say that I DON'T CARE what you drive! I happen to like the big suv's. I like to here peoples reasons for certain purchases. And those reasons don't need to be understood by me to be okay. If you say you own one simply because it is easier for you to scratch your groin while driving than it is in a smaller car, then so be it. You have no problems from me. I'm just trying to get an interesting topic going here.
    Maybe I am long winded, sorry, but it seems like my point has never been understood correctly. I am just tierd of people thinking I am one of those a-holes who hate SUV's.
    Zsem03, was that directed at me? If so, I'm sorry. Maybe reread what I said, you'll see that I agree with you.
    I am happy to see that the majority of the replies on this topic are in support of SUV's ( all of them actually!) and even further impressed that you all are making use of them, even if it is a family transportator. Maybe I have the bad luck of seeing the "ugly" side of this. Like it or not, people in my area do own these things for status. ( before you blow your lid....and that is fine with me!) I would, however, like to hear from one. Not to discorage them, but to understand it more. So no more replies on how wrong I am please. How can I be wrong when I do not have a solid stance on the subject?
  • Having never owned either (but did own a 97' F150, have driven both, and have read all of Edmunds 600+ responses), it seems that there are some basic differences that will appeal to different folks (based on the messages I have read). I'm interested in any "real-life" experiences that are not consistent with:

    * The Excursion drives more like a truck than the 2000 Suburban; some folks like the Suburbans mushy soft car-like ride, others like the stiff truck-like Excursion's ride. If the ride characteristic is important, it will probably drive the decision.

    * Roughly speaking, they have similar engines and performance. That is, if you compare apples to apples. Of course a 1500 Sub can outrun an Excursion. How about a 2500 Sub with the large diesel, full towing package and all the goodies that make it comparable? Probably a close call with the edge to the slightly lighter Sub. Neither will significantly out tow the other.

    * Cost: Equally equipped, they are not much different in cost. However, I have seen lower numbers for the Suburbans in terms of entry level models.

    * Looks: this is mostly opinion, but I have heard a lot of Suburban folks saying they are tired of the look and that the Excursion offers a new rugged look for them. Yes, I have seen an occasional negative on Excursion looks, but basically, most people like the Excursion's looks.

    * Interior Space: Edge goes to Excursion, especially behind 3rd row. The corollary is that it requires more external volume and is therefore a little harder to park (just a little).

    * Mileage: Equally equipped, there should not be a lot of difference. If this is a real factor, the low-end Suburbans with small motors should give best results.

    * Safety: I really haven't seen any proof that one is better than the other; mostly a lot of small car owners complaining that they'll get creamed by a large SUV driver. One thing that was mentioned in one report is braking distance (167 ft for 60-0 for the Excursion, 140ft for a 1500 Suburban). I guess the question is, would a fully loaded Suburban 2500 require about 167ft also? Probably. Is blocker beam really going to make a difference in a 40mph head on with a car? Theoretically, if the large SUV does not end up on top, you could imagine that getting crushed to death is less likely. Now you have to deal with a 40-0 stop almost instantly; it's gonna hurt.

    At the end, if you compare the 2 vehicles on an equal basis, there is not much besides (1) ride stiffness, (2) space behind 3rd row, (3) outside dimensions and (4) looks that separate them. I ordered a Satin Green 4x4 Limited Excursion on Dec 3rd. RNL
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    without even reading your last paragraph.

    Its funny that you have to compare your Excursion to something that is not even availble yet (2500 Suburban), so that nobody can honestly dispute your biased opinion.

    I can see why you didn't want to compare it to the 1500, since the 1500 beats it in every category except size (and thats a good thing!). Its got more 'REAL LIFE' towing power, better braking, better handling, and much better gas mileage (16 vs 12) and I'm being conservative on that one.
  • I have a 2000 Sub and the mileage stinks at 13.5 mpg. My 96 Sub 3/4 ton with 454 got 12 and had a whole lot more power? Joelis, GM's new v-8's are gas hogs without the torque. I know, I've got one.
  • I don't buy the claim of better REAL LIFE towing; 1st of all, there isn't a whole lot of data anywhere to support your claim, and 2nd, from an engineering perspective, the Excursion has "make me tow" written all over it. From what most of the people here and elsewhere say, the weight of the towing vehicle is critical to a safe REAL LIFE tow, so how can a 5000-5500lb Sub hold up to an 8000+ lb Ex? That extra weight (while it may act to reduce the total, hence "only" a 10,000 lb rating), acts, according to the majority of towers, to stabilize the object being towed. Less sway, better control during manuevers and braking. Think about it, the 5500-lb Sub is wrestling with twice its weight, while the Ex is a lot closer to 1 or 1.25:1. That's got to show up in a drivers ability to control the mass under a variety of conditions.

    Yes, you are right, I did not compare to the 1500 Sub. And rightly so. In fact, not even the 2500 is really a fair comparison. Both Subs are light duty rated trucks. Suburban really doesn't make a model that matches up to the Excursion. And by the way, they do make a 2500; go to GMC's web site, you'll see em there....1500 4x2, 1500 4x4, 2500 4x2 and 2500 4x4 (they call it the Yukon XL now, GMC will not sell a Sub in 2000). I don't see the diesel option there, but I think you can get that too. You'll also notice that the standard towing is 8100 lbs, not 10,000 like the Ex. They can pump the Sub up by modifying it and squeeze out 10,100. I would guess (I really don't know) that similar mods to the Ex could push its limit up also.

    I know you still believe the Sub is a better vehicle, and you probably also know I like the Ex better. I want a solid, rugged looking, huge vehicle that still has its truck roots intact; that's the Ex.
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    Either your engine is not broken in yet to see better numbers than 13.5, or the Suburban is that much heavier than an extended cab Z71 Silverado?

    I'm getting 16 average in my 99 Silverado. I've got a 2000 Suburban on order right now. If I knew that it would only get 13 I would not have ordered it.

    Do you see it getting any better or not? Thanks
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    Regarding Towing - I am going by what was reported in both MotorTrend and Car&Driver a few months ago where they compared the two vehicles. They loaded up a trailer with the same weight and ran side by side comparisons. The Suburban pulled away from the Ford in each test. This was also on the C&D tv show a few months ago.

    Obviously I have not tried it for myself. I have test driven an Excursion, but it felt too much like a SuperDuty F250 ride to me. I actually do not mind the looks of it, I just don't want to spend $40k to get bounced around in a truck. I am looking for comfort first.

    What is the gas milage like on it? I would guess in reality about 11
  • The gas mileage seems to cover a large range depending on driving habits. Like I said before, I have read all of the posts here and at Ford-diesel.com, and here's what to expect from an Excursion:

    Stop & Go City Driving: 9-10
    Highway Driving at 55-65: 13-14
    Highway Driving at 70-80: 11-12

    I haven't read much worse than 9-10 without a load, but I have seen some high numbers that I can't explain. One guy in Ford-diesel.com (I think his screen name is wawwi or something like that) claims 15-16 ON AVERAGE with his V-10 (NOT the diesel), and has a link to his web page with all the data. All in all, I think the average guy out there is gonna get about 12-13 (unless you really have a heavy foot).

    As far as the towing goes, I didn't read the article you mention, but it makes sense, i.e., both motors have roughly 300hp (if they tested the gas versions), but the Excursion is heavier to start, so it is at a disadvantage. Be interesting to see how the diesels would match up. Anyway, if speed/acceleration is the key factor, the Burb might be better. I was focusing more on the safety factor. I think a lot of guys here that have towed heavy loads will say that safety is more important than bolting out of the gate.

    Yes, you are right about the ride; the Excursion is stiffer. If ride smoothness is high on your list, then the Burb is probably a better choice (unless you have to tow a 10,000 pound trailer regularly....in that case, the Burb's ride will be noticeably influenced by the load whereas the Ex's won't be as badly affected). Hope that helps,

    RNL
  • was67was67 Posts: 4
    I test drove both and decided on the Ford. While the Suburban was more car-like in its ride quality, the Excursion offered the heavy-duty, truck-like ruggedness I was looking for.

    In addition, I really don't like the looks - inside or out - of the new Suburban. I remember laughing out loud when I first saw the front grille on a late-model Silverado and must say it doesn't look any better on Chevy's full-size SUV. Add to that one of GM's cheesy-looking interiors and the new Suburban has zero appeal to me. (This is a subjective POV, of course.)
  • When ya think of big SUV's, you start with the pickup truck platforms. The big Chevy/GM Silverado's/Sierra's led to the Suburban (much modified), the Ford F150 led to the Expedition and the SD's to the Excursion. What about the Dodge Ram? No model in the US, BUT, I saw one in Mexico! it's here:

    http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/news/n020399.htm

    Reminds me a lot of the Durango. One thing noticably missing: no back doors! Thoughts?
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    I agree with you on the fact the each truck has its use. If you are doing a lot of heavy hauling (ie. 5th wheel or big cabin cruiser) then the Excursion will be the vehicle of choice because you will have more control of the load - who cares about 0 to 60 times in those situations anyway.

    If you are using it as a daily commuter with the 'occasional' towing need, then I prefer the Suburban on the better 'empty' ride and pickup.

    I guess this post is useful after all...
  • Crysler has been working on the big SUV thing latley. For a while they were going to give Jeep the honor, simply because they would be able to make more cash off the Jeep name. However, Jeep is big on maintaining its image of "great off-roader" and we all know how difficult it would be to make these big SUV's an actuall off-roader. They're deseigned as work horses ( very nice ones!), not off-roaders. ( they high center very easily, so Jeep's biggy would have to have a HUGE lift.) After a while, where they were seriously thinking about it, they decided to scrap the idea. So I would imagine that they will go back to Dodge in a while and figure it out. That is unless Jeep decides to do it. Jeep is pretty good about hiding its new deseigns. ( the new cherokee was going to be released next year but the current cherokee is doing so well they are going to keep it for a while. Anyhow, they've managed to hide this thing incredibly well! So who knows.)
  • Read the Chevy post's on the Yukon,Suburban
    and find all the guys in the shop with tranny
    problems at 1,500 miles. And how BAD the dealers are treating them. 250,000 miles on my aerostar
    plus survived a head on collision. Thank you I'll
    stick with Ford.
  • joelisjoelis Posts: 315
    Get your facts straight. There has been no problem with Transmissions. Some are coming off the line with a harmonic vibration which is quickly fixed with a tweak in the rear suspension. No big deal.

    I bought over 30 vehicles from dealers in my lifetime, and have had more problems with service from Ford dealers than from GM. That is the main reason why I prefer GM these days.

    It really doesn't matter who the Manufacturer is, it is all based on if you get a good service dealership or not.

    By the way, one of those vehicles I have owned in the past was a 88 Aerostar, which gave me many problems in the two years I had it.
  • gnussgnuss Posts: 1
    I'm currently a very unhappy owner of a
    '97 suburban 1500. With 50K miles, I have
    been through multiple wheel bearing replacements, broken power steering pump shafts, and alternator.

    The rear end has had two seals fail and the fan blower motor has been replaced twice. When the
    fan control knob broke on the rear control panel I found that I couldn't replace the $2.00 knob, I had to replace the whole $90 switch assembly!

    A poor design, poor product quality, and poor customer service. When it's not in the shop, it does tow nice, however.

    I will never buy another Chevrolet product. Period. I have not looked at the 2000 suburban. While they may have changed a few style elements the fundamental flaws remain.

    I will be test driving the Excursion next week. Thanks to all for providing their input on their comparisons.

    To those that plan to go with the Suburban I have
    one piece of advice: Get the extended warranty
  • There are a lot of pro and cons when comparing
    Suburbans to Excursions I have owned both but there is no comparison if you are looking at a diesel.
    DON'T BUY A SUBURBAN WITH A DIESEL ENGINE.
    Before you consider buying a Suburban with a diesel take a few minutes and do a web search on the tech bulletins on Suburban diesels and be prepared for a lot of them. Not only read them take a look at the corrective actions or lack of them. Most importantly while most describe problems note that instead of correcting problems in model years the tech bulletins have been re-issued over a number of years. As a example look at tech bulletin 77-63-06 about "No Start, Stall" it goes back to 1994 models and is still current today. Also ask your local mechanic about GM diesels odds are given a choice he will rank GM diesels 3rd behind Ford and Cummings. Lastly if that is not enough proof ask your local GM dealer why GM is in negotiations with Izusu to supply diesel engines on upcoming SUV and trucks.
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