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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    A3, though? We're talking about a FWD hatch from a luxury manufacturer. A premium hatch, an oxymoron in the USA.

    They sell in such tiny numbers as to be almost insignificant in the overall market. If they dropped it noone would notice (VW would just sell more GTIs).

    R32 is DSG, true, forgot about that.

    WRX is unique in offering AWD plus a true manual trans at this price level.

    So I guess it *has* to be cross shopped with cars with different powertrains. LOL :D

    Still, Camry? Accord? I just don't see it.

    Put it this way - if you end up buying one of those, you weren't truly serious about buying a performance car. thinking about it, maybe, but not seriously.

    People may want a hot hatch, bang for the buck, or practical performance. All these paths would still lead you to a WRX on your short list.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    I think here is where our communication breaks - WRX is not a performance car, IMHO (STI is). It is fast, but it's not really performance. So, as such it is legitimate to cross-shop it with more "mushy" cars, as long as their price and basic performance figures match - and there are a few.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I see it as a sliding scale.

    To me, the WRX is closer to the STI than it is to the Camry. Especially if you tune it (springs, sways, tires, maybe a chip).

    My litmus test it simple - would it be as fun as my Miata? The WRX is quicker and I could use it all seasons. It would pass that test.

    Camry would fail. If I won a free Camry in a contest, I would give it to my wife. Yes, I would still drive a 14 year old Miata and give my wife the brand new car I got for free.

    Toyota makes great cars - I own a Sienna! Don't get me wrong. Wonderful vehicles for passengers to be in comfort. Spacious, quiet, we love our van.

    I just don't want to drive it when I don't need to, it's just no fun at all.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    Well I know it's semantics, but fun yes, performance - not really. WRX makes a relatively short leap to STI in certain aspects, but pricewise, extra 5-8 grand is whole lot of mullah (assuming new STI will a little short of 35K on the sticker).

    And Camry is probably worst example. It was probably mentioned as one of those extreme figurative speach points rather than real. However, new Altima Coupe or Accord are more relevant

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I can actually see the Altima coupe being comparable. Nissan made the new one shorter, lighter, and on a shorter wheelbase than the sedan.

    Is Nissan offering a manual on that one, or is it CVT only?

    The Accord just seems so....big. Bigger than a Legacy, even. It only has price in common with the WRX.
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 679
    This discussion is missing another possible purchaser: The buyer who was buying a Legacy GT wagon. The interior size is about the same as is the powertrain and the price is right. Dropping the GT wagon may not matter with the same car available with a slanted rear hatch. If the turbo lag is less than on the older GT, so much the better.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    True - perhaps TSX, which could be had for below 30K and is also aimed at younger people is more. Of course, it's different too, but again I see it as a "trade-off" game within similar price. Making WRX larger inside and more civilized (and more expensive) brings it much closer to TSX than before. Faster, but no leather. Smaller, but faster. Etc.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    That's me, exactly. Lack of sunroof and leather is actually a big turnoff for me. Regarding size, I have to see it to believe that smaller outside will still get me similar inside.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, TSX is closer than the Accord, though actually the TSX is almost exactly the same size as the Legacy, and both are sedan only.

    I guess the new WRX is close in size to this Legacy, and the next Legacy will likely grow, so we probably will see some cross shopping.

    It's funny, when the 2002 came out, there was a guy shopping a WRX vs. an Isuzu Vehicross. Seriously.

    I guess seeing Accord, Camry should not surprise me.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,657
    I sort of seeing the new WRX as going after the original Legacy GT customer. I'm talking about the GT w/o leather, moonroof, which Subaru dropped a few years if you recall.

    Also, I think Subaru should have called it the S-GT, and not the WRX, like they do in Japan. The reason being the "WRX" label carries certain "expectations" that no longer are true for this model and its new role within the Subaru lineup. I'm convinced that is part of all the negative hoopla we see here and elsewhere.

    I also hope they offer an STI-lite, which falls in between the new WRX and the full-bore STI, that will address all those wanting a WRX, but are disappointed with this model. Keep the STI wide body flares and taut suspension. Give it 225/45x17 tires and the Legacy GT power rating.

    Bob
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Yup, it is me in Nasioc. I even mistakenly started a thread on this, before it was locked. :blush:
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Also, I think Subaru should have called it the S-GT, and not the WRX, like they do in Japan. The reason being the "WRX" label carries certain "expectations" that no longer are true for this model and its new role within the Subaru lineup.

    I completely agree. I would have been perfectly okay with S-GT, considering the expectations one has from a WRX. This car seems to be attempting to snag a different clientele.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    I'm sure VDC+open diff cost more and they waited until they felt enough pressure from the market to choose safety over cost. They de-cheapened it and made it safer.

    I got to call you out on this one. Yes, they switched the LSD for a VDC. But to state that the VDC, which is driven through sensors that are ALREADY present in a car like a WRX and software/firmware (fundamentally intended to brake individual wheels when speed differences are sensed or cut engine power when needed), "costs more" than an actual piece of equipment like an LSD, is simply stretching your already colorful imagination to the next level. ;) :D

    Just to put this in perspective, the $16K Impreza 2.5i comes with this "costly" feature that is also present in the LSD-less WRX.

    Also, the Legacy GT Spec-B, comes with a VDC but HAS NOT excluded the LSD in the rear, like the WRX did. ;) ;) ;)

    So when somebody says Subaru did some serious elimination of equipment to be within a cost threshold (including eliminating the 4-pot/2-pot brakes from the prior generation and going back to small rotors and 2-pot/1-pot from several years ago), they would not be far off the mark.

    But the point that a VDC type of situation is "safer" for bad drivers is dead true. Plus the fact that $10K Kias and $9K Chevy Aveos will now come with VDC, due to governmental mandates, makes this an option that Subaru has to provide. The interior has been re-engineered and that is a biggie for sure but has this new version gone far enough for a full re-design of the REX ? I doubt it.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    "Just to put this in perspective, the $16K Impreza 2.5i comes with this "costly" feature that is also present in the LSD-less WRX."

    Joe Spitz's site (http://www.cars101.com/subaru/impreza/wrxsti2008.html#prices) and that pricing chart on NASIOC both say that the $16-$17k base Imprezas do NOT come with VDC. I was expecting it to be standard throughout the lineup, but apparently it starts with the more expensive "Premium" trims. :confuse:

    p.s. Anyone interested in seeing the invoice prices for the new Impreza... they can be found at the link above. Not much spread between invoice and MSRP, means to me Subaru's really gonna push hard to have fewer incentives.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    means to me Subaru's really gonna push hard to have fewer incentives.

    Good luck with that. Interest rates are to stay for looong time - however, the current table is not as generous esp. for 48 and 60 month deals. Cash back may be curbed for some models, but that will depend on how well they sell.

    I also suspect that those prices already include a $500-750 cushion "just in case" it's needed quickly (if not - better for them). In today's market consumers are conditioned not to even consider "regular" cars without some kind of incentive, so a smart manufacturer would already include it in their list price.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    That's true about the $17K version of the 2.5i. But the $18K version of the 2.5i with a boat load of other features, has the VDC packaged within it. For around a 1000 bucks, you are getting a number of features, including the 6-CD changer, the All weather package (heated outside mirrors, dual setting heated seats, windshield wiper deicer), the Aero package etc and has VDC put on top of it....this essentially demonstrates how much a feature like the VDC costs the manufacturer, as opposed to equipment like the LSD. ;)

    I think a feature like the VDC should have been across the board, since it costs very little additional money, due to the sensors involved in making it work, being already present in all the Imprezas.

    Maybe they want to keep the $17K version as a loss leader (with very few actually made) and then push the people onto the higher trim that costs a grand more but come with a whole lot more value. Taking a leaf from the way Lexus promotes a low-priced ES350, with even the leather as optional....while the fact of the matter is, not a single ES350 imported into the US, comes without leather. :blush:
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 679
    Note omission of the semi closed deck block! Could this be correct? (turbo and normally aspirated blocks the same???) :sick:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I got to call you out on this one....VDC, which is driven through sensors that are ALREADY present in a car like a WRX

    Not at all. That is so wrong it's not even funny.

    VDC takes as inputs:

    * steering angle sensor (new)
    * yaw velocity sensor (also new)
    * lateral acceleration sensor (yep, new as well)
    * 4 wheel speed sensors (OK, from the ABS, not new)
    * brake pressure sensor (new)

    4 out of 5 of the inputs to the VDC system require new sensors! You are 80% wrong! :P

    this essentially demonstrates how much a feature like the VDC costs the manufacturer

    I disagree. Prices are not based on production costs, they are based on what the market will bear. The package is a bargain, but the bean counters can count on things like economies of scale to get their costs down.

    For around a 1000 bucks

    $1500, actually.

    :shades:
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    I disagree. Prices are not based on production costs, they are based on what the market will bear. The package is a bargain, but the bean counters can count on things like economies of scale to get their costs down.


    This is getting funnier by the minute. So prices don't use production costs as a basis ? :sick:

    Prices are certainly based on what the production costs are....I work for a Fortune 50 firm, who is into quite a bit of manufacturing, worldwide. ;) Companies then apply a certain margin over their costs. What the margin is, is dependent on what the market will bear.

    Also, when you started tallying sensors, your "4-wheel speed sensors" was neat....there are 4 separate sensors there, which you clubbed into one. :P Also, do you really think that the Steering angle sensor is missing in the WRX ? :confuse: What then is the variable boost response based on ? Either way, VDC is a feature that is now becoming available in the $17K 2.5i to $10K Kias...good for the public (specifically the ones who are still learning to drive and need a sudden throttling back of engine power and wheel braking to bring them back in line !) but bad when they quietly drop the LSD that the prior version came in, and as an alternative, provide this "expensive" option. :P

    Either way, I am waiting for the STI, which I am told was designed by a team different from the one which designed the WRX. Thank goodness !
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    $1500 per unit easily covers their production costs for the options.

    MSRP is set according to what the market will tolerate, though, often with profit margins that are mind-boggling.

    This is why the aftermarket can supply a 7" DVD Navigation system for $999 while manufacturers charge $2000-2200, often for outdated, generation-old stuff. I'll take a guess that production costs are in the $400-500 range.

    4 wheel speed sensors were grouped together in my source PDF from FHI, which I cut/pasted from.

    You're hiding behind that detail, but the fact is you were very, very wrong. Admit it. No amount of emotorcons will hide that. :P

    All along you've been screaming that VDC was just a matter of flicking a switch to turn it on. That's not true at all. I proved it.

    You were wrong. Time to own up!

    Steering angle sensos is indeed missing in the current WRX. Of course it is. The steering is a mechanical linkage. Without VDC there's no need to know the intended steering path of the driver, because the car has no mechanism to attempt to correct deviations from the driver's intentions.

    Why would a car without VDC need a steering angle sensor? Think about it. It couldn't do anything with that information even if it did collect it. We don't steer-by-wire.

    Variable boost is based on engine speeds.

    VDC is a feature that is now becoming available in the $17K 2.5i

    Reading is comprehension. The 2.5i does not have VDC.

    The Premium model, which does have VDC, doesn't cost $17k.

    You find my comments "funnier by the minute".

    You just got schooled in VDC. You may be too proud to admit it, but everyone here can read your posts, and mine, and come to their own conclusions.
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