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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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Comments

  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Yup, it is me in Nasioc. I even mistakenly started a thread on this, before it was locked. :blush:
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Also, I think Subaru should have called it the S-GT, and not the WRX, like they do in Japan. The reason being the "WRX" label carries certain "expectations" that no longer are true for this model and its new role within the Subaru lineup.

    I completely agree. I would have been perfectly okay with S-GT, considering the expectations one has from a WRX. This car seems to be attempting to snag a different clientele.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    I'm sure VDC+open diff cost more and they waited until they felt enough pressure from the market to choose safety over cost. They de-cheapened it and made it safer.

    I got to call you out on this one. Yes, they switched the LSD for a VDC. But to state that the VDC, which is driven through sensors that are ALREADY present in a car like a WRX and software/firmware (fundamentally intended to brake individual wheels when speed differences are sensed or cut engine power when needed), "costs more" than an actual piece of equipment like an LSD, is simply stretching your already colorful imagination to the next level. ;) :D

    Just to put this in perspective, the $16K Impreza 2.5i comes with this "costly" feature that is also present in the LSD-less WRX.

    Also, the Legacy GT Spec-B, comes with a VDC but HAS NOT excluded the LSD in the rear, like the WRX did. ;) ;) ;)

    So when somebody says Subaru did some serious elimination of equipment to be within a cost threshold (including eliminating the 4-pot/2-pot brakes from the prior generation and going back to small rotors and 2-pot/1-pot from several years ago), they would not be far off the mark.

    But the point that a VDC type of situation is "safer" for bad drivers is dead true. Plus the fact that $10K Kias and $9K Chevy Aveos will now come with VDC, due to governmental mandates, makes this an option that Subaru has to provide. The interior has been re-engineered and that is a biggie for sure but has this new version gone far enough for a full re-design of the REX ? I doubt it.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    "Just to put this in perspective, the $16K Impreza 2.5i comes with this "costly" feature that is also present in the LSD-less WRX."

    Joe Spitz's site (http://www.cars101.com/subaru/impreza/wrxsti2008.html#prices) and that pricing chart on NASIOC both say that the $16-$17k base Imprezas do NOT come with VDC. I was expecting it to be standard throughout the lineup, but apparently it starts with the more expensive "Premium" trims. :confuse:

    p.s. Anyone interested in seeing the invoice prices for the new Impreza... they can be found at the link above. Not much spread between invoice and MSRP, means to me Subaru's really gonna push hard to have fewer incentives.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,550
    means to me Subaru's really gonna push hard to have fewer incentives.

    Good luck with that. Interest rates are to stay for looong time - however, the current table is not as generous esp. for 48 and 60 month deals. Cash back may be curbed for some models, but that will depend on how well they sell.

    I also suspect that those prices already include a $500-750 cushion "just in case" it's needed quickly (if not - better for them). In today's market consumers are conditioned not to even consider "regular" cars without some kind of incentive, so a smart manufacturer would already include it in their list price.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    That's true about the $17K version of the 2.5i. But the $18K version of the 2.5i with a boat load of other features, has the VDC packaged within it. For around a 1000 bucks, you are getting a number of features, including the 6-CD changer, the All weather package (heated outside mirrors, dual setting heated seats, windshield wiper deicer), the Aero package etc and has VDC put on top of it....this essentially demonstrates how much a feature like the VDC costs the manufacturer, as opposed to equipment like the LSD. ;)

    I think a feature like the VDC should have been across the board, since it costs very little additional money, due to the sensors involved in making it work, being already present in all the Imprezas.

    Maybe they want to keep the $17K version as a loss leader (with very few actually made) and then push the people onto the higher trim that costs a grand more but come with a whole lot more value. Taking a leaf from the way Lexus promotes a low-priced ES350, with even the leather as optional....while the fact of the matter is, not a single ES350 imported into the US, comes without leather. :blush:
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 685
    Note omission of the semi closed deck block! Could this be correct? (turbo and normally aspirated blocks the same???) :sick:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I got to call you out on this one....VDC, which is driven through sensors that are ALREADY present in a car like a WRX

    Not at all. That is so wrong it's not even funny.

    VDC takes as inputs:

    * steering angle sensor (new)
    * yaw velocity sensor (also new)
    * lateral acceleration sensor (yep, new as well)
    * 4 wheel speed sensors (OK, from the ABS, not new)
    * brake pressure sensor (new)

    4 out of 5 of the inputs to the VDC system require new sensors! You are 80% wrong! :P

    this essentially demonstrates how much a feature like the VDC costs the manufacturer

    I disagree. Prices are not based on production costs, they are based on what the market will bear. The package is a bargain, but the bean counters can count on things like economies of scale to get their costs down.

    For around a 1000 bucks

    $1500, actually.

    :shades:
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    I disagree. Prices are not based on production costs, they are based on what the market will bear. The package is a bargain, but the bean counters can count on things like economies of scale to get their costs down.


    This is getting funnier by the minute. So prices don't use production costs as a basis ? :sick:

    Prices are certainly based on what the production costs are....I work for a Fortune 50 firm, who is into quite a bit of manufacturing, worldwide. ;) Companies then apply a certain margin over their costs. What the margin is, is dependent on what the market will bear.

    Also, when you started tallying sensors, your "4-wheel speed sensors" was neat....there are 4 separate sensors there, which you clubbed into one. :P Also, do you really think that the Steering angle sensor is missing in the WRX ? :confuse: What then is the variable boost response based on ? Either way, VDC is a feature that is now becoming available in the $17K 2.5i to $10K Kias...good for the public (specifically the ones who are still learning to drive and need a sudden throttling back of engine power and wheel braking to bring them back in line !) but bad when they quietly drop the LSD that the prior version came in, and as an alternative, provide this "expensive" option. :P

    Either way, I am waiting for the STI, which I am told was designed by a team different from the one which designed the WRX. Thank goodness !
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $1500 per unit easily covers their production costs for the options.

    MSRP is set according to what the market will tolerate, though, often with profit margins that are mind-boggling.

    This is why the aftermarket can supply a 7" DVD Navigation system for $999 while manufacturers charge $2000-2200, often for outdated, generation-old stuff. I'll take a guess that production costs are in the $400-500 range.

    4 wheel speed sensors were grouped together in my source PDF from FHI, which I cut/pasted from.

    You're hiding behind that detail, but the fact is you were very, very wrong. Admit it. No amount of emotorcons will hide that. :P

    All along you've been screaming that VDC was just a matter of flicking a switch to turn it on. That's not true at all. I proved it.

    You were wrong. Time to own up!

    Steering angle sensos is indeed missing in the current WRX. Of course it is. The steering is a mechanical linkage. Without VDC there's no need to know the intended steering path of the driver, because the car has no mechanism to attempt to correct deviations from the driver's intentions.

    Why would a car without VDC need a steering angle sensor? Think about it. It couldn't do anything with that information even if it did collect it. We don't steer-by-wire.

    Variable boost is based on engine speeds.

    VDC is a feature that is now becoming available in the $17K 2.5i

    Reading is comprehension. The 2.5i does not have VDC.

    The Premium model, which does have VDC, doesn't cost $17k.

    You find my comments "funnier by the minute".

    You just got schooled in VDC. You may be too proud to admit it, but everyone here can read your posts, and mine, and come to their own conclusions.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    How are they trying to compensate? Here is when the whole Camry comes in picture. - and it is not so irrelevant, as one may imagine. Hear me on this: WRX goes mainstream - i.e. trying to attract crowd sensitive to "fluff factor". Those people would touch old WRX because its high because road noise, not so nice interior, boy-racer image, but still want strong horsepower (number is very important to them) and price below 30K. Q: What do these people buy today? A: Six cylinder versions of Camry, Accord or Altima.

    I don't see the Accord/Altima/Camry as a competitor on a few levels:

    Size- The Accord/Altima/Camary is LARGER than the Legacy which is larger than the Impreza

    AWD- None of those have AWD available

    Handling/"Feel"- None of those except maybe the Altima have an ounce of driving feel, this is completely subjective so feel free to disregard this factor.

    As for the "lessening of the AWD System" I don't buy that, to the NORMAL USER OF THE CAR and for the use of the car ON-ROAD, meaning on legal roads here in the US, the VDC will provide a significantly better AWD system than a Non-VDC car with AWD. If you bring up the Track/HPDE/Race, that's not relevent due to the fact that those are not on-road situations, situations where none of the usual things apply, especially your warranty....

    -mike
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Juice, not to keep on beating on a dead horse, but the VDC is an el-cheapo addition, when a piece of real equipment that would have costed Subaru a significant amount of money, like the rear LSD, was deleted.

    Since it is el-cheapo, Subaru could literally offer the feature across the line. Maybe not offer it in the $17K 2.5i (which being a stripped loss-leader - it does not even come with 4-wheel discs or alloys - would not make them any money as it stands, let alone with/without VDC, and dropping VDC and other features may be to prod buyers to spend the additional $1K for the way better equipped model upstream) but the $18K 2.5i premium (which comes with a boat load of additional features to justify this $1K increase, with the VDC just thrown in as a "marketing sweetener"). For people who have not learned to drive well and are prone to commiting blunders on the road, the VDC may be a true boon but in no way shape or form, is this a performance feature, like an LSD - which a badge like the "WRX" deserves.

    Let us leave it at that and not allow our Subaru blinkers to continue to blind us. We let such a gaffe through and reward mediocrity in an iconic product like the WRX, and they will continue to delete even more stuff as time goes on; but put them on the mat now and they will think twice about doing such things in the future. Let us not continue to lipstick this hog.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,550
    It all depends if it sells. If Juice's prophecies of big sellouts materialize, it won't matter what you and I think, but if for some reason people shy away from the reborn legend that would be a sufficient signal for them. Lets just hope they survive until they get it right, which will probably be around 2010-2011 MY.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Juice, not to keep on beating on a dead horse, but the VDC is an el-cheapo addition, when a piece of real equipment that would have costed Subaru a significant amount of money, like the rear LSD, was deleted.

    It's not el-cheapo. On top of it, tell AMG that TCS is "cheapo". That's what they use in the AMGs, no LSDs in those machines, which are the "performance" versions of their cars.... Of course they don't have MTs either for that matter.

    -mike
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    In case of the AMG products, it is the overall package that makes it what it is. A single feature among a hundred other attributes, does not define an AMG product.

    You quoted the Type-R a little while back. The key differentiator of the Type-R from its near identical twin, the GSR, is the LSD that comes with it, which is denied to the GSR. It is what enables the Type-R to be a corner carver, in addition to its highly tuned suspension, lightened body and 195HP hand-finished engine, while its 170hp brother, the GSR, with near identical engine and suspension, is considered as a good handling product but definitely not a standout in the market.

    I guess the 08 REX is what it is. Making a lot of noise is not going to change its feature set for this model year. People who like it, will buy it. Hopefully Subaru will take notice and rectify its shortcomings in the following model year. But in my estimation, they completely blew the new product launch momentum, due to its underwhelming nature....lost opportunity !
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    On the Type R, thanks for proving my point... :)

    The Type R was the top model, just like the STi.

    If you wanted to get the absolute best you had to step up and pony up the $$$.

    Subaru has taken this playbook from BMW, Acura, and just about every other car manufacturer out there. Which is that if you want all the bells and whistles, then you have to get the top trim.

    Why aren't you guys screaming that the non-evo versions of the lancer don't have AWD? That's a BIGGIE, as opposed to the LSD issue!

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    How do you know all the sensors I listed are "el-cheapo"? You don't know that. Prove it. I bet you're wrong. You've been wrong about many other things recently (again in your most recent post, the cost difference is $1500 not $1000).

    The rear differential Subaru uses has the same case whether it's limited slip or not. These aren't fancy lockers or Torsens, just your run of the mill viscous limited slips. Nothing fancy. From the outside you can't even tell an open and a limited-slip apart on a Subie. Did you know that?

    You keep saying it's "expensive" yet it's probably just some very minor internal differences. Look up part numbers and costs if you're that passionate about how expensive they are.

    The ITR had a Helical LSD on the front axle where it matters. Weight shifts back when you accelerate, so a rear one matters much less. The front axle is unloaded and more likely to slip. On top of all that, Acura used a Helical LSD, not a viscous LSD.

    paisan will know more about this, but in an autocross a Subaru will spin it's inside front tire (weight shifts back and away from that single tire) coming out of a hard turn. Not a rear tire, the front! A rear viscous LSD helps a bit in the snow but makes no difference whatsoever on the track.

    If we go to the Miata world, you see the same thing. Mazda used a viscous LSD from 90-93, but they weren't really doing much on the track, so they switched to a Torsen diff for later years.

    The Torsen was so much better on the track that owners of 90-93 models swapped out the rather useless viscous LSDs for later Torsen ones since they bolted right in. They spend $900 plus a day or so of labor just to get rid of the one thing you're whining for.

    Viscous is actually better than Torsen in the snow, because a Torsen needs some traction on both sides else it'll act like an open diff. But on a track, a Torsen is much better. It actively sends power to the side that has more traction.

    So to summarize:

    * Viscous LSD is useless on the track
    * It does help one axle in the snow
    * VDC helps two axles in the snow
    * No visible difference from an open diff
    * Acura/Mazda used other, more effective diff types for track
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Do you guys remember the early WRXs had that issue with the ABS where the pedal would sink to the floor on bumpy roads? It affected Hutch, among others here.

    I bet the reason they ditched the rear LSD had to do with this.

    ABS and the LSD clashed because one is mechanical and the other has electronic controls, but they didn't communicate with each other. On bumpy roads they'd fight each other and the driver ended up losing.

    One advantage VDC has over a viscous LSD is that is does communicate with the ABS, in fact that's one of the critical inputs used to determine how and when to use the VDC. They work together, rather that fighting each other.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    As a follow-up last weekend at the track, Adam was running his Toyota X-Runner at the track. At the hairpin he was spinning the inside wheel, and it has a viscous LSD. My guess is that most Viscous LSDs do not in fact give you the lockup you would think.

    -mike
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    The early WRX's issue with ABS was due to the Viscous CENTER diff in the manual WRXs....the EATs (WRX or otherwise) or the STI, never had this problem. In fact for the WRXs they should have ditched the viscous center diff a long time back and gone to a mechanical center diff setup like the STI (and EAT REXs). Just to cut through all the to-and-fro, the reason why they "ditched" or as I would say "quietly dropped hoping nobody would notice", the rear LSD, is due to cost...plain and simple. Just like going back to 2-pot/1-pot 02 calipers in the 08 REX, with small brake discs (not GT discs as all the hoopla stated earlier)....cost cutting again !

    A car without LSD (viscous or not) is cheaper than a car with LSD....as anybody without blinkers would point out. I bet next year when they come out with a viscous LSD for the 09 WRX, Juice will forget all his current arguments and mention how much of additional value the 09 WRX is providing....with an LSD in the rear too ! :P

    Yup, the VDC does communicate with the ABS. Which is why the Spec-B comes with both VDC AND rear LSD (torsen). In case of the WRX, they did some serious cost cutting in the 08 by eliminating equipment (less value for the consumer, more money for the manufacturer when the pricing does not go down) that came in the outgoing model, however creatively we wish to spin it. I will wager that the new 2008 will hit the lots with incentives.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    To quote from the 08 REX introduction in Canada:

    Every 2008 Impreza now features quick-responding steering adapted from the WRX performance model, with 2.8 turns lock-to-lock and a tight 11.8 metre (34.8 foot) turning circle.

    That means every 08 Impreza (WRX and 2.5i) will have the same steering rack with 2.8 turns lock-to-lock (slightly slower than the 2.7 turns in the 06/07 WRX model while faster than the 3.0 turns in the 06/07 2.5i model). The steering difference is one additional advantage that the WRX had over the lesser Imprezas till date, which has now gone away.

    So if one were to put in a take-off WRX front suspension (typically sold in places like nabisco for $300 or so) and WRX sway bars in the 2.5i model, what is the compelling advantage that a VDC equipped stick WRX, holds over a VDC equipped, several 1000$ cheaper, stick 2.5i (both without LSD) ?? A bit more additional power from the Turbo engine which REQUIRES premium fuel ?

    I say this is one more reason to ditch the 08 WRX and go straight towards the equally spacious and identically "refined" 08 2.5i, and save a serious chunk of money.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The same could have been said about the 02 WRX over the 01 2.5RS

    A few more HP from the Turbo engine? C'mon guy, we are talking apples and cucumbers here. If you think the difference is "tiny" between a turbo ~230hp v. 170hp NA engine, then there is no point in continueing the arguement.

    In case of the WRX, they did some serious cost cutting in the 08 by eliminating equipment (less value for the consumer, more money for the manufacturer when the pricing does not go down) that came in the outgoing model, however creatively we wish to spin it. I will wager that the new 2008 will hit the lots with incentives.

    How about the addition of a lot of equipment to the vehicle that make it more user-friendly? I guess that is worth nothing. What they did was survey what most of their consumers who are non-racers (since true racers will get the STi) and then decided to figure out how to keep it at a static price point while adding in things like VDC, GPS, upgraded interior, etc. Something has to give to get those items. You don't get something for nothing.

    My final comments on this subject....

    2.5i = base model trim
    WRX = mid-line trim
    STi = top end trim

    As such, the 2.5i will get the lowest HP and least features, the WRX being the middle will get a med amount, and the STi being the top end will get all the bells and whistles.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Hmm I'll have to swing by the port of elizabeth on Monday while at work and see if any have hit the East Coast yet.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    Mike, I believe Baltimore is the east coast port of entry for Subarus.

    I just checked FitzMall, and their Gaithersburg store has an '08 2.5i Premium 4EAT listed as being in stock, with a number of other '08s "coming soon."

    Bob
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,550
    That one particular grill picture (right column second from top)- that's Sebring with Subaru logo. Or scaled down Pacifica. Yuck.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,550
    Just spied - I'm no sedan buyer myself, but I think it's gonna kill WRX on the looks. If Mitsu comes with better specs and/or pricing, we will see quick $2000 cashback on Juice's and Mike's darling. ;) - which of course could make me actually buy it.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Raliart = 2wd IIRC, if so then it's not a competitor for even the most stripped down Subaru which has AWD....

    -mike
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    I believe the base lancers were supposed to be 2wd but the Ralliart was set to be a direct competitor to the WRX, with AWD and the works. If true, then that should roil the waters a bit.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    Huh. Maybe I'm weird, but I actually think the Steel Silver on Silver Spark two-tone of the OB Sport looks sharp in a funky sorta way. I didn't expect to like it.
This discussion has been closed.