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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    IMO, it defies reason to drive off with a cup of hot coffee on your lap. Oh, well.

    juice: Was that for real re: the cruise control lawsuit and payment?? wow!

    tidester
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  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    Glodencouple1- While your point regarding big corporations balancing profits with potential law suit losses is a good one, the McDonalds instance is a poor example since "the nice older woman" knew full well that the cup of coffee had the potential to scald her yet chose to balance it in her lap anyway. Had the drive-up window attendant accidentally spilled it on her then I'd say she had a case, but since it was her own stupidity that caused her to be scalded, I think the jury was flat out wrong. And speaking of juries, hasn't it been proven that juries almost always award higher amounts than judges do? Personal injury lawyers know this and appeal to the sympathies of a jury against big bad corporation in getting those "punitive" judgements. Unfortunately, in most cases, those multi-million judgements are passed on to Joe Consumer in the way of higher prices.

    -Frank P.
  • tincup47tincup47 Posts: 1,508
    might tend to not put safety above all else...


    http://www.auto.com/industry/buyer18_20020718.htm


    Personally, I feel most companies go out of there way to develop safe products, unfortunately it is impossible to totally "idiot-proof" everything.

  • mtngalmtngal Posts: 1,911
    I can see, though, why price and low interest rates would score higher than safety concerns. A safe car is no good to me if I can't afford it. And for long distance commuters, a well placed cup holder is safer. The Taco has very inconvenient cup holders and a couple of times I haven't been able to find it with the cup when something unexpected happens (I know, I probably shouldn't be drinking anyway).

    I think most people think that structurally most vehicles are pretty much the same, so it isn't the safety they are as interested in as other things. And if the idiots I saw passing multiple cars on a 2 lane road with difficult visibility yesterday are any indication, they don't care about their safety or the safety of anyone else. It looked like one of them managed to pull back into his lane only about 10 feet in front of the oncoming car (who had moved over onto the shoulder as much as he could).
  • I'd like to see the citation on the Winnebago case. I'd like to read it.

    Re: coffee. The point might have been that the coffee could have been rendered more safe with a lower temperature, while maintaining its appeal. And that McDonalds had shown a disregard for safety, choosing to injure people and settle, rather than take a safety measure other similarly situated companies had taken.

    Re: juries. The Defendants have good attorneys too. There is a right to jury participation. The jury system gives the public a voice in how these situations go. If there is a problem with jury awards, it is the public at large that can remedy the situation.

    If manufacturers and insurance companies had greater regard for safety and the sanctity of contracts, there'd be fewer claims and frivilous claims could be better contained.

    Yes there are ravenous lawyers looking for a big score. No argument. But it takes clients, juries, injuries, negligent manufacturers or service providers, and a supporting body of law to the lawsuits possible. And most are valid claims.

    Further, blaming attorneys for an ill that is basic to American culture is just one more time that people do not take responsibility for their actions. Without America being America, in all its complexity, the lawyers that try to trump up false claims could never succeed, and they would not try, as economic forces would discourage it.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    There is a right to jury participation.

    Doesn't that apply only to criminal cases? I believe the McDonald's case (and the others mentioned here) are civil cases.

    Any lawyers here?

    tidester
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    tincup: well placed cup holders may BE a safety feature to some consumers! LOL

    I do agree that safety isn't any good if I can't afford it.

    -juice
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,951
    There's some links out there about the McDonalds coffee case. Basically MickyDee's kept its coffee at some crazy temp (180F?) and knew people were getting hurt from it spilling. I think McD's got everything they deserved, even if the judge, iirc, lowered the amount the jury awarded.

    Funny how people love to jump on the lawyers, but never their clients, the juries, the judges. Guess we're all so easily manipulated by lawyers and led down the garden path by our noses.

    (don't mind me - I just read John Grisham's book about jury nullification last month or so ago, so I'm an expert ).

    Steve
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  • clever1clever1 Posts: 123
    Here's a link to the McDonalds case:

    http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm


    While the plaintiff, Stella Liebeck, legitimately suffered and was relatively paid her due, the story of this case inspired The 'Stella' Award for the most frivolous lawsuit in the U.S. Look that up on any search engine and you will find the Winnebago story and many other amusements, although it's hard to say what's urban legend and what's not without further research.


    Otherwise, juries tend to favor whichever side they can empathize with on a personal level, certainly not just the facts. That's one of myriad reasons so many cases against monolithic corporations settle out of court without establishing precedent, and an obvious driving force in the vicious cycle.

  • I'm buying a car for my wife. Our budget is close enough to buy a Forester, Escape, Santa Fe or Liberty. She'll use it 90% of time in the city. IS forester the best option?. We've never owned a Subaru before, but AWD and security (excellent crash ratings) seems to give the subie an edge over the pack. Am I correct?
    Thx
  • clever1clever1 Posts: 123
    4wdisfun: You're probably going to get a lot of conflicting feedback about that question. One important factor has to do with that 10% of time your wife's not driving in the city. Will she go into rough terrain? Does she want/need to tow anything? Do you have another vehicle that takes care of the heavier duty 4x4 stuff, or will this be it? Does she prefer the feel or appearance of any particular one?

    Generally, I think the Forester is an excellent choice for good mileage, adequate pep, easy urban parking, excellent full-time AWD, etc.; but the others each have their definite advantages and no terrible deficiencies. Be sure to also check the other boards about these vehicles to help your decision.
  • mtngalmtngal Posts: 1,911
    And the answer to me is, it depends. There are many on this board who disagree with me totally on this. And further, I don't own any of these, but am pretty sure I'm going to buy a Subaru when the time comes next spring. I would probably go with the Forester in your case, mainly because it gets better gas mileage, and you don't indicate a need for the additional power/capabilities that you might pick up with any of the others. In my case, I like the Forester, my other half prefers the Outback, and we could easily compromise on a WRX. Bottom line: any of them would be fine - which one does she like best?
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    All are good vehicles. Which one does she feel the most comfortable in or like the look of most?
    I'll go ahead and stir the pot..

    If you want to off road 4x4ing: Liberty
    If you want great acceleration,performance: Escape
    If you want great MPG's: Forrester
    The Sante-Fe doesn't really have anything that makes it stand out. It has a rather 'unique' styling, but no more or less so than the Liberty or the Forrester..

    Personally, I (or really my wife) drives an Escape. We never go off road, it gets a quite acceptable 21+ mpgs for us, has a great look to it and is a blast to drive..

    In addition to the vehicle itself, how good are the dealer services (both in the sales and maintenance departments) for the different brands in your area?

    If I were forced to rank them..
    Escape, Sante-Fe, Liberty, Forrester.. My rank isn't completely based on how the vehicle 'looks', but it just has a look that doesn't appeal to me at all, coupled with its higher price and mediocre performance put it last. I also didn't like the lower seating position.

    The Liberty is a small step up in performance (not handling). It is rugged (and has more of an SUV look to it) but you pay for this off road ability with a much firmer ride than most others in this class. I'm not a fan of the spare on the rear tailgate. I don't have any off-roading needs that you cant do with common sense and a front wheel drive car with decent ground clearance. (gotta have the bottom of the vehicle above the snow).

    The Sante-Fe doesn't have the acceleration that the Jeep has, but makes up for this with a comfortable ride, great price for the options you get, and decent interior.. I didn't like the exterior look of the Sante-Fe, and the Hyundai dealerships in my area have questionable reputations.

    The Escape was the best for what mattered most to me. Great acceleration, excellent handling, comfortable ride and seating position, excellent exterior look, good value, reliability and dealer service.

    Everyone has different priorities and tastes. All of these are great vehicles. No matter which you choose, you won't be disappointed..
  • Criminal trial via constitution. Civil trial via law in a particular jurisdiction.

    If lawyers did not exist, certain persons would fulfill the role, and...lawyers would exist. Lawyers fight bullies, and are generally well compensated for it. And they are unpopular. And they suffer tremendous stress. They are responsible for their clients' welfare, morally, ethically, and legally; and the vast majority take that responsibility very seriously and end up losing sleep over it. Without lawyers willing to face an unsympathetic public and espouse unpopular causes, many if not most of your rights would not exist now. It is not out of the goodness of the hearts of large US businesses and the US government that civil rights are enforced or that you are protected from tainted food, unsafe working conditions, poorly manufactured products, or pollution, or a host of other hazards and infringements of privileges and rights granted by law, or God, or whatever. It may not always be convenient that people can behave as if they live in a relatively free country -- not if you have to pay some price for it. But when it is your rights or health that is on the line, and the majority of people would you prefer that you suffer in silence, take your loss, and disappear, then it is pretty good to have someone that will take up your cause.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    I too like the WRX..Currently we are a 2 truck family (Escape and SuperDuty), but if were to pick car, the WRX would be at the top of my list..
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    There are as many different types of lawyers and law practices out there to match the diversity of the clients they serve.. So I try to not over generalize all lawyers or law practices when making statements.

    There are many individuals out there who's only interest is making a buck (or several thousand), when there was no wrong done. These individuals seek out a lawyer to pursue their cause, and it is the lawyers responsibility to help their client. My problem here is with the individual that approached the lawyer..

    Then there are folks who are on the fence. They know there was no wrong done, and have no plans on getting a lawyer involved. UNTIL some lawyer looking to make a buck (or several thousand) and gives incentive for the individual to pursue the case (by offering that the customer can only make money, and not lose). My problem here is with the lawyers that do this, and the clients they represent.

    There are other types of individuals out there that want to blame everyone else and not take responsibility for their actions.

    Summary: I'm glad there are lawyers there to take up our causes. But often the 'cause' being pursued was created by the lawyer and not the individual.

    Lawyers can't stop law suit abuse, but there are alot of lawyers out there encouraging it rather than discouraging it.

    Sortof like the media which today does more 'creating the news' rather than just 'reporting the news'.

    And now back to our originally scheduled program.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    Frankly, I'm all for it! I oppose limitations on what "awards" can be made as it represents undeserved and dangerous protection of corporations. I also oppose corporate campaign contributions but then that takes me way too far off topic! :-)

    tidester
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  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    If you thought the McD's coffee case was stupid, I think it was last month where some guy was trying to sue the fast food chains that made him fat and suffered heart attacks. Apparently he thinks that fast food, like cigarettes, should have warning labels on them. *rolls eyes*
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,951
    Must of worked, since McDonalds appears to be changing their french fry oil :-).

    Anyone else want to weigh in with some opinions for 4wdisfun?

    Steve
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  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    Apparently he thinks that fast food, like cigarettes, should have warning labels on them. *rolls eyes*

    Speaking of which, I think all paper clips should carry warning labels admonishing the user from thrusting them into their eyeballs! :-)

    tidester
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