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What Are Your Thoughts on the Return of the Taurus/Sable?

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Comments

  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I personally don't like the Sable name, and wish they'd forget about it. Montego is better now or forever to me, but the Taurus brand shouldn't die, it should be re-invigorated, hopefully that's what they are doing. They really need to advertise the crap out of it though - and the Edge - I guess that's just not for my generation...
  • albookalbook Posts: 1,282
    Which is fine. But just don't go touting how much more ECONOMICAL it is do so (as they typically do).

    Yeah-I heard this guy going off on everyone who drives a car for more than four years because they are too expensive. NObody says this! Everyone knows it's personal prefence. Driving new cars has nothing to do with people getting imports. THey just choose them because they like them. No one is out to get ford. You're over reacting a little bit. And no one says domestics are no good. THey just say "in their oppinion" LExus has better quality than Lincoln-justifying their purchase. It DOES seem though, that a lot of people have been talking about how much better their Freestyle is than other crossovers.
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    Before you put me in a position of justifying purchasing an Avalon over a 500, my point was in the context that giving incentives in the form of cash rebates defeats the image that Ford wants to project for the new Taurus, namely competitive quality to fight buyers' perception about Avalon.

    I don't want to get off topic, but I usually look at what I get for my money and keep in mind that if there is a substantial price difference between two brands there must be a reason for it. To me the bottom line is not related to price difference alone.
  • and keep in mind that if there is a substantial price difference between two brands there must be a reason for it

    You sound like my wife.

    Fortunately, some of us realize that it's just not always true. It really IS possible to pay more for less. :surprise:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    A car is worth what the market will pay for it. In Ford's case, the Taurundred is worth less than the Avalon, because people won't pay Avalon prices for it. It's a business thing.

    The market is simply saying it won't pay the same price for a Taurundred as it would an Avalon, because it doesn't deem it to be worth the price.

    You may differ from the market; many do. For people who would have bought the Ford over the Toyota, the rebate cash is a bonus. To the rest of the world, its a condition of the sale.
  • albookalbook Posts: 1,282
    A car is worth what the market will pay for it. In Ford's case, the Taurundred is worth less than the Avalon, because people won't pay Avalon prices for it. It's a business thing.
    Exactly my point. Ford doesn't give anyone any reason to. otherwise, Ford wouln't be introuble would they? SOrry to continually come back to this, but no one wants to pay 35g for a Taurus X (freestyle).
    For people who would have bought the Ford over the Toyota, the rebate cash is a bonus. To the rest of the world, its a condition of the sale.
    NOt necessarily true. Many have traded in Bimmer %'s for Acura TL's just to save money. But money doesn't always make up for inconvinience.
  • The market is simply saying it won't pay the same price for a Taurundred as it would an Avalon, because it doesn't deem it to be worth the price.

    Markets are notoriously efficient, and notoriously wrong. That's why there's marketing folks out there, don't ya know. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    So, a Five Hundred/Taurus, priced and equipped equally to an Avalon, is worth the same? Would Ford not be charging the same rate as Avalon if they could make a profit that way?
  • So, a Five Hundred/Taurus, priced and equipped equally to an Avalon, is worth the same?

    To me? The Five Hundred is a MUCH better value.

    It's just like buying stocks . . you win (make money) by buying what everybody else thinks is worth less than its true value.

    But if EVERYBODY knew this, then the car (or stock) would be priced higher, now wouldn't it?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Hard to compare a car to stock, as it will not increase in value. If everybody felt the Five Hundred was a superior car overall, it would be selling at a higher price than the Avalon.

    I will grant you this, the Five Haurus probably loses out in large part due to brand identity and known resale value. With a Toyota badge, the Tundred would probably sell at a higher price (sad but probably true). It would also likely hold its value better (also sad, but true).

    Sorry, I'm still playing with names for this car, its kind of entertaining to me. You make good points, but I still stand by the "if it was valued better than the Avalon, it would sell at a higher price than the Avalon" statement. It may be wrong to some, but its my honest opinion, something each poster is entitled to. Good night all!

    TheGrad
  • gteegtee Posts: 179
    I think that there is also some social stigma associated with driving a Ford car. Its like you are poor and cannot afford a better car. Ford trucks don't seem to suffer from the same stigma, but Ford cars do. It seems to me that right now Hyundai and Kia have better image then Ford. People by cars not only for their utility/transportation value, but also for the statement it makes about them.

    What statement does driving Ford Taurus make?
    1. Traveling salesman in a company car.
    2. Lost tourist driving a rental car.

    What statement does driving Ford Focus make?
    1. Poor student who could not afford a Civic.

    What statement does driving Ford Crown Vic make?
    1. Under cover cop / homicide detective.

    What statement does driving Lincoln Town Car make?
    1. On your way to airport to pick up your next customer.

    What statement does driving a Mercury Grand Marquis make?
    1. On your way to Florida for winter.

    What statement does driving a Ford 500 make?
    1. Love those rebates.

    You see what I mean about a bad image Ford cars have right now. That image translates into lower demand for cars. Lower demand for cars translates into lower selling prices because there is an imbalance between supply of cars and demand for cars.

    I for one don't care how good Ford 500 is or how much it costs or if they change the name to Taurus. The car just does not have the same image as Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. It might even be a better car then Honda or Toyota. I don't know because I never even bothered to take a test drive. What I am pretty sure about is that changing a name from 500 to Taurus will change anything.
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    "I for one don't care how good Ford 500 is or how much it costs or if they change the name to Taurus. The car just does not have the same image as Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. It might even be a better car then Honda or Toyota. I don't know because I never even bothered to take a test drive. What I am pretty sure about is that changing a name from 500 to Taurus will change anything."

    The rebadged Taurus supposedly will be competing with the Avalon and 300 not with the Accord/Camry. A very tall order considering buyers' perception of quality and reliability from Toyota. But if the Taurus does not work for Ford the second time around, Ford might go the way of Chrysler or worse. Even in the truck department Ford faces stiff competition which may knock off the F150. What's left?
  • Image is great for people interested in it. Today, however due to the very close and closing quality gap between Ford and Toyota, image is just that, image. An informed consumer can decide whether or not its worth paying an extra 5 or so thousand for a badge.

    The Ford, especially in taurus form, will solve the only real issue with the car, and that is the power. Once that is done what else is there? For practical purposes, this really is a good if not better car. Both the 500/Taurus and Avalon are excellent cars, and IMO the only two in the segment, the rest are pretenders.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    I think that someone shopping for an Avalon or 08 Taurus could also conceivably look at the Azera and the Lucerne. And the Sable may be a dumb name and the same car, but it has a better looking front and rear end than the Taurus, and a more sparkly interior.
  • But here's the real difference. I have a 2006 Five Hundred Limited with about 17K miles. It's worth about $16K in trade. The same dealer, when I asked, indicated that were it a 2006 Avalon XL (about the same stick price as my Five Hundred was originally), it would be worth about $22.5K. Why anyone would consider a Taurus / Five Hundred going forward is beyond me -- I will certainly NEVER make the same error.
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    That's only applicable if you're trading in your cars often. If you keep your car for 7-8 years, or just lease, resale value doesn't make a difference.

    The Avalon still have some better stuff than 500/Taurus. The interior design is about 10 times as nice, and so is the steering wheel and gauges. Reclining rear seats; push button remote start; rain-sensing wipers, and many more small features are available on the Avalon. This makes the Avalon feel like a Lexus.
  • albookalbook Posts: 1,282
    To me? The Five Hundred is a MUCH better value.
    Value isn't as simple as that. An Acura MDX might cost the same as an Expllorer. That desn't mean that they are eqaull in quality. But enough of that endless circle of oppinion. Let's talk about why you would buy this car. Ford sells it on interior space and comfort ()It's only benefits for the time being) But room in competitors like the 300/ Charger and Avalom, and Lucerne are just as as good. So is trunk space- not as good, but close. Luxury ain't great in upscale brother -Montego (believe me, I know! And it looks boring and awkward. Why get something that you don't like to look at- And i hate that ugly bubble top!-whn you can have good looking like the 300? I'd say why not spend the same amount on an Avalon, get a nicer beter lookking car than the 500 (and it's dumb that they spell it!) and actually get some money back when you trade the car in?!
  • gteegtee Posts: 179
    I think that some people on this discussion board under appreciate the power of Brand Image. The only difference between a Timex watch and a Rolex watch is image. I am sure that they both keep very accurate time, but one costs 100 times more then the other. Why? Because of Image. Right now Ford cars have a "Poor Man's car" Image. Why buy a Timex (Ford 500) when for just 20% more price, you can get a Rolex (Toyota Avalon).

    As far as Ford 500 competing with Avalon or Lucerne or 300, I just don't see how that is possible. The 500 is in entirely lower price class then these cars. I can see comparing 500 with Chevy Impala. In fact I always thought that 500 was Ford's answer to Impala.

    Just take a look at resale prices. I compared Edmund's trade in values for 500, Impala, Toyota Camry and Avalon and Honda Accord for 2005 model year.

    2005 Ford 500 Limited = $13999 trade in
    2005 Chevy Impala SS = $13555 trade in
    2005 Toyota Avalon XLS = $17371 trade in
    2005 Toyota Camry XLE = $16400 trade in
    2005 Honda Accord EXV6 = $18029 trade in

    So just based on prices of 1/2 year old models, I would say that Ford 500 competes with Impala, its definitely not in the same price class as Camry/Accord/Avalon on the used car lot. I guess its that image thing again which contributes to low resale values.
  • Hard to compare a car to stock, as it will not increase in value

    But things don't have to increase in value to "make money".

    I feel I'm paying LESS for a car of equal (actually, better) value to me. That saves me money. Just as if I'd made it in the stock market.
  • People by cars not only for their utility/transportation value, but also for the statement it makes about them.

    Not smart people. ;)
  • Image is great for people interested in it. Today, however due to the very close and closing quality gap between Ford and Toyota, image is just that, image. An informed consumer can decide whether or not its worth paying an extra 5 or so thousand for a badge.

    VERY true.

    And then, of course, there are those who'll pay even MORE for a Lexus, to basically get some gold lettering for the car name on the back of the vehicle. :P
  • Why get something that you don't like to look at- And i hate that ugly bubble top!-whn you can have good looking like the 300? I'd say why not spend the same amount on an Avalon, get a nicer beter lookking car than the 500 (and it's dumb that they spell it!) and actually get some money back when you trade the car in?!

    I actually LIKE the 500's looks. And the 300? I would've only got it for the Hemi . . but the trunk is a lot smaller, and it's a real PITA to look out of. Visibility is very poor.

    As far as trade-ins, I just don't do that. I typically keep my car 8 - 10 years. So, the trade-in difference is negligible. Basically, any extra trade-in value of an Avalon after that amount of time will be less than or equal to the extra amount I would've had to pay for the car up front. So why tie up all that extra capital when I don't need to?
  • Why buy a Timex (Ford 500) when for just 20% more price, you can get a Rolex (Toyota Avalon).

    Bad analogy, since (by our own numbers), the Rolex is 100x pricier, not 20% pricier.

    And in either case, why pay more for the same thing? Or even pay more for LESS?
  • Just take a look at resale prices. I compared Edmund's trade in values for 500, Impala, Toyota Camry and Avalon and Honda Accord for 2005 model year.

    2005 Ford 500 Limited = $13999 trade in
    2005 Chevy Impala SS = $13555 trade in
    2005 Toyota Avalon XLS = $17371 trade in
    2005 Toyota Camry XLE = $16400 trade in


    Only valid for those who trade every 2 to 3 years.

    Also, you need to look at how much each vehicle COST (real cost, not MSRP).

    The Avalon's trade-in value is 2372 more. How much more would it have cost to buy that Avalon compared to the 500 in 2005? I submit that it would've cost at LEAST that much more.

    In that case, the 500 is actually the BETTER value when you look at costs associated with trade-ins. You just made a common mistake by those who *think* they know what they're doing when they make this comparison.
  • gteegtee Posts: 179
    Only valid for those who trade every 2 to 3 years.

    On average most people only keep their cars for 3 years. Most cars are leased for 3 years. If all you care about is minimizing your cost over 6-8 years of car ownership then the best way to go is to buy a 1-2 year old American used car. But if we insist on talking about new cars, then the total cost of ownership is what matters.

    IntelliChoice list the cost of 5 years of ownership of 2007 Ford 500 limited as $38,126 .

    Again from IntelliChoice the cost for 5 years of ownership of a 2007 Toyota Avalon XLS is: $37,711

    I guess that I don't see where all of the great value of Ford 500 is? For less money one can drive a much better car. Maybe, just maybe, not all of the people who buy Toyota and Honda are stupid. Maybe, just maybe, they do the research and find out that its actually cheaper to drive a superior product. That is what makes it a superior product in the first place. And yes, image does matter.

    Now for my mother image means nothing. She wanted a very safe and reliable and cheap car because she is retired. I purchased a 1 year old Ford Crown Vic for her. Its a perfect car for her. It was cheaper then a used Civic. Now that is great value.

    And what about all of these Ford Ads "Bold Moves!!!!!" What does it mean? :confuse: Does putting a 3-bar grill on a slow selling car make it a "Bold Move"? How about selling every Ford Car with a 100k mile warranty. What would a regular car shopper prefer. The same car with a new name or a same car with a 100K bumper to bumper warranty?
  • zxwzxw Posts: 10
    so tell me what is the difference between the 05 Toyota Avalon XLS ( and what does that mean but typical automotive alphabet soup ?) and the 05 Toyota Camry XLE ? Both are built on the sasme chassis, share most of their mechanicals and look quite the same. If this were an American brand we'd be hearing the usual "badge re-engineering" rant ... when Toyota does it, it's innovative ?

    Upon reading many of these posts I see the word "image" in most and it's not so subtle implication that it's not "cool" to drive a domestic brand. Today with the quality gap erased it's basically an uneducated customer who wants to keep buying cars with profits going to another country. Kiss my American [non-permissible content removed].

    ZXW Robb
  • On average most people only keep their cars for 3 years. Most cars are leased for 3 years

    Proof positive that most people don't care about VALUE.
  • And yes, image does matter.

    Not to those who believe in VALUE.
  • Today with the quality gap erased it's basically an uneducated customer who wants to keep buying cars with profits going to another country. Kiss my American [non-permissible content removed].

    With Ford (and especially the Five Hundred / Freestyle), there's still a lot of money going out of this country.

    And with most Toyota/Lexus vehicles these days, a lot of money actually stays in the US.
  • People who are concerned about image will never drive Toyota, period. What exactly do you want to announce to world by driving Toyota? That you are rich, famous and hip?

    Well, I got a news for you - most will think you are plain-vanilla, no-risk-taking, family-comes-first, A-to-B, do-not-care-about-cars, cannot-change-a-tire kind of guy. Driving 500/Taurus projects exactly the same image for less money.

    Avalon will tell me that you are retiree who cannot afford Lexus.
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