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Pontiac G8 vs BMW 3-Series vs Lexus IS 350

24

Comments

  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    Shouldn't be any G8's in dealers until at least August according to several of the auto rags.

    Wonder when you could order one, sight unseen. There's always people out there that do so. I need to drive it before I buy it.

    -Brian
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Oh well I'm not going to loose sleep over it. GM, has been #1 for what, 80 something years ? :P GM, will be #1 for the next 80 and if they aren't their will be hell to pay in Congress, and congress knows this already thus is why you will see change as bills are already being drawn up to level the playing field a bit ;)

    Rocky
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    There is no law that states that GM is entitled to stay No.1. Being No.1 has to be earned through selling cars that people want to buy. Toyota will easily surpass GM this year or early next year unless GM does buy Chrysler (doubt that will happen). Some of your posts are devoid from reality.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,398
    I agree with you fervently regarding GM's dethroning. No. 1? In fact, the evidence shows quite the contrary in terms of market share erosion.

    Does anyone really see this bleeding stopping anytime soon? Is there any real changes that will turn around the slide?

    I know the true answers but what do I really know? Just one thing...the trucks are OK and the C6 is great but the rest I would leave for distance shores. Too many great choices for it to end well for this once great but arrogant company.

    The definition of insanity is expecting change without change.

    Regards,
    OW
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,720
    "...see change as bills are already being drawn up to level the playing field a bit"

    Bills are being drafted to outlaw the UAW??? That will certainly help level the playing field... :blush:

    I appreciate your allegiances to GM, but I really think that the fault lies within GM, not the stars... For YEARS AND YEARS they kept building the same terrible cars. Instead of improving interiors, upgrading engines, better build quality, etc. they just kept putting lipstick on J-car and X-car pigs. Sure, a core group of loyals kept buying the same ol' same ol'. But were they attracting new blood? The shrinking market share Magic 8 ball says, "No."

    Personally, the arrogance of GM ticked me off to no end. Did they have some of the best engineering and design talent in the world? Yes. But I guess the Accountants union was stronger. They just kept building the same terrible cars year after year...

    But, on paper, the future's looking a bit brighter. Mostly from what I've seen of the '08 CTS. Let's hope that history doesn't continue to repeat itself...

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Bills are being drafted to outlaw the UAW?? That will certainly help level the playing field...

    laurasdada, The UAW aren't totally to blame. They do blame themselves for allowing idiot beancounter CEO's like Roger Smith, to let the curve go across the plate while GM, was caught looking. The UAW, promised recently they will play a bigger role on product launches and said they will play a role in signing off on it so bad cars do not make it to market causing a loss in jobs.

    Rick Wagoner, is not the same old traditional CEO we've seen at GM. He knows GM, has the capability to build world class cars like the G8, and 08' CTS. The problem is their is a very unlevel playing field that needs some correction. Yes healthcare, is a major issue nowdays and yes GM, signed the UAW contracts to insure employees of GM get first class healthcare. The difference is GM, is 60-70 years older than Toyota, thus has a large retiree number it has to pay for. These obligations cost billions and instead of knocking GM, for paying these bills we should be proud of them as these folks will not be living off of your nickel when they are old like so many other americans. So I'd rather look at ways to cut healthcare costs in this country instead of griping about it. Toyota, in 15-20 years will face similar problems as more and more employees are elgible for retirement. I think a national healthcare plan is the only solution to get a grip on sky rocketing healthcare costs and fix a broken out of control system.

    The other major issue as has been discussed is unfair trade policy's. Whether your a democrat, republican, independant, most reasonable folks recognize we have a MAJOR trade defecit problem that keeps growing each year. Foreign governments want to dump freely on our market their exports but put up barriers on our exports. China, for example won't let you sell automobiles their without a huge tariff thus company's like GM, have to build their products in China, instead of the ability to export U.S. built automobiles. As rep. Duncan Hunter (R) California
    said U.S. manufactors are at a 74% disadvantage before anything is built. This is not fair IMHO.

    The final major obstacle for domestic manufactors is currency manipulation. The Japanese yen is artficially manipulated by 38%. The Chinese Yaun is 40%. What this means is if Toyota builds a car in Japan, and GM, builds a car in america and all costs being equal their is anywhere between a $2,000 profit advantage on cars selling in teens. approx $3-6K profit advantage $20-35K range. A $12-13K profit advantage on luxury brands $60-70K. We are talking about billions in profits because the yen is artificially manipulated and the Japaense, as recent as last week said they thought the yen was valued to high and wanted to decrease it's value even more. Toyota, still imports 50% of their vehicles. ;)

    These are the REAL ISSUES that are affecting corporations like GM. Sure GM, can't fix it's past but that doesn't mean its future should be punished because of some bad management of the past. Rick Wagoner, is a good guy and has his heart in the right place. I think we should give him a level playing field to compete on and if GM, still fails they have no one else to blame but themselves. I however am very confident this new GM, will not make the mistakes of it's past and plenty of great cars like the G8 and 08' CTS will be launched over the next couple of years. Some of which we've already have spy photo's of and some we've already seen at auto shows like the 09' Camaro, Enclave, Corvette SS, Chevy Impala, Buick Velite, etc, etc, and the 2008 Pontiac G8's Zeta Architecture is the spring board for many new exciting RWD automobiles.

    I just hope more american's will be willing to forgive GM's past and give GM, another try in the future. The 2008' Pontiac G8' is an exciting car for those optomistic about GM's return to greatness to take for a test drive. I grew up in a UAW-GM, family and even I and my family now can say that GM, has finally brought automobiles to the market they are proud to build and can be confident on reccommending one to family and friends. Trust me this was a concern in the past. ;)

    Just my $0.02 laurasdada, it's nice to talk to ya and hopefully we can have more nice discussions like this one in the future.

    Now back to the G8 vs IS350 & BMW 3 series ;)

    Rocky
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    UAW having a say on what model gets built? Are we seriously to believe that they will exercise that right in the interest of building better cars or preserving obsolete job positions? The record of UAW influence in starving Canadian plants that have the best quality records do not speak well for discretion.

    Not sure how nationalizing healthcare can reduce healthcare cost, without essentially letting the sick to die without adquate care. Nationalizing healthcare is not going to suddenly produce a couple million slave healthcare workers that can render service for next to nothing. If the pay is not there, people simply do not enter the healthcare field; if the large number immigrant nurses and doctors and nursing and medical students are banned as a consequence of the nationalization, the supply of heathcare providers will be even more limited. The problem with high healthcare cost is two fold: not enough people are willing to do it, and too much subsidized money chasing what few providers are out there. The manufacturers should never have joined the ranks of subsizers for healthcare. Workers should take care of their own healthcare needs, and as a consequence will use healthcare much more judiciously. Yes, some may argue that other countries have nationl healthcare . . . wonder why almost all the leaders of other countries, when they get really sick, they seek treatment in the US? When the citizenry are wards of the state, they are serfs of the state, as is the case of many countries; only the elite in those countries can hop on a plane and get treatment in the US. Not sure why we want to make this country just like that. BTW, it's not because American doctors are naturally smarter; the most talented doctors all over the world tend to immigrate to the US!

    The bit about China slapping huge import tarrif on cars is simply untrue, at least since 2005, when it joined WTO. For what it's worth, GM was lobbying to keep the old tarrifs in place so its factories there could have an advantage.

    Currency manipulation is another fig leaf. If Yen and Yuan were not pegged to a range vis. Dollar, those currencies would go to near-zero simply because their population have little faith in their own currency. Would you keep your life savings in a fiat currency printed by a non-transparent government? So does that mean democratic nations have a natural disadvantage in trade? Not at all. Think about it, making cars is a tremendously polluting process. Our system of relatively non-interventionist government is what keeps the faith of the world capital market in the US; that's what enables us to enjoy some cars without having to deal with the pollution of carmaking.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,398
    Here's the deal from the consumers vantage point. I would only buy American cars because I believe what you believe. Honestly. But junk is junk and after many experiences with quality issues in my small world with th U.S. brands, I am sick and tired of waiting.

    Put another way, if I got into a Cadillac CTS, and felt what I felt in December '06, I would have purchased the CTS.

    To me, there is no product the U.S. offers that is even close what you can get from Japan, Europe and Korea. Wait until China gets going!

    It's going to be a very bumpy ride for GM. The company could have been in WAY better shape if it opened it's eys long ago in the 80's when Japan began to offer top quality.

    You know the rest 'cause it's history.

    I still have a real bad tast in my mouth.

    Again, take the CTS. Looks bad to me. I can sketch a car on paper that looks much better.

    Bottom line. If the 3 or even the G had a GM badge, the competition would be designing to beat the combination.

    Regards,
    OW
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    As you all know, these conversations are going on in many places over in Auto News. There has been little comparison of the subject vehicles here so far. If we want to compare them, let's get to it, okay? Otherwise, there's not much point in continuing here.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    brightness, I'll reply to your post in the Big 3 and domestic issues forum. ;) Same for you OW ;)

    Rocky
  • fenwahfenwah Posts: 58
    Actually the G8 that you saw with the nice leather interior dash, big wheels, etc., will never make it into production. The production model will be a scaled back version. I'm a bit nervous of what they will do the G8. After seeing the G8 interior at the autoshows, I have a feeling that we will all be disappointed with what the production version will look like.
  • fenwahfenwah Posts: 58
    My tax dollars had better not be spent bailing out GM. If anything, make those union boys work instead of playing cards. Reduce those union boys salaries as they are ridiciously high...big deal...they put a part on a car over and over. Reduce retirement and health benefits to the union boys. GM needs to get their head out of their *** if they ever want to compete with real automakers.

    And this is coming from someone who hopes the G8 is the real deal. Too bad we had to rebadge an Aussie car to do it. But the engineers in the U.S. can't develop a decent car...then so be it.

    I do believe the 08 CTS will be a huge winner though.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Actually the G8 that you saw with the nice leather interior dash, big wheels, etc., will never make it into production. The production model will be a scaled back version.

    What ? The interior is a left-side drive Holden Commodore. Sure the color of leather which was ugly anyways in yellow and 20 inch tires won't make it into production yet but the HSV/GXP version will have 20's. Scaled back I think not !!!! Where are you getting your head filled with this hyperbole at ?

    I'm a bit nervous of what they will do the G8. After seeing the G8 interior at the autoshows, I have a feeling that we will all be disappointed with what the production version will look like.

    Again who is telling you this hyperbole. Got a link of proof ? Sure the interior color won't make it or the 20's but everything else is Holden Commodore production ready. :confuse:

    Go check out the Holden Commodores on YouTube and Holden.com and their you will see a Holden interior which like the GTO's will be the same, only left-hand side for U.S. market

    WOW....... :confuse:

    Rocky
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    Autoblog has a review of the Commodore that tries to relate it to the North American market. Fresh pics of the interior and exterior of the version that is headed here.

    Really, the show car had 19" wheels and some skirting and whatnot. That won't make production, maybe on GXP version. Otherwise, as Rocky said, the G8 we've seen at the shows and on the web should be quite similar.

    -Brian
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Your answer will be posted in the forum "possible salvation for domestic automakers" in automotive news and views as this isn't the place to have this go further off-topic. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Yep !!!! ;)

    Rocky
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    Now, if we could only get some concrete info on pricing and options. :shades:

    -Brian
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I agree Brian. Expect the G8 to start out at around $26-27K for the 3.6 261 hp base V8. The G8 GT V8 will top out at around $33K with a GTP hitting about $36K with a 400-425 hp 6.2 V8. The limited HSV/GTX version probably will hit $40K or so for a 7.0 LS-7 V8 with 502 hp or more. It will not debut before MY 2009' according to the sources I've read. ;)

    Rocky
  • holdenguyholdenguy Posts: 145
    Here you go Rocky,
    BMW 550i vs VE Calais V8 vs Benz E500 comparison.
    Lot of reading but very well written article.

    http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/2358840.aspx
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Yep, it was a very good read. I myself would probaably take the Mercedes, of the three.

    Rocky
  • kc567567kc567567 Posts: 29
    "Pontiac G8 vs BMW 3-Series vs Lexus IS 350"

    I’m sorry but the imaginary G8, will at best, take 3 or 4 years, and need near perfect reliability and road manners to even sniff the BMW for the king of the hill ,,,, not even a debate worthy of the BMW.

    I chose the 350 over the 3 series simply because the Lexus had more character, was faster and I had greater confidence in the local Lexus dealer. The BMW is the leader in this segment though, and its interior is far superior ( and a lot fewer rattles).

    Maybe the Infinity G35, or even the Lincoln Zephyr, may have a chance to join the elite but forget the G8.

    KC
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    If I was going to buy a G8, I'd sure enjoy seeing you in my rear view :P

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,398
    If I were to buy a GM, it would be the Z-06 and then I would never see you in my rear view! ;)

    The G8 is an example of the future of GM. International roots will continue to ensure that GM comes back to life, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    If I were to buy a GM, it would be the Z-06 and then I would never see you in my rear view!

    huh ? why cuz it would only be a flash as you went by me ? :P

    The G8 is an example of the future of GM. International roots will continue to ensure that GM comes back to life, IMO.

    Well the rumor is if this car is pretty popular they are going to build this and other Zeta's here in the U.S. as it would be cheaper than importing them. I'd rather buy em made here at home but them being made in australia, isn't all that bad. At least they aren't made by slave labor in China. ;)

    OW, I can't warm up to the G8's grill. I don't like it. It's not horrible but it's enough to where I wouldn't buy one. The holden's look a lot better. If they brought over the Holden HSV with 500+ hp. I'd probably own one especially in red with magneride MRC. :shades:

    Rocky
  • holdenguyholdenguy Posts: 145
    Ahh, yes, your dream car Rocky.
    Just get a front end sent over mate ;-)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I don't like em' enough to spend that kind of extra money on one mate. That would be $2-3K easy just for the part and shipping. ;)

    Rocky
  • fenwahfenwah Posts: 58
    I don't want the government to control healthcare. Look at what they've done to social security, the national deficit, getting veterans hospital care in a timely manner. The list goes on and on. The government does not need to control healthcare. Once you do that, the quality of physicians in this country goes downhill...and fast.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well it's getting to the point only the rich will have healthcare because the government isn't doing enough to control costs. :(

    As far as the G8, going up against BMW's 3/5 seriesand the Lexus IS, it does a great job. The G8, might lack in a few area's but once you factor in price it makes a very competitive alternative. ;)

    -Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,398
    IMHO, the quality of physicians available to the general public in the US follows the quality of the auto manufacturers. Was great but no more.

    Regards,
    OW

    P.S. The G8 still looks boring to me.

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "IMHO, the quality of physicians available to the general public in the US follows the quality of the auto manufacturers. Was great but no more."

    You are kidding, right? I'll go to Germany or Japan for my cars, but point to anyplace in the world you would rather send your spouse or kids for a medical diagnosis or procedure than Johns Hopkins, Mayo or Cleveland Clinics, or University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, just to name a few.

    And Rocky, throw the ambulance chasing trial lawyers into a deep tar pit and you will make a lot of headway on controlling costs. The vascular surgeon that saved my mother's life pays $175,000 per year in malpractice insurance premiums - and he's never had a single case brought against him.

    Healthcare in this country is far from perfect, for sure. But in a country that can't produce a car attractive enough for my tastes and preferences in the past 30 years, I'm pretty thankful for those physicians who slug through 10+ years of post graduate school and internships and take real pride in their profession. Try finding that intestinal fortitude on the floor of a GM factory.
This discussion has been closed.