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Pontiac G8 vs BMW 3-Series vs Lexus IS 350

124

Comments

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,250
    You are kidding, right?

    No, I mentioned the general public. Not everyone can go to the top of the class medical establishments in this country. The problem is not the best in the country but the availability of the best to all. For every one top establishment and staff there are many that fall way short.

    I know there is no panacea, but it's not as easy for everyone to get the best care every time. There are many less-than-average service providers.

    Just like the auto manufacturers, there are good but mostly disappointing results in the past 30 years. Take Pontiac as a Division. Sad story, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "The problem is not the best in the country but the availability of the best to all."

    Perhaps, but it's a lot better here than most of the rest of the world. Read an article some time ago about Ben Carson, the renowned neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins. A significant percentage of his patients are of limited means, many w/o health insurance. When we took my daughter to Children's Hospital a few years ago when she broke her elbow, the waiting room was full of what obviously were people who use the emergency room as their convenient (and free) doctor's office. As I'm sure you aware, a community hospital is not allowed to turn anyone away for lack of financial ability to pay. Want to get a unique perspective on the need for immigration reform, talk with an emergency room physician. Of course it's the working class, bill paying general public that gets stiffed in the process. The average American family of 4 is actually paying for about 6.

    I have been known to blast the auto industry as one of the worst examples of American business. For no good reason. It's one thing for the Chinese to steal textile jobs with 20 cent an hour wages. But GM and Ford have lost to everyone. Japan on quality and reliability, Korea on affordability, Germany on engineering and performance. The fact that Porsche makes some of the best engieered cars in the world, then ships 60%+ of them over to the United States because our market can afford them but our industry can't produce them, is just as sad as your Pontiac story.

    GE, by the way, makes the best locomotives in the world in my hometown of Erie, PA. Shipping hundreds to China at a cool $3 million a pop. With union labor no less. It hasn't been easy for them to remain competitive over the years, but they've succeeded.
  • Karen@EdmundsKaren@Edmunds Posts: 5,024
    I don't see anything in the title of this discussion asking for comments on immigration, health care, and jobs going overseas. Please keep your comments pertinent to the comparison of these vehicles.

    Thanks for your cooperation.

    Karen-Edmunds Community Manager

  • kivikivi Posts: 12
    yuk ! there is nothing that would make me consider the Pontiac G8 over the 3 series car. It is precisely because of the product that I that it makes me shudder to consider the two in the same breath. My wife has had several 3 series cars over the years, and mixed into that time period we have had 3 different GM products. The contrasts between them are night and day. They simply do not belong to the same category. When BMW announced the next M3 (the V8), it became the first car in many years to capture my interest, and I will save my pennies for another year and continue to drive my beater in the mean time (wife gets the nice cars). The 3 series cars are amazing cars to drive, and have very very few comparable peers. The G8 does not belong in the same group as any of the 3 series cars. Just because the G8 has a V8, does not make it a contender.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,250
    Agree with you,kivi. The best thing about the G8 is the car is not even available yet and we know the drill. Boring as usual. Get the Camaro out already!

    The bottom line to this discussion is HAHAHAHAHA! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,282
    being the saviour of GM?

    I don't see any remarkable news on the G8 yet?

    What gives? :lemon:
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Try the FV discussion. This one's a comparo between three vehicles. ;)
  • sknabtsknabt Posts: 14
    In the late '90s I got do drive a buddy's 7-series Bimmer. He claimed he paid over $70,000 for it. I was salivating when I started it up. Probably the biggest automotive disappointment in my life. A horrid drive. The suspension was punishing and the steering required far too much effort at moderate speeds. The hard seats quickly wore out my back and backside. It was a stunningly gorgeous car to eye from the outside but, that aside, a waste. I also got to drive a couple years ago a 3-series. Better ride but not particularly comfortable seats. All this coming from a guy driving a Honda S2000, hardly a car devoted to creature comforts.

    I've never owned anything but Japanese. The Pontiac G8 is the first American car I've seriously considered owning in 30 years. It's top on my list when I replace my beater in 2009.

    Multiple reviews of the Holden/Vauxhall have compared in favorably to Mercedes and Bimmers. Not that it really matters. Because all the Mercedes/Bimmer owners I've known are status buyers. Nobody's going to suggest there's any prestige to be had owning a Pontiac.

    Had I unlimited funds, I'd keep an open mind and give BMW another shot. They've bloated up a bit so their sense of style has deteriorated quite a bit but they're still attractive cars. There's no doubt their interior is going to be far superior in material choices than a G8. But some cost-cutting on Pontiac's part isn't creating any major gaffs from what I've seen and read.

    But we all have budgets we must live within and to find a Bimmer which competes on paper with the G8 in size and power you have to climb up their product line to the $58,500 550i. The entry-level (or maybe not with a 1-series brewing) 3-series isn't in the picture except in price as, per BMWs habit, the price of 'status' will suck most people's wallets dry. The G8 GT will base sticker thousands less than the cheapest 3-series.

    And the costs don't end there. The costs of ownership greatly favor the G8. Bimmers suck premium gas, are notoriously expensive to maintain once they're off warranty, and can't boast reliability to match their fat premium pricing.

    Bimmers are for leasers. I tend to own a car for 10 years so I need something I can maintain. GM's quality is hit or miss so I'll give Consumer Reports a hard look before I take the dive.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,016
    Bimmers suck premium gas

    First off, a bit of research would show that most BMW cars average 22-27 mpg under real world driving conditions. I doubt that a midsize V8 Pontiac will do significantly better. And as for premium gas, just do the math. Let's assume that you drive 15K per year and average 25 mpg- that comes out to 600 gallons per year. If you pay 20 cents more for premium that means you'll pay the princely sum of $120 extra per year. That's 10 bucks a month, or 33 cents per day. Wow.

    are notoriously expensive to maintain once they're off warranty, and can't boast reliability to match their fat premium pricing.

    Really? The maintenance and repair costs for my 10 year old 3 Series have averaged less than $500 per year over the life of the car. That figure includes ALL maintenance and repair expenses as well as three sets of 16" Z-rated rubber. I've replaced one set of pads/rotors, the serpentine belts and idlers, the timing chain tensioner(DIY $55 and 10 minutes), a brake light switch and a thermostat. That's it. And did I mention that it also sees several track days per year?

    I tend to own a car for 10 years so I need something I can maintain.

    Me too; I took delivery of my 3 Series twelve years ago this week. It might not be true in your case, but I've found that many people who discuss BMW repair costs are usually relying on second, third, or fourth-hand information- "My cousin's dentist had a patient who knew a friend that talked to some guy at a party, and the guy told him that he overheard somebody at Walmart say that they read somewhere on the internet that it cost $1500 to change the oil in a BMW." Sure, some people DO pay ridiculous amounts to service their Bimmers, but in most cases it's due to the fact that they made a very uninformed choice when seeking quality service facility.
    As for the G8, I hope it turns out to be a nice quick, and inexpensive car- if it is, I'll certainly consider one for my next commuter sled. I almost bought a GTO, but I couldn't stomach the "Mutated Cavalier on Steroids" exterior styling.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,250
    RB, I considered the GTO but the exterior did the same to me. Now that I see them once in a blue moon on the road, I know I did not make a mistake.

    Again, I do not see anything GM makes that says "i just got to get that".

    Hopefully the Camaro will change that impression. The 'vette is still the only thing worthwhile in their stable of cars.

    Regards,
    OW
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,016
    Again, I do not see anything GM makes that says "i just got to get that".

    I built a Q-Ship Monte Carlo back in the late '70s. Back then, GM was still king of the hill- in the US at least. I've bought a couple of domestics since- both used: a 1984 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe(work beater) and the 1999 Wrangler I still own. I was going to buy a Shelby GT instead of the Mazdaspeed but I couldn't find a dealer who hadn't slapped a $15K ADM sticker on the side window. I suspect we'll see the same situation with the new Camaro- particularly with respect to the SS/Z28 models.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,250
    I was going to buy a Shelby GT instead of the Mazdaspeed but I couldn't find a dealer who hadn't slapped a $15K ADM sticker on the side window. I suspect we'll see the same situation with the new Camaro- particularly with respect to the SS/Z28 models.

    It is why GM will flounder. Suck the life out of the customer! It will probably be similar to the G8. Initial sales will be high due to the low supply high demand. Then, the lack of inventory and long import times will drive customers away. Finally, lack of interest will initiate incentives to get customers back...instead of being fair up front. Sickening!

    It will happen with the CTS and the Lambda triplets. Even the salesman are dumbfounded at the apparent lack of logical execution even when a decent product is introduced!

    Regards,
    OW
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,016
    Initial sales will be high due to the low supply high demand. Then, the lack of inventory and long import times will drive customers away. Finally, lack of interest will initiate incentives to get customers back

    That's exactly what happened with the PT Cruiser and the latest version of the Thundebird. Initial demand was very high, but there was not a lot of cars to move. When supply caught up with demand so many were cranked out that they sat on lots- even with factory incentives out the wazoo. It seems that only MINI has been successful at maintaining a fine balance between supply and demand.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Probably the biggest automotive disappointment in my life. A horrid drive. The suspension was punishing and the steering required far too much effort at moderate speeds. The hard seats quickly wore out my back and backside.

    Exactly the difference between BMW and Caddy. You get blueguydotcom into a 7 series and he would say it's too floaty. :confuse
  • I have owned a 2004 X3 and now a 2006 325i. They both handle great. They are very expensive for what you get. Not very reliable, A/C problems, radio replacement, interior trim worn in a short period. Paint coming off center console and driver's door grip. Weather stripping on both cars on both fron doors had to be replaced a number of times.
    Not much bang for the buck. We are brainwashed with these status vehicles and except all their short comings. :confuse:
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,250
    Going in, that's what I anticipated could be the problem so I leased it. The answer I received was a new wiring harness to fix a air bag sensor problem but since then perfect.

    Regards,
    OW
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,016
    We are brainwashed with these status vehicles and except(sic) all their short comings.

    My experience with owning/servicing/competing in BMWs goes back to 1983, and for me at least, it's not about status. Rather, it's about an involving driving experience and an excellent balance of performance and comfort. My wife currently drives a 57,000 mile 2004 X3, which we purchased as a CPO. The console was replaced at purchase to correct the finish chipping, and an SRS sensor has been replaced. Other that that the car has been perfect. Ditto for my 1995 3 Series, which I purchased new. At 112,000 miles, non-scheduled repairs have consisted of a couple of idler pulleys, a thermostat and a brake light switch. And yes, I do own non-BMWs as well; my garage also contains a Mazdaspeed3, a Jeep TJ Wrangler, and a Triumph Speed Triple.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    A rather obvious question is why did you decide to get a second BMW? I hope you aren't that brainwashed by status. Personally, I don't think BMW has any status advantage over Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and some of the others. As roadburner says, the driving dynamics are what sets them apart. But if I had a negative experience like you, I certainly wouldn't come back looking for a second spanking.
  • jrynnjrynn Posts: 162
    I have owned a 2004 X3 and now a 2006 325i. They both handle great. They are very expensive for what you get. Not very reliable, A/C problems, radio replacement, interior trim worn in a short period. Paint coming off center console and driver's door grip. Weather stripping on both cars on both fron doors had to be replaced a number of times.
    Not much bang for the buck. We are brainwashed with these status vehicles and except all their short comings


    I own a 2006 BMW X3. It's the most trouble-free vehicle I've ever had. Nothing but routine (which, with BMW, is included in the purchase price) service visits in the 2 years, 1 month I've had it. (Knock on wood.)

    Before my children were born, I owned a 2004 Acura TSX. Even it was in the shop for things like broken seatbelt retractors and other non-routine items.

    But that's all beside the point. I'm posting on the 3 series board because the service loaners I've gotten from BMW have been 3 series and because while I was visiting relatives over Christmas I had a chance to put about 100 miles on a relative's Lexus IS350.

    If I were shopping now for a sports sedan, I'd take the BMW in a heartbeat. Pure personal preference for a car that's "fun to drive."

    But if you can't feel a difference in 20 or 30 miles of test driving -- or if the difference doesn't matter to you -- then by all means, go with a less expensive option.
  • Relative sells them. Tried to keep peace in the family. No more BMWs
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