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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    That's a valid point, but where there's a lot of smoke, there's ususally a fire. Compare the NTSB complaint volume about 1999+ Jeep Grand Cherokees against similar Pathfinders, and compare that to your impression from other sources. There's a very high level of correspondence between the complaints and what I think is the real world.

    My impression is that about 90% of Forester/Outback owners are extremely happy with their cars, but about 10% have very bad experiences and hate them. It would be interesting for someone to do a study and determine why the same vehicles would be viewed so radically different for some.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "My impression is that about 90% of Forester/Outback owners are extremely happy with their cars, but about 10% have very bad experiences and hate them."

    Let me paraphrase:

    My impression is that about yy% of pick your model owners are extremely happy with their cars, but about zz% have very bad experiences and hate them.

    This applies to any car. Imagine those Toyota fans with the sludged up engine, or the Honda fans with their dead trannies.
  • done37done37 Member Posts: 64
    90% is an "A" in my book. I'll take it!! :)
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    I looked up my Forester's MY (2004). There were a couple of worrisome items about airbags not deploying in high-speed crashes, but most of them are things like "Customer can't see speedometer in daylight hours and would like full refund" or "customer claims vehicle generates too much static electricity."
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm sure there is a grain of truth to most of these. With a boat load of Subarus cars on the road today, there is sure to be some oddball type of issue/problem in a percentage of cars. That is the way it is. Hopefully these issues/problems are not global design defects.

    But somebody is going to report them and when we hear about them, we are going to scratch or shake our heads.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    ODI is looking at a relatively small sample of problems. And it's not scientific at all. Reading that will likely scare you away from ANY new car. :D

    Also, better selling cars will register more complaints. But that doesn't mean your odds are worse. There are more good ones, too.

    CR at least gathers a big enough sample size to be meaningful. Plus they look at what % of cars have problems, so if you want to know what your odds are of getting a reliable car, the data is more meaningful.

    I didn't say the Forester (one R, by the way) would be better off road. It has more clearance, but the Grand Vitara's low range and optional skid plates would make it the better choice if you do more than light duty off roading.

    -juice
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Good points.

    Unfortunately there are no standards for what "clearance" means. Subaru may have given the Forester a larger clearance number than Suzuki gave the GV, but I bet the approach and departure angles are inferior on the Forester. Breakover angle is another issue. The GV suffers from lower control arms on the rear wheels that are typical for independent rear suspension and are a problem in deep ruts. The Escape/Tribute has a good clearance number also, but next time you're behind one, take a look at the control arms. At least the GV's are tucked up a bit and look substantial. A raw "clearance" number ignores many critical issues.

    Softer suspension, gearing to allow crawling, and underbody vulnerability can be even harder to evaluate, but are important factors related to clearance.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Agreed.

    At least Subaru does offer a rear skid plate (aftermarket supplies front ones) and the front/rear struts are out of the way.

    Here's a pic of mine, you get an idea how clean the underside is. The lowest point is the front cross member, that's what you see sticking down.

    -juice
  • kutyafalkutyafal Member Posts: 27
    I can confirm that the 06 Grand Vitara can do
    some off-roading. I admit, it needs some prep to do more but it could
    be done fairly simply. Check out the pics in my post on my Carspace. The photos don't show it well but this trail was pretty steep. Low range is a must here! I'd be very curious to see the Subaru, Ford, Saturn or Rav4 make it up here. If you're game, I'll take you there. :)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'd like to think my Outback could handle that. I don't suppose that's anywhere near Idaho though, so I'm probably safe in saying that, lol.

    Mild Idaho 4WD trail
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That looks like fun. Where is that trail?

    I have a rear skid plate but I'd probably add a front one before going on that trail. At least they are readily available since a lot of Subaru owners do Rally Cross.

    -juice
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In my neck of the woods, that is considered to be a road in excellent shape worthy of rush hour traffic. My Forester takes that at 65 with absolutely no issue whatsoever. :sick
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    I realize these comments were meant tongue-in-cheek. It's notoriously difficult to depict how rough a road was with still pictures. Grades look flat and both holes and protruding rocks just disappear into the road texture.

    If low range was not an advantage in some conditions, no vehicle would be equipped with it. Subaru hasn't offered a low range since about 1980. The GV does. Case dismissed.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But I don't pretend my Subaru will see trail rated trails that can be easily handled by a Jeep. For the few people who go offroading on level 4 and 5 trails, a Subaru will not do. But I wouldn't get a GV if that was my objective, I would get the real deal a Jeep. As you say...case dismissed.

    Check out this thread written by markcincinatti to see how a BMW X5 handles difficult trails.

    markcincinnati, "BMW X3" #2854, 11 Sep 2006 12:51 pm
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You're off by about a decade. The Loyale was sold until around 1992, IIRC. The Impreza replaced it for 1993, and the low range lockable 4WD was replaced by AWD.

    Subaru still sells a Forester with a low-range in places like Australia. Oddly enough, you can also get one in Puerto Rico, last I heard, and that's a US Territory. :shades:

    We had a member from PR that was active on these boards, but he hasn't posted in a while.

    -juice
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    low range does encourage you to take some extra chances.
    i've gotten myselg in a couple of situations where i needed it. if i didn't have it, i wouldn't have gone there.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Sounds like they gave the X5's a good workout. Near here we have a road that climbs from sea level to 3000', and we use it regularly in the winter to go back-country skiing. Snow level is always partway down the road, which is gravel, rough, narrow, steep, and typically slopes toward the dropoff. Usually it's not plowed, and even if it is, it can be very slippery as it climbs through the freezing point. Because snow depth increases rapidly with altitude, it provides a progressively more difficult test of vehicles.

    Last winter, the GV always effortlessly made it to the top on the stock tires, without chains. Believe me, we passed many vehicles parked, or mounting chains. One day when leaving, I picked up a couple on foot at the top parking lot. Several km's down the road, I dropped them off at their vehicle - an X5. I suspect they must have lost their nerve going up and parked, since I'm sure the X5 could have gone as far as I did, but still...

    Fortunately for the X5 owners I picked up, they had the luck to experience being coddled in the GV's elegant cabin, surrounded by exquisite wood-grain trim and the finest leather surfaces.
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Thanks for the correction. I know that in Canada at least, the last few years of Loyale wagons sold did not have the low range, so I'm not sure exactly when it was phased out. Certainly later than the year I stated.

    Interesting that the Forester is made with a low range in some markets. I wonder if they beefed up the drivetrain on that one.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If I were to regularly climb the type of trail you describe, I would pick up a no nonsense Jeep Grand Cherokee with Quadra Drive II (I've had a Jeep with the QD system, it's probably the best on the road in the price range, although no lockers). But alas, the most offroad I ever go is the rough roads of the east coast. The GV and Forester are made for two different audiences. The Forester is meant for some light off-road duty, with the turbo it's a rocket, measured at 5.3 to 60 with the manual. Performance at 8000 feet is the same as performance on 0 feet. The GV can't touch it in that regard. But I wouldn't take the Forester on trails such as markcinncinati described either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The low range is a small reduction, something like 17%.

    Unlike in the US, most owners do actually go wander off pavement, and Subarus are used by Park Rangers and the like to get to those places.

    I got a set of snow tires for my Forester, so I'll get to try those for the first time in a few months. Can't wait. It was already great in snow...

    Best of all they were a gift.

    -juice
  • kutyafalkutyafal Member Posts: 27
    The low range in the GV is actually ~2:1 giving it around 30:1 overall crawl ratio. The effective crawl ratio for the automatic is actually around 30% more due to the torque converter's multiplying effect. Until recently I used to have a built Jeep with a 4:1 transfer case, lockers and other goodies. You can see it here. However, I still have the '96 Grand Limited. A little more comfy on the trails... :)

    There are situations where even a Subaru, Rav4, CR-V and the like, without low range can tackle a steep hill as long as it's not too long so you don't exhaust your momentum and no rocks to stop you. I learned way back when my Jeep was still mostly stock that just because it had low range it didn't mean it could go anywhere. It is just one component of the total package. In case of the GV and like vehicles in stock form it could also get you into trouble since with it you can now attempt terrain others without low range can't even try but it doesn't mean you'll complete it. For that you'd need to add lift and taller more aggressive tires for clearance and traction and of course underside protection from the inevitable. You'd need to disconnect the front sway bar and might still hit places where a solid diff locker would be needed. At the end each trail is different and it's a fine line as to what works and what doesn't on a specific one.

    The trail in the pictures is in N. Virginia, in the George Washington National Forest. It's about 6 miles long with an average gradient of 20% and some places pegging 40%. Conditions can vary greatly depending on weather. When I was there it was rutted out with cross-flow washouts that were deep enough that I scraped the front plastic air dam and the rear license plate holder several times. It is also covered in several sections with rocks ranging from baseball size to basketball size requiring some spotting to get through unscaved. It's mostly used by dirt bikers and ATV riders who were looking at me when I was there like I was a fish out of water. :)

    It's a legal OHV trail and if anybody want to try it out I'd be glad to organize a trail ride may it be a Subaru wagon or a pimped CR-V owner. :P I don't like to ride alone and there are great scenic trails leading to the trail with camping sites alongside. Fall is coming and I definitely want to get out there a few more times. So let me know...
  • kutyafalkutyafal Member Posts: 27
    Here is a link to the japanese 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara promo site that has a great video of the Grand Vitara being tested on an off-road course. It shows well the clearances, approach, departure and break-over angles and the traction control system at work: GV off-road test. Choose the second video on the left (either speed).

    You will see of course that it could always use more clearance and suspension articulation but it does very well as it is! I do whish that it had more sensors for the traction control so the wheel without traction wouldn't have to spin a full turn before the system engaged.

    However, a 2" easy-to-bolt-on lift kit is already available and there is room for 2" oversized tires. Add some skid plates and it becomes a whole different animal! :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool vid. There's a bit of wheelspin in some scenes, so I wonder if they turned off the traction control to get a bit of wheel slip to help build momentum? Either way, it proved very capable.

    Here's a video of Subaru dealers testing the Forester up against some competition. The on-demand AWD systems don't fare well...

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4999142340359932162

    -juice
  • kutyafalkutyafal Member Posts: 27
    The wheel spin occurs because there is only one sensor on each wheel that is used to provide wheel speed input to the traction control. It will have to turn a full revolution for the traction control system to get the input and be able to compute rotational differences between the spinning and the other wheels. You can't turn traction control off anyways, only the ESP (stability control), and that's a different system.

    I heard the Toyota 4Runner has multiple sensors for example but don't quote me on it. It would also be easy to install a proper differential locker into the legendary Toyota 8" rear axle but that's a whole different class of vehicle alltogether. For what the Suzuki is and for the money it seems to work well enough.
  • dstew1dstew1 Member Posts: 275
    Video of an FXT climbing the following 70% grade:

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Impressive. I'm certain most people would be scared to even attempt that. You're basically looking straight up in the sky! :surprise:

    -juice
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I wouldn't even attempt coming down a hill like that on my snowboard unless the snow was just right! And those fences would definitely have to go. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe on an inner tube. :D

    -juice
  • kutyafalkutyafal Member Posts: 27
    Was that an automatic or manual tranny? I also thought I heard some noises...
  • dstew1dstew1 Member Posts: 275
    The post I borrowed it from over at sf.org said it was an Auto.
  • kutyafalkutyafal Member Posts: 27
    That's what I thought. The auto helps with torque multiplication via the torque converter. I think even the manual first gear is pretty low too.

    I mean it's certainly impressive but wonder how hard would a long steep trail be on the transmission... The other video posted shows the advantages of a mechanical type center differential vs. a clutch type. If I'm not mistaken the Subaru has a Torsen type, right? The Grand Vitara also has a mechanical center diff, plus it's rear wheel drive with up to 50% torque to the front and of course it has a low range. You could basically do a hill like that all day long without a worry.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The manual Forester has a hill holder clutch, so at the very least it would not slide backward while trying to start on that incline.

    It's actually more useful for a novice to learn stick.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    True but... I pity the fool that learns on a Forester with the hill holder and then tries to drive a manual tranny anything else in hilly terrain ;)

    -Frank
  • kavoomkavoom Member Posts: 181
    Agreed. I do not allow myself to become dependent and try to act like it is not there. But when pulling a trailer it is nice to know it is...
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    You'll notice a lot of new discussions here in the Subaru Forester Group.

    Among the discussions you'll find are:

    New Subaru Forester Owners - Give Us Your Report!
    Subaru Forester: MPG-Real World Numbers
    Subaru Forester Tire/Wheel Questions
    Subaru Forester Transmission Questions
    Forester Body Work: Fixing Dents and Dings
    Forester Interior & Passenger Comfort Questions
    Subaru Forester Engine Issues
    Subaru Forester Brake Questions
    Subaru Forester Electrical/Lighting Issues
    How Much Can The Forester Carry?

    Please be sure to check the discussion list for an appropriate discussion whenyou are ready to post. If you have a question or issue that doesn't appear to fit one of the existing discussions on the list, please feel free to start up a new discussion.

    Thanks for your understanding and assistance as we move through this reorganization of the forums.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Almost forgot...

    Rather than try to create all the "logical" comparison discussions for "Forester vs ____", we'll let those evolve as users out there are shopping different vehicles.

    Since we're here in the Forester Group, the only naming convention I'd ask you toremember would be to put the Forester in the title first, followed by the other vehicle, as in :

    Subaru Forester vs Mazda CX-7
  • phatboycphatboyc Member Posts: 23
    For anyone who is interested. I went off-road with my 07 Santa Fe last weekend. I don't have 4LO but do have a 50/50 lock button. Well lets just say mu cousin's Blazer 4x4 on 4LO had a hard time following me. I have more details and pics here: link title
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You need to set up your CarSpace.com page so you can post the photos big enough so old guys like me can see them. :shades:

    Time to link to my Outback off-roading pic again:

    link
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Nice shots. My guess is the tires are what did it. Tires are about 85% of the key to offroading and snow-driving in particular.

    -mike
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    nokian tires are supposed to be great snow tires.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    Not to diminish how well the Santa Fe did, which is impressive and must have been very satisfying.

    The tires on the Blazer are now an outdated design that would not have nearly the traction yours do in this circumstance. They have meaty tread blocks, but not much in the way of sipes. Probably they're also a harder compound. In addition, the flying snow in the photo of the struggling Blazer makes me think that it did not have a posi-traction rear axle, or a locked locker. It's pretty useless to have a 4x4 on snow without some form of traction control.

    Our '06 Grand Vitara has vastly superior traction on snow compared to the '91 Pathfinder it replaced, even with the Pathfinder having a posi rear axle. This is due to an ideal weight distribution and a traction control system, certainly not because of the GV's oem tires.

    Can you get a low range on the new Santa Fe? An automatic is a reasonable substitute for a low range, until you have to do very prolonged steep uphill or descents on very rough roads.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    From the pics it's more a snow-event than an offroad event.

    I bet that blazer would kick the Santa-Fe's butt if it were rock climbing or mudding.

    -mike
  • phatboycphatboyc Member Posts: 23
    No 4LO available on the Santa Fe. As I have read, using the brake and gas pedal at the same time can substitute for a 4LO. Just not for long period of time since it is hard on the torque converter. Since I do not plan on any doing any rock climbing I should be alright.

    Can't wait to do some mudding this summer. But for now I'm having to much fun in the snow. Which I prefer since it is easier to clean the underside afterwards.

    Not sure if the Blazer has a posi-traction rear axle. I think so but definitely no locker. Seems like the back sliding action when it was going uphill was cause more by the tires trying to catch up to the front. Seems like the 4WD system is not distributing the power evenly back to front.

    On the Santa Fe I have a 50/50 lock button. It's harder to tell if it's splitting the power evenly since it is normally front bias. But since I was able to stop and go on the hill and not him...

    When you guys take your GF or Subaru out in the snow,mud. Do you leave the traction control on? I tried both and had a hard time telling a difference when I was doing stop and go on the hill. Apart with ESC and TC on I had a warning light in the dash blinking when I was spinning and going nowhere.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'd leave it off for offroading, because if you need to power-out of a spot, spinning the wheels for traction, the TC will cut power to the engine and leave you in a mud-bog!

    -mike
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    Steve,

    Did you click on the thumbnails? The pictures blow up and are quite easy for an old guy like met to see. :confuse:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nah, I wanted to encourage you to set up your CarSpace albums, LOL. Can't you take a simple hint? :shades:
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    Nice cover. Maybe someone else will buy it. :P
  • xostnotxostnot Member Posts: 232
    That's true, it will, and that can cost you your momentum. But if you keep your foot in it, the power will come back.
  • junkedjunked Member Posts: 1
    They were both total peices of junk. If I had to choose I would want my vega as my saturn vue was $20,000. It is falling apart peice by peice. First the hood realease broke, then the rear wiper moter. The the fan switch then the cruise control. It is just three years old. It is made with plastic tinker toy parts. Dont waste your money. Buy a toyota. I think an american can build a great car but I think that an American car company is unable to compete in the car market when quality is the issue. No 200,000 mile GM cars. they even say "LIKE A ROCK" sitting in the wrecking yard, anthor example of "PROFESSIONAL GRADE ENGINEERING!!"
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Right, but by the time the power comes back you might be in a pit of mud up to the frame rails, and then all the power in the world won't help you out. In fact on my Armada when you put it in 4-lo, it turns off the traction control by default, leaving only the ABLS engaged for each axle.

    -mike
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