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Tires, tires, tires

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,985
    If those are summer tires, then 25K is about the average wear, run-flat or not....

    Agree with everything else he has to say about run-flats, though..

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  • Anyone got any advice for me? Inherited a 2002 Honda Civic EX that needs new tires. Tire size 185-65-15. What tires do people recommend? The Michelin Defender/Energy Saver duo seem crazy expensive to me at around $550+ installed at Costco or Discount Tire. Do the Energy Savers work well on non-hybrid cars, or is the LRR wasted? I'm wondering if I can justify spending that much money on tires when I can get General Altimax RT, Pirelli P4 Four Seasons or Kumho KR21 for <$430 installed.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,985
    edited February 2013
    Way too much money to spend on a 10-yr-old car in that size...

    I just put Yokohamas on an Acura Legend, and spent $100 less than that, for a bigger size... ..

    Yokohama Avid Envigor...

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  • The Envigor sounds like a good tire, but I've read a lot of reviews that say they get loud after like 20k miles.

    Yeah, the Michelin was actually like $560 installed at Costco. I'm pricing out some Coopers (GFE, Lifeliner) etc. I think $425 for Pirelli P4 is a good price. I don't think it'd be worth getting the Discount Tire extended warranty for irreparable damage to the tires for another like $50, right?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,985
    I never buy extra insurance... but, that's just me..

    I've already sold the Acura, so I'm not going to find out about the noise.. Just thought it was a pretty good tire for the money...

    I like name brand tires, but those Michelins seem a little too pricy... If you aren't feeling the Yokohamas, check out Continental ContiProContact or Kumho
    Ecsta LX Platinum. I generally like Pirellis, but no experience with the P4...

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  • Yeah, Yokohamas seem pretty good for the $ for sure.

    I mean, I don't mind shelling out $ for quality tires as I plan on driving this car for quite some time. $560 just seems really steep for a 10+ year old car with 15" tires....I guess tire prices have gone up, because I was able to get a set of Michelins a year ago for $430 on my mom's Corolla at Costco...in a larger tire size...
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 4,088
    edited February 2013
    I've been pleased with the P4 Four Seasons on my Altima. They are prone to irregular edge wear (which will cause noise if left unchecked) and need to be cross-rotated to try to even that out.

    I was extremely impressed with the Kumho Ecsta 4X tires I had on the BMW (best rain tire I've ever had), and will probably look at a set of Kumhos the next time I need tires.
  • I don't think those Kumho come in my tire size unfortunately, as I've read great reviews.

    Also, I forgot to mention the Civic only has 53k miles on it. So, it'll be running for quite some time and I plan on driving it for years. I just don't know if Michelin is necessarily worth $120+ more than the Pirelli P4.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,985
    That model Kumho is what we have on my son's '87 E30.... 205/55-15 on 15 X 7 wheels....

    Only about 3K miles on them so far, but I got into a nice little 4-wheel drift with them the other day... ;)

    We bought them, because the place we bought his new wheels had a special on them.... The whole set came mounted and balanced, and we just bolted them on... Turns out, we really like the tires, so it all worked out...

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,985
    I like spirited driving... even in a Civic.. Those Michelins might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but you could still dislike the driving characteristics..

    I'm no fan of LRR tires... less friction = less grip, in my mind... An '02 Civic is already a gas mileage champ.. the tires aren't going to help that much..

    Read the tests and reviews on TireRack and make sure you are getting the kind of tire you want...

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  • That's true. I averaged about 33-34+ in mostly highway driving thus far. My mom's 2010 Corolla gets about 28-29 average, 32 highway. And the Civic is getting that kind of mileage with Michelin Pilot Exaltos on it, the exact opposite of LRR tires. The tires need replacing as one pair is 6 years old and the other is 8 years old and they're not holding air well...

    I'm mostly looking for solid wear (50k real world tread life, I don't expect to really get 80k miles out of them), decent wet traction (ie they aren't spinning when accelerating from a stop, even when you go slow!), soaks up bumps around town/highway well and if it can improve my MPG even better...
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 4,088
    If you continue to put few miles on the Civic, tread wear may not be as much of a concern (many tire and vehicle manufacturers recommend checking or replacing tires after 6-10 years due to age deterioration). Just something to think about.

    Kumho has some other tires that rate well on Tire Rack. I would consider any of them, as well. Also, you might compare the price with shipping at Tire Rack to Discount Tire Direct's price. Tire Rack has a better review system, but I've bought my last couple of sets from Discount Tire because they had lower pricing.
  • I was considering the Kumho KR21, but for a few dollars more the Pirelli P4 get better reviews overall. Right now I think it's down to the Pirelli P4 @ $421 installed or the Michelin Energy Saver A/S $560. I know the Michelin has higher initial price, but I'm wondering if the superior gas mileage might recoup the difference over the life of the tire...?

    I'm trying to price out the Cooper GFE tire at some local shops as well.

    There's the Continental Procontact w Ecoplus that Discount Tire will install right in the middle price-wise at $490, but they're not sure if they'll be able to get order them. I'd probably spring for this tire if DT can get them. Better wet traction than the Energy Savers and better gas mileage than the Pirelli with similar real world tread life is a winner in my book.

    The Yokohama Avid Envigor mentioned a little earlier sounds like a solid tire, but I've read several reviews of the tire lasting only 30k miles. For a 60k mile tire I'd hope to at least get 45-50k out of them. I don't know if it's the tire or the driving style making them wear like that.
  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 793
    Thanks for removing the spam.
  • markus5markus5 Posts: 102
    When the installer Mounted 4 new Firestone Destination tires on an AWD Ford Escape a few months ago, they were mounted with the RWL on the inside of the rim. The installer did not ask me which way I preferred. I told them had I been asked up front, I would request the RWL out. They were very nice about this and we decided to make the correction at the first free tire rotation (5000 miles.)
    Question: should this have an effect on positioning the tires in the rotation ?
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 4,088
    "Question: should this have an effect on positioning the tires in the rotation?"

    No, they should be able to move them from one side of the car to the other without a problem. In fact, if they're Firestone Destination ATs, they might even flip the tire inside out on the same wheel, as those tires are nondirectional and symmetrical.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,534
    Just make sure they rebalance them.
  • markus5markus5 Posts: 102
    Assuming the Tires are non- directional and symmetrical, wouldn't it be better for the tires to roll in the same direction, regardless of the few ( 5,000 ) miles of initial break in ? That would mean flipping them on the rim and putting it on the opposite side of the car. Correct ?
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 4,088
    edited June 2013
    Some form of cross-rotation is often recommended for non-directional tires. On my Nissan, rotating the tires this way helped to alleviate some uneven edge wear on the tires, which would have eventually made them noisy if left unchecked.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,534
    Yep, for non-directional tires you rotate them side to side, resulting in them rolling in the opposite direction. No harm done.
  • pats12pats12 Posts: 1
    Are kumho solus KH25 good tires?
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,534
    edited June 2013
    Read what folks say here:
    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Solus+KH25

    They seem to be VERY low-rated, overall.

    What make/model/year car?
  • Does the DOT or other agency have rules or guidelines re how many nail holes can be repaired in one tire at one time? IOW, if I have a tire with 4 nails in it, is there a reg that says do not repair that tire?

    If you know of such regs, can you tell how I can find them online?

    I have searched the DOT site and nhtsa.gov, which forwarded me to safercar.gov. safercar.gov has a 100 word statement which appears to be the sum total of the info they have to offer on tire repair. Found little to no help from any of these sites.
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 4,088
    The Rubber Manufacturers Association offers guidelines for proper repair. There doesn't appear to be a limit on the number of repairs per tire, but they are very strict on what is considered the repairable area of the tire, as well as the use of an "umbrella plug" which seals the inner liner.
  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 793
    There aren't any laws on the number of repairs that can be done to tires. Just like there aren't any laws about how many repairs can be done to a car.

    But common sense should apply here: 4 nails is a lot of damage to the structure of a tire. You can't expect a tire to perform when it is damaged to that extent. Since unlike cars, where pieces are replaced when damaged, tires rely on "patches" to "bridge" the damage - and every patch increases the risk of failure.

    If one is super sensitive to risk, then every punctured tire should be replaced - but most people aren't that way. Doubling, tripling, quadrupling the risk gets into some serious risk issues.
  • Thanks for the link. And thaks to capriracer as well. I also found PUNCTURE REPAIR PROCEDURES at the RMA site and wondered how my local shop could do all of these steps to fix 4 holes for $15. I went back there today and talked to the owner. Very friendly and cooperative, he took me into the shop and showed me what he uses. Basically, for regular small punctures (might have said up to something like a 10 penny nail), he uses Centech patches inside the tire, with no plug and that they were the highest quality and so flexible that they could be used near the sidewall. When I pointed out that RMA stated that a patch without a plug is not a proper repair, he showed me a plug/patch combo (like these at fixtires.com) and pointed to the part of the plug nearest the patch and told me that for a small nail hole, you do not want to drill the hole larger to accommodate this size plug. I also asked him about the danger of water getting in the unplugged hole and rusting the steel bands. I don't remember his exact reply, but clearly, he did not consider this an issue with most small holes.

    NOTE:
    This is a family owned business that has been in our small city [aprx 60,000] for decades. On their google+ page they have 24 reviews and a 4.6 rating with only 2 people having anything negative to say about them (and no complaints about tire repairs gone bad). Many report that these folk are not out to make a shady buck. They charged me $30 to remove/repair 5 nails/screws from 2 tires. The owner had originally told me he might have to charge more.

    nwsalesgroup.com/product/233.aspx "Centech is the most advanced radial tire repair system ever developed. Crown, shoulder or sidewall injuries in passager and truck tires can be repaired with Centech center over injury radial repairs. A special compound and design allow the repair unit to flex and resist heat, assuring a permanent repair." (these are the patches he showed me)
    "*All Centech repair units must be used in conjunction with the proper injury filler material." (does not say if this is Centech's statement or nwsalesgroup.com's)
  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 793
    Here's the problem:

    When we talk about tire failures, we're talking about fractions of a percent.

    So when we are talking about tire repair failures, we are talking about percents of a fraction of a percent - and that's so small a number that one individual can NOT perceive it. You have to have access to a larger amount of information to determine what is going on - and guess who has that large of a database? The tire manufacturers who make up the Rubber Manufacturers Association. That's why they published the procedure.

    Not to add dispersions on your local dealer, but it is pretty common for these folks to rely on their own experience and ignore the experience of others.
  • You lost me. First, you seem to say the percentages of failure are so infintesimal they are not worth worrying about. Then you say only big entities like RMA would have the real data and so they design these complex procedures that what? - indicates there is a problem... and also, many repair guys just do their own thing?

    I am an old man with fewer brain cells every day, so maybe you could go a little slower... (and thanks).
  • capriracercapriracer Somewhere in the USPosts: 793
    First, let's assume the normal failure rate for tires is 1%. That number is way, way too high, but I'm only using that number to illustrate a point.

    If 10% of the tires are repaired (probably a reason number), and 10% of those repairs cause a failure (that may be high!), then the overall tire failure rate is 0.01%. That's why tire manufacturers are the only ones who would have a database that could makes sense of such a small number.

    Now that may seem like a "Nothing to worry about" type of statistic. but tire failures have been known to cause accidents - and some of those result in some very tragic events. So even a very small number is to be avoided, if possible. This is the other reason why it is important to have this statistic well defined.

    Bottomline: Tire repair failure rates should not add to the overall failure rate. At worst, they should be only slightly worse. (Certainly, they can't be better!)Unfortunately, repaired tires do fail more often than unrepaired tires - hence the warnings about repairs and repair procedures.

    Furtherly unfortunate, most people doing tire repairs never hear about those tragic events - even though they may have been responsible. There is no built-in mechanism for them to be aware of such events.
  • For what it is worth:

    Safety Problems Associated With Tires "There is no direct evidence in NHTSA's crash data files that points to defective or sub-standard tires as the cause of a particular crash..." but this page does present (October 2001?) Tire-Related Crash data and information - NHTSA data

    NHTSA Urges Drivers to Check Tires During Hot Weather

    Your Tires May Be A Ticking Time Bomb
    Many vehicles have tires which are old, even recently bought "new" tires
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