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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    think the original issue is by removing this, they are in effect lowering the performance of the vehicle.

    Then buy the top Impreza trim level the Subaru equivalent of the ITR v. GSR the STi. My issue is not with what people want, my issue is that Subaru DOES IN FACT OFFER A FACTORY LSD in the Impreza, you simply need to step up to the top trim level to get it.

    You want to play, you gotta pay, same story over and over...

    Also your example of the the Focus is way off "seemed to be more stable out of the corners" This could be effected by a lot of things, of which the LSD aftermarket is probably least important, tires, suspension, sways, etc will effect how it "looks" much more. Oh and that's an aftermarket LSD so we can't really introduce that into this arguement since aftermarket LSD are superior to stockers even the best stockers.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The mainstream doesn't want a Subaru, people who want a Subaru want Subarus, and they are working hard to lose that market. They can ask VW how its working for them...

    Seriously, in all reality will it's lacking an LSD really effect sales? I'm willing to bet that it doesn't effect the sales by more than 0.001%

    -mike
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Then buy the top Impreza trim level the Subaru equivalent of the ITR v. GSR the STi. My issue is not with what people want, my issue is that Subaru DOES IN FACT OFFER A FACTORY LSD in the Impreza, you simply need to step up to the top trim level to get it.

    I think the point is Mike that Subaru offered it in 2007 on the WRX but removed it for 2008 but didn't lower the price or increase the performance on the WRX.
    I'm glad you are defending the brand along with Bob, but you guys are missing our point.
    You should NOT have to go up $8K to get what came in a car that was cheaper a year before. No complaining will change that. but be sure of this Subie customers DO know this and we all can't afford the time and or money too race on a track. For me it's just plain lack of time. When i was in the US I had precious little of it.
    I think this article that was posted in another group says it all.
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2778

    Oh and in another group they had sound clips f the EVO X on the street and it sounded like a 1980's Dodge Colt or something. My wife and i both think trying a base Impreza along with the WRX and some other brands is the way to go. Subaru has really not made me feel like I'd want their product as much as I did before. I might buy one but an $8K turbo is a lot of money and I just don't see enough extra in the 2008 WRX to justify an $8k difference and for what an STI costs I would seriously think BMW. The 135i should slot in about where the STI price point is if you don't load it with options and it will have really good performance, no AWD but still for the money Subaru is going more upscale and that's ok but even VW is dropping prices because it didn't work for them.
    Subaru will have to go back to producing edgy cars with quirky looks to get sales and mainstream sales are not what Subaru excels at. Honda and Toyota are so far ahead that it will be tough to steal away those loyal customers.
    What do you get for $25K well an Impreza with 224HP Turbo 4 and traction control and AWD or a V6 Honda accord with Honda reliability and comfort, ditto Toyota with Camry and the Impreza is closer to the Civic and the Corolla those cars are much cheaper.
    I think Subaru blew it this time. They got too excited by all the guys who didn't want the big wing on the back and I don't think Subaru will dramatically increase sales with their new tactics and retain them. The STI is a pretty limited production run car and quite expensive for what you get. I wonder if it's really anymore than new bodywork and interior or if it's really improved in the performance group. So far Mitsubishi has a hit with the EVO X with the looks but costly to buy and a limited market also.

    Also aftermarket stuff voids the warranty which matters for those of us who drive our car everyday and can't have it as a dedicated track car.
    For that matter a Formula Ford is a better buy as it's dedicated track use and cheaper and easier to buy and maintain.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Seriously, in all reality will it's lacking an LSD really effect sales? I'm willing to bet that it doesn't effect the sales by more than 0.001%

    Seriously how much are you willing to bet and is it an even money bet or are you giving odds on it?
    Because I'd like to make some money. 0.001% is like 1 car or something in the WRX line up although if we are going to wager we'd have to figure it out.
    I think initially with it being a new model Subaru will have a boost in sales which will peak and fall off.
    Subaru doesn't really do luxury and it's a long road and they already cost a lot. yes great AWD but Joe and Nancy Average consumer don't know the difference so they buy a CRV or a RAV 4 with leather and AWD or a 4WD with a button on the dash for the winter.

    So yes I'd really be willing to take that bet. Consumers will move over to the Mitsu which are offering better handling and performance and not cutting performance for a better interior.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    Consumers will move over to the Mitsu which are offering better handling and performance and not cutting performance for a better interior.

    I will take some issue with that. Unless by some miracle new Evo's price will get to $25,999 there is no danger of losing WRX because of Mitsu. Last time I checked it was also deep into 30s, depending on trim. Evo should be compared to STI, whose specs we still do not know (neither do we Evo's, actually).

    We still don't know what the new midtrim (Raliart?) is going to look like - I bet it will have same number of compromises to make a price target.

    So Steve - don't jump all over the place. Mitsubishi looks better, indeed, but so far there is nothing from them to match '08 WRX that we could inteligently talk about.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think the point mike it trying to make it actually pretty simple:

    Subaru is trying to sell the WRX to a bigger group of consumers.

    People that buy a WRX for track purposes will likely get an STI anyway, so it simply doesn't matter.

    Therefore no muss, no fuss. If you're a true enthusiast and want a track car the STI is for you. The regular WRX is now being equipped with VDC since it's a safety feature that is FAR more appealing to a broad market, and even a requirement to make the IIHS Top Safety Pick list.

    Admit this - being an Top IIHS Safety Pick is about 87.3 BILLION (*) times more marketable than having an LSD to a mainstream, car buying public. Maybe even 87.4 billion.

    * - this is scientifically proven and verified by the laws of common sense. Safety sells to the public.

    LSD is more commonly known as a drug that the Beatles sang about in Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. :D

    Very simple, really.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    * - this is scientifically proven and verified by the laws of common sense. Safety sells to the public

    Does it? When not so long ago Honda offered free stereo OR side airbags (or ABS - don't remember) with their JDM Civics, guess what was chosen OVERWHEALMINGLY. But trends change - yesterday it was CD Player, today it actually may be ABS, ESC, airbags, or whatever. It also varies from segment to segment. In some owners do not give s..., in others they would not touch a car that is low in crashworthiness.

    Back to WRX - IIHS HATES WRX to the point they recommended 2.5i in '06 and did not WRX, even though the latter has side airbags. Their lame excuse is "people buying those cars tend to be more dangerous anyway, so we don't recommend the car" I don't think they will suddenly have a change of heart now :cry:

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Admit this - being an Top IIHS Safety Pick is about 87.3 BILLION (*) times more marketable than having an LSD to a mainstream, car buying public. Maybe even 87.4 billion.

    LOL fair enough, I agree safety sells (we can watch the new Ford Taurus...:P) but Subaru isn't as marketable to the mainstream car buying public. It has a coarse engine and some NVH characteristics that are out of place in this segment. The styling is also far from "mainstream."

    People that buy a WRX for track purposes will likely get an STI anyway, so it simply doesn't matter.

    I disagree. I think that not having 35k to drop on a car doesn't exclude someone from being an enthusiast. I think I was more of an enthusiast with a $2000 SE-R track sl** (which did have a LSD, btw :P)than a 35k STI.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They are headed in the mainstream direction, though. On a sliding scale, the new design is less distinctive (quirky?) and will appeal to a broader audience.

    Sales are already up in Japan, so this is not just my opinion, by the way.

    Enthusiasts that don't have $35k can get a used track car. Don't they say you should never take a car to the track that you aren't willing to lose?

    Subaru would go bankrupt trying to market the WRX to this very small niche - people that want brand new cars to use on a track. I'm sure BOTH of them would be thrilled if the WRX had the LSD. ;)

    Meanwhile, the IIHS will change their tune as the WRX didn't gain any power (and competitors did) and added important safety features, namingly VDC.

    You mentioned other segments, so I will too. The CR-V has never offered an LSD, diffs were always open. Honda outsells the Forester about 3 to 1. Ouch. Forester has offered a limited-slip since MY2000. What good has it done for Subaru?

    Also, Honda made VSC standard on the CR-V, I think it was 2005 or 2006. Sales have grown, in fact so much that it's now the best-selling SUV in the country!

    Stability control sells to a broad market. LSD sells to a very tiny niche of enthusiasts that want a brand-new car for the track.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    They are headed in the mainstream direction, though. On a sliding scale, the new design is less distinctive (quirky?) and will appeal to a broader audience.

    Sales are already up in Japan, so this is not just my opinion, by the way.


    I would hardly consider Japan representative of the US market. I don't care for the '08 styling at all from the pictures I've seen, but will wait to see it in person.

    You mentioned other segments, so I will too. The CR-V has never offered an LSD, diffs were always open. Honda outsells the Forester about 3 to 1. Ouch. Forester has offered a limited-slip since MY2000. What good has it done for Subaru?

    The Honda has a better fit and finish, and better NVH than the Subaru, as well as much bigger dealer network. It has a more conventional drivetrain, and a better repair history.

    Enthusiasts that don't have $35k can get a used track car.

    So then you agree that Subaru alienated this demographic, if you are suggesting enthusiasts need to find a used vehicle as opposed to the new WRX?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You missed my primary point - the CR-V advantage grew when they started offering VSC. It continues to grow. VSC helped sales.

    When Subaru added a rear LSD in MY2000 sales were flat, and they've been flat since. The LSD didn't help sales.

    Every point you made existed back in 1998. I'm talking about Honda widening the gap.

    Finally, yes, Subaru alienated both of the people that want to buy a brand new $25k car for the track.

    With VDC, they will bring back thousands that crossed Subaru off their list for lacking the most talked about safety feature from this decade.

    Before you offer yet another rebuttle - I challenge you to answer a very simple question.

    What do you think is a bigger selling point for more people - LSD or VDC?

    The choice is obvious.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    You missed my primary point - the CR-V advantage grew when they started offering VSC. It continues to grow. VSC helped sales.

    So did making the CD player standard.

    Every point you made existed back in 1998. I'm talking about Honda widening the gap.

    Right, and Honda has had 3 redesigns since then to Subaru's 1 redesign. They also STILL have a much bigger dealer network, more inventory, etc. CR-Vs aren't flying out of the showroom because of stability control.

    With VDC, they will bring back thousands that crossed Subaru off their list for lacking the most talked about safety feature from this decade.

    Given that its 3 years from being mandatory, I don't think its a super advantage. Hopefully on the "sporting" applications they will take a cue from the MazdaSpeed6 and others and make it defeatable.

    I think there is a big risk in going "mainstream" for Subaru, as I pointed out, it didn't work so well for VW in the states.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    I agree with you on point of LSD - it will likely have very little impact on sales on its own. What is much more bothering is the combination of "going generic" with lagging feature content.

    When they offered quirky product for the almost-fanatic following, it was forgivable not to include certain "semi-standard" equipment in your aspired segment, even as option, or making some "funny" trim choices (to name a few lacking areas). Those people were willing to put up with that just so they have something unique and otherwise excellent. When you go mainstream and STILL insist certain stuff is not important (like "who would want leather, sunroof, HID lights", etc.), it's a kiss of death. Your following is gone, but those who you tried to attract aren't coming. See Mazda and Nissan in late 90s.

    I'm just afraid that's what may just happen now to Subaru.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    So did making the CD player standard

    Show some data to back up your claim? You're just saying that. What year did they do that? They did that a looong time ago and sales only spiked up recently, so I disagree.

    Honda has had 3 redesigns

    Wrong, they've had 2.

    VW didn't go mainstream, VW went premium. Sort of the opposite. They could not compete at the same price to they fled upscale in price. It was a big mistake for the People's Car to leave the mainstream, actually. Bad example.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    Subaru tried premium, too, didn't they? Of course you can't even call it "trying", as it lasted whole two years or so.

    As said before - now it seems they are trying what Mazda and Nissan dis in 90s and failed MISERABLY. Lets see how Subaru will. I don't hold my breath, although it is possible they learned something from those lessons.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Show some data to back up your claim? You're just saying that. What year did they do that? They did that a looong time ago and sales only spiked up recently, so I disagree.

    So sales spiked recently when the new model came out? Hmm.

    Honda has had 3 redesigns

    Wrong, they've had 2.

    1996-2001/2001-2006/2007+ (arguably the 2005 model was also a redesign, as they updated the body, changed the windows, and modified the drivetrain- which is also when they added DSC)

    VW didn't go mainstream, VW went premium. Sort of the opposite. They could not compete at the same price to they fled upscale in price. It was a big mistake for the People's Car to leave the mainstream, actually. Bad example.

    A Jetta starts at 17k, a Passat starts at 23k, that seems pretty mainstream, especially compared to Suabru pricing.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    A Jetta starts at 17k, a Passat starts at 23k, that seems pretty mainstream, especially compared to Suabru pricing.

    Only after they decontented them after realizing that fully loaded $25K Jettas and $30K+ Passats weren't selling.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Only after they decontented them after realizing that fully loaded $25K Jettas and $30K+ Passats weren't selling.

    Which was a recent phenomena in the first place. A 2000 Jetta 1.8t was about the same as a Impreza 2.5RS at the time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yes, Subaru's Premium push was something I opposed from the beginning.

    So sales spiked recently when the new model came out? Hmm

    The new CR-V came out and jumped to IIHS Top Picks list. Forester is on that list too, but with a big (*) - models with VDC only. :P

    Honda has had 3 designs total, but 2 REdesigns. There was the original 97-01 (RAV4 came out in 96, but the CR-V arrived here in 97). The first re-design was the 02 model. The 2nd re-design was the 07 model.

    The 05 was not a redesign. It was MMC, mid-model change, a face-lift only. They did not change the windows, nor did they change the drivetrain. They installed the 2.4l engine in 2002 and kept the same engine, same AWD system, it was not a redesign.

    VSC is a stand-alone thing for Honda, as proof note that some JDM models got it sooner than 2005.

    When the Jetta came out they priced it too high. VW learned their lesson and dropped prices and content with the value priced model. They corrected their mistake.

    Even now, go price a VW with 4Motion.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    Exactly - but VW wanted "more" and in their quest for higher margins they tried "upscale". Jetta sales plummeted, Passat wasn't doing great either. They came back (unhappily) to their "middle road" niche and started selling "value editions" in larger numbers than really wanted at the first place.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    They installed the 2.4l engine in 2002 and kept the same engine, same AWD system, it was not a redesign.

    Hmmm... Subaru's "legend reborn" has (almost) the same engine, tranny and (I think) AWD as they did in 2005. What does that say about them?

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Anyone else feel like we're having 3 conversations at once? :D

    Subaru took a page from BMW's book - seperate the introduction of new engines from new platforms so you have fresher products.

    When you stagger those, you have more to talk about, and give customers more reasons to come back to the dealer to sample the new engine or new vehicle.

    The basic engine is the same, some simple re-tuning, but yes it's a carry-over. There was nothing wrong with it before.

    Ask Bob, he owns one. He said he wished it were a little more quiet and refined.

    Subaru is addressing exactly those things. Bob didn't ask for more power (doesn't need it).
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    I don't have much of a problem with the engine, but the 4-speed auto is a disgrace. 5-speed manual is "a bit" disappointing, but I could still live with that. My experience with Subaru tells me that their "all new" models have a good "excitement" value, but two years later one get MUCH MUCH better deal for the money. Then 2 years from then even added features do not make it much better buy, as it visibly ages. Lets see examples:
    WRX - 02-03 fantastic start, but 06 was probably the sweet best one for me as best looking interior and exterior and 2.5 engine (except steering that was somehow lost in translation from earlier models). 07 suddenly looks really old.
    Legacy/Outback - similarly good start in '05, but each year brought some substantial content improvements, from better crashworthiness (06) to SI-Drive (07) and FINALLY steering wheel (08). Except of course their terrible decisions of dropping manual from Legacy wgn (06+) and dropping Legacy wagons altogether (08).

    Conclusion? Best Impreza will be 2010. They'll fix terrible grill, awful tail lights, we will see CVT or 5-speed auto w/paddles (or perhaps even DSG of sorts - who knows), perhaps even 6-speed MT of WRX, there may be new engine (perhaps still 2.5 but w/ even more pizazz) and they'll add some lacking features in the interior - sunroof, leather, perhaps HID, perhaps more. Those buying today will feel "cheated". ;)

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    4EAT is a mistake, agreed, but it sounds like they were working on a CVT already. I bet we see that one year after the intro.

    It's funny, though, I wouldn't even consider a WRX with an autotragic. Just seems like a waste.

    I hope they get it together for the Forester. A 4EAT will be a mistake given everyone else in that segment has 5 or even 6 ratios.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Anyone else feel like we're having 3 conversations at once?

    Yeah, but its interesting, and really doesn't have so much to do with the WRX anymore at all. I just hope it looks better in person than the pics I've seen so far.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    :D

    It does a little.

    I guess what features would help sell the 2008 WRX, any how.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    So Steve - don't jump all over the place. Mitsubishi looks better, indeed, but so far there is nothing from them to match '08 WRX that we could intelligently talk about.

    Granted the WRX has no competitor from Mitsubishi The Ralliart version won't be out until after the EVO is released. The WRX seems to offer very little for the extra $8K it costs tho. One of the forums I am on had pics of the 2008 WRX's on a car lot somewhere, and they were sedans so I guess the new cars are arriving now at dealerships.
    The WRX has to offer something for the money and I don't see that it's worth an extra $8K over the base Impreza but I could be wrong. Driving one will tell me that straight away. I've seen pics of the STI and it is not significantly better looking than the EVO as it still has the horrible nose on it. Body cladding can only hide so much and the pics and sound clips of the new EVO make the engine sound tinny and like an old dodge colt but the car looks really great. it probably won't be as reliable as a Subaru but Subaru went the wrong way with the styling and some other mechanical issues.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    People that buy a WRX for track purposes will likely get an STI anyway, so it simply doesn't matter.
    Therefore no muss, no fuss. If you're a true enthusiast and want a track car the STI is for you. The regular WRX is now being equipped with VDC since it's a safety feature that is FAR more appealing to a broad market, and even a requirement to make the IIHS Top Safety Pick list.
    Admit this - being an Top IIHS Safety Pick is about 87.3 BILLION (*) times more marketable than having an LSD to a mainstream, car buying public. Maybe even 87.4 billion.


    Yes, I agree that Subaru is trying to sell cars to a broader audience. No I do not think it will work in the long run.
    Yes I really do get Mikes point about guys who race will buy an STI after all what's an extra $8K or so, nothing really if you race.
    The looks are bland so it will appeal to people who are sick of their Hyundai's not having AWD and will probably buy a Subaru instead.
    yes i also agree many more people buy cars measured on safety issue alone. 5 star crash test scores and traction control 30 airbags etc....
    Also true that most people don't have a clue how their car even works and even few can drive a manual transmission.

    That said Subaru does not care about the very people who helped them in the early days and is not interested in the enthusiasts and if you want that sort of thing then put up your money for the STI or shut up! That is what Subaru is saying to me and a few others in this forum as well.
    Fine, ok, Subaru can laugh all the way to the bank. Let's see how big a deposit they are going to make once they tick off all the people who would have bought a WRX but don't want to spend over $30K for a Turbo and sport suspension and an LSD.

    So simple, yes and it's been steering me away from Subaru and If the Ralliart was coming out before the EVO it might matter. But BMW money for a Subaru which is a niche vehicle that is trying to go luxury and out of the niche market that IT created. Let's see them pull this off.
    I think it won't work. Wait until it gets out about the changes and how the car drives, maybe it's better. But I think Subaru buyers are in general pretty smart.
    So let's just wait and see what happens. ;)
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,549
    Sure, but that's quite different than saying "Oh I don't like WRX, cause Evo is better", which your almost did. You keep saying WRX is "Only" a better engine than 2.5i for 8 grand. I beg to disagree. You get upgrades in at least several crucial areas:
    1. 30% more hp in engine
    2. transmission
    3. suspension
    4. brakes
    5. wheels
    6. seats (believe me - it's a big issue)

    I can't say about interior.

    By the way - Joe Spitz lists read LSD as standard on '08 WRX. He may be wrong (as the site is clearly developing), but if not wouldn't that be funny?

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Sales are already up in Japan, so this is not just my opinion, by the way.

    No offense but so what? It's a new model, of course sales will be up. The thing is will this tactic by Subaru work in the long run or fail. It's not like Subaru hasn't tried things in the past and failed.

    You guys can justify Subaru removing the LSD all you want and love that new exterior but that doesn't mean it's going to sell after the initial hoopla dies down.
    I just don't know why anyone who is unhappy with Subaru taking out the LSD gets so blasted for that opinion. It's not just me that thinks that way either.
    Here is a link with pics of the new 2008 Subie on a car lot.
    Enjoy :)

    http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6355041/the-general-forum/new-wrxs-on-the-lot/in- dex.html
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