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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    To be honest if you really really are good at auto-x the LSD isn't going to hold you back, it'll force you to be a hair smoother. The VDC will also give you the equivalent of a front and rear LSD with slightly less effectiveness than a traditional LSD but you gain an advantage of having it in both front and rear, so in the end it'll be an overall wash if anything.

    I wouldn't let that solely stop you from getting it, but I haven't heard if there will be a traditional LSD in addition to the VDC so it could go either way.

    -mike
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    I wouldn't let that solely stop you from getting it, but I haven't heard if there will be a traditional LSD in addition to the VDC so it could go either way.

    I wish I was really really good at Auto-X :D
    But every bit helps out there. to quote a NER Member "You can't be the best, until you beat the best."
    I'm light years off from that. Solo 2 is all about smoothness and I have a lot of work to do on that aspect.
    The LSD is a big deal to me but we shall see what is official hopefully in 2 months or so. It's all teasers now. I still think Subaru will have to tweak that front end. The new Accord Coupe nose looks much better.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Follow the Subiesport link on nabisco's homepage, where they clearly state that the LSD is out on the 08. Now I am starting to wonder about the touted weight savings in the 08...by eliminating equipment that was available earlier ? :sick:

    Also, about the brakes, the WRX in the NY auto show certainly had SMALLER brake discs than the Legacy 3.0R parked beside it. I am assuming that the Legacy GT brakes are the same size as the 3.0R brakes. Unless they change the brakes in the production version, I would say that the brakes are definitely a downgrade from the 06/07 versions. I hear a lot of rumors of GT brakes in the 08 WRX....what is the source of this rumor ?
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    If the price point takes all other considerations, those cost savings can be really costly in the long run. It is not 2002, when there was NOTHING around even remotely resembling WRX. Today the competition is real and they better understand it. That "Legend reborn" slogan gets less and less credible. I just hope it won't turn into a bad joke :( .

    Don't you just hate it - bean counters taking over and making "adjustments" that "nobody will notice" - which of course never works, cause guess what - everybody notices. Before it even hits the floor, the discussion turns into what's missing. Looks like GM left more trace behind than we would like to admit, didn't they?

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • volkovvolkov Posts: 1,302
    OOOH, 328Xi Touring...that's a nice choice.
    Just heard from a construction friend that we may see a BMW dealership here in the next two years. Surprisingly it made my wife's eyes light up too. Never knwew she liked BMW's! Good news for me who's getting tired of driving her car when she has to pick up the boys. It's a double yellow Beetle I bought her for our anniversary 5 years ago. Great on gas, but a serious chick car that I drive 2 days a week on average. Given it was an anniversary present she loved, it has to be replaced with something cooler in her world. Up to now nothing has come close. MMM, hard top Bimmer convertible, wouldn't mind having to drive that to work on off days.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    OOOH, 328Xi Touring...that's a nice choice.
    Just heard from a construction friend that we may see a BMW dealership here in the next two years. Surprisingly it made my wife's eyes light up too. Never knew she liked BMW's! Good news for me who's getting tired of driving her car when she has to pick up the boys. It's a double yellow Beetle I bought her for our anniversary 5 years ago. Great on gas, but a serious chick car that I drive 2 days a week on average. Given it was an anniversary present she loved, it has to be replaced with something cooler in her world. Up to now nothing has come close. MMM, hard top Bimmer convertible, wouldn't mind having to drive that to work on off days.


    Hi volkov, yeah the wagon is a great looking BMW I spec'd one out on Edmunds and the price for TMV was $35,427
    Just the sport package nothing else. But not an Xi either. I don't think I'd need an xi and have no real knowledge of BMW's system. But when a BMW breaks it's costly if out of warranty. The BMW's are great cars but very pricey to buy. Subaru has pulled a few bonehead mistakes, smaller brakes no LSD and who knows what else. maybe they made shortcuts to the quality of materials in their AWD system?!
    I've driven quite a few BMW's and I just love the 4 door hatchback which will never be available in the US. Drop a 135i turbo 6 into it and it would scream out for my money but no chance and the one I drove here was a 4 cyl. Still a great car. Subaru needs to figure out where it's headed.
    BMW is great if only it was a bit less $$$$.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Follow the Subiesport link on nabisco's homepage, where they clearly state that the LSD is out on the 08. Now I am starting to wonder about the touted weight savings in the 08...by eliminating equipment that was available earlier ?

    It sounds like it and they most likely have downgraded the brakes as well. Subaru has lost the plot and they need to understand they are a niche company with loyal owners. They are not Honda or Toyota. But they want to be. Never gonna happen!
    So why not make great cars for those who love Subaru's?
    The WRX has been dumbed down to make the STI look really a lot better but reality is it's probably going to lose out to the EVO in every way except reliability and customer service! :sick:
    Why cheapen the car? I know the price point is important and while BMW owners don't seem to mind a $32K price point for a Geo Metro sized car. The WRX is supposed to be the class leader. But the STI will throw the old model brakes on the STI and put the LSD back in and voila! $7k more!
    More passenger space less cargo space. I'm not really buying into the whole deal here. I want a LSD as at least an available option. i don't need or want an EVO or an STI.
    But de-contenting the WRX is a dimwitted move and Subaru will have to correct it. For $35K I'll buy a BMW and sacrifice what will amount to a 2006 WRX labeled as an STI for $35K! :mad:
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    You guys are funny. All bench racers out there. As I stated above I'll challenge anyone out there to an Auto-x or HPDE event with an LSD Equipped car w/4-pot FHI brakes v. VDC equipped car w/LGT Brakes, and chances are I'll beat yah with the VDC/LGT Brake equipped car. Why? Because I'm a better driver, plain and simple.

    You guys sound like the guys who come out to race at the track and lose but then whine all night at the bar... "The Sun was in my eyes, the tire pressures weren't set properly, it rained 3 drops, there was dirt on the track...etc. etc.!!!!!"

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Also anyone who knows anything about brakes knows that the #1 thing that is important is the rotor size. The LGT rotor size is larger than the FHI Rotor size and will clearly pull more heat to it.

    As for VDC v. LSD, this is not considered decontenting in my book, so let's all get off our high horses and take a look at the facts.

    IIRC F-1 cars use a 1-pot brake setup, I guess they are slumming it too since they don't have 16-pot brakes.

    -mike :mad: :mad:
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Maybe you missed this portion of my post ;) above about the brakes in the new WRX:

    ================
    Also, about the brakes, the WRX in the NY auto show certainly had SMALLER brake discs than the Legacy 3.0R parked beside it. I am assuming that the Legacy GT brakes are the same size as the 3.0R brakes. Unless they change the brakes in the production version, I would say that the brakes are definitely a downgrade from the 06/07 versions (and probably the brakes in the pre-06 WRX). I hear a lot of rumors of GT brakes in the 08 WRX....what is the source of this rumor ?
    =================

    Just to reiterate, the brake rotors are SMALLER than the GT brake rotors and probably are the same as the 02-07 WRX and the pistons are a downgrade from the 4-pot/2-pot 06/07 WRX and probably have reverted back to the 2-pot/1-pot 02-05 WRX.....NOT the GT brakes at all, based on what was clearly observable in the NY auto show.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Paisan said: You guys are funny. All bench racers out there. As I stated above I'll challenge anyone out there to an Auto-x or HPDE event with an LSD Equipped car w/4-pot FHI brakes v. VDC equipped car w/LGT Brakes, and chances are I'll beat yah with the VDC/LGT Brake equipped car. Why? Because I'm a better driver, plain and simple.

    SteveCebu says: Sorry I'm not a bench racer and while you very wellmight be a better driver as you have more experience which is fine I am hardly a bench racer. I took the novice championship in 2000, yeah 7 years ago. I just don't have a lot of free time I haven't even been in the US for over 4 years working overseas! So you might be a better driver. We had some National Champions from our region and they could all drive better than I could. Mot of them had this as a full time hobby and they were fortunate to have weekends off. I had 3 kids and worked 70 hours a week!

    Paisan said: You guys sound like the guys who come out to race at the track and lose but then whine all night at the bar... "The Sun was in my eyes, the tire pressures weren't set properly, it rained 3 drops, there was dirt on the track...etc. etc.!!!!!"

    SteveCebu says: I really take offense at that remark. One I don't race Auto-x is not racing but a timed trial event. Also talk is cheap. Anyone can claim anything on the Internet.
    I was taught that you first have to "fix the nut behind the wheel" I always tried to improve my skills which takes time and a little talent. Time was hard to come by.
    So don't lump me into the whinging category.
    We are talking about a $25K car and Subaru has removed components to keep the price point the same. They made some changes some good, some bad. No LSD BAD, ugly nose, bad, smaller brakes bad. More cabin room good, same exact drivetrain, kinda bad no improvements there.
    It's all subjective. But after looking at the new EVO X I'm thinking Subaru should hire those guys and fire their designers.
    Maybe you can drive the new WRX like Makinen. Good on you. But it's still less car for the same money and the looks are lacking. I'm really hoping for a rabbit to pop out of subaru's hat.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I was at the NY Auto show as well, guess what? They were the same size. Did you eyeball them or did you measure them? My brake suppliers are already sending me rotor info for the 08 WRX and guess what? Part # is the same as the LGT Rotor.....

    I believe you may have been mistaken due to the WRX wearing 17" rims and the 3.0R and Spec B wearing 18" rims.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Sorry, auto-x is racing, a timed event is still racing, Time Trials, Auto-x, Wheel to Wheel, all racing.

    For the general buying public, guess what? VDC will bring in more buyers than putting a simple LSD to keep the few racing/performance affciandos happy.

    I never said you were a bench racer, I said you sound like them when you whine that there is no LSD. It just means you'll have to improve your own skills, as you said "fix the nut behind the wheel" to overcome it.

    Subaru is in the business to sell cars, they made a decision that the few folks who actually race (auto-x, road race, TT, etc.) are such a small percent of people out there, and those people who really need the edge in racing who have already fixed the nut behind the wheel, will spring for the extra $ to put in a true LSD, etc. Besides, anyone who would really be considering racing an Impreza would likely be using the STi version of it, which will likely have the Front and Rear LSDs.

    Subaru is in the business to sell cars, and they'll sell more cars with it having VDC than if it has an LSD. It will also help folks who buy WRXs due to the fact that the VDC will help the 18-21 year old kids who's parents buy them a WRX that go out and attempt to wrap themselves around trees, to not do that, a LSD is not going to help as much as VDC for those folks, and the less kids wrapped around trees means your insurance rates will be lower.

    Even if they lose you and a few other folks who feel it's necessary for a car that is not even the top of the line Impreza to have a LSD, they will pickup more sales to normal folks who are sold on the traction control/on-road stability systems.

    The Impreza STi trim level will still be available for those folks who MUST have the best in terms of on-track performance. Just as the Spec B, the top of the line trim of the Legacy line provides superior on-track performance over the standard Legacy GT trim level.

    -mike
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Subaru is in the business to sell cars, they made a decision that the few folks who actually race (Auto-x, road race, TT, etc.) are such a small percent of people out there, and those people who really need the edge in racing who have already fixed the nut behind the wheel, will spring for the extra $ to put in a true LSD, etc. Besides, anyone who would really be considering racing an Impreza would likely be using the STi version of it, which will likely have the Front and Rear LSDs.

    Well Mike, I guess where you are from everyone is rich and can afford the high end STI to play with what with it's $35K pricetag. LSD does help, and yeah you can always go aftermarket once the car is out of warranty. Lots of people run a WRX which is cheaper and the older model had a LSD, but it was removed, ok that's fine, it's a corporate decision.
    I'll still drive the car on a test drive but after looking at the Mitsu. I don't think it's going to even be a close contest with either the WRX nor the STI are going to match the new Mitsu's and even my wife was very impressed with the EVO X enough to consider us spending the extra money over what we initially wanted to spend. Yeah $36K but damn, it looks great from every angle and no screwing around with taking out this and that. I have no idea about performance on either until my butt is in the drivers seat but The Mitsu has made my list for sure. The wife does not like the look of the Subie at all and thinks the Honda Accord is much better looking. I agree with her. Subaru goofed on a lot of things, who knows maybe their reliability is next?
    If the Mitsu dealers aren't sleazy dogs like they were before I think they might be worth taking a chance on.
    Subaru has a LOT of competition compared to before. Edmunds was not wowed by the WRX on their drive either. I really like edmunds because what they write about in general about most cars reflects my own personal observations, regardless of the make.

    So have fun racing and all that (oh my insurance company didn't see timed trial events as racing so that's where that comment comes from. The SCCA also does not refer to Solo2 as racing. I don't have your vast experience as I only ran with SCCA and a much smaller local group, but they also claim that Solo2/Auto-X isn't racing) and I probably will when I get back to the US, but I don't want to debate personal opinions when neither of us have driven teh car and since you are already a 9/10's driver I'm sure you'll put record times on whatever it is that you buy. My wife and I are going to need all the help we can get. I'll take any legal advantage I can get. I think Audi said that. :)
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Just an FYI, I actually own a Subaru race car, and guess what? It's a 1994 Legacy Turbo. No LSDs in it. My driver who is my buddy, happens to be significantly faster than I in the car. Why do we race that car? Cause it was relatively inexpensive.

    On a side note, the fact that there is no LSD will/should be taken into consideration when SCCA or NASA or any sanctioning body classifies the new WRX, so don't worry you'll be covered in that respect.

    Back in 2000 insurance companies had no idea what Solo2/Auto-x was nor HPDEs which aren't even racing (no timing, instructor in vehicle) and in the past year or 2 we've seen a lot of insurance companies start to deny claims of cars wrecked in HPDEs and a few companies started to scan Auto-x results and cross reference them with their insurance records. Mitsu also was doing this to deny warranty claims as well in the past few years.

    Also I'm not planning on buying a WRX, I just picked up a LGT Wagon 5MT, the Imprezas were always a bit cramped for my larger frame :)

    I'm sure you'll love the EVO, it's a good car and many like it. Many also like the Subarus as well, but that's the beauty of this country we are all free to choose. Also being a capitalist at heart, SOA will get the smackdown if their car isn't what the public wants as they will flock to the Evos or whatever else there is to compete with it. :)

    -mike
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Back in 2000 insurance companies had no idea what Solo2/Auto-x was nor HPDE which aren't even racing (no timing, instructor in vehicle) and in the past year or 2 we've seen a lot of insurance companies start to deny claims of cars wrecked in HPDE and a few companies started to scan Auto-x results and cross reference them with their insurance records. Mitsu also was doing this to deny warranty claims as well in the past few years.

    Yeah I read that Mitsu would go to events and photograph the cars with the license plates in order to deny claims. I believe that and yet Subaru gave out a free membership to the SCCA back then!
    Anyway no idea what I will buy but as cars start really becoming available and more info is out. hat will make a decision easier. I'm looking at other cars other than Mitsu and Subaru.
    Subaru was always good to me so that does play a factor in my decision.
    I've heard there will be no Legacy wagon for 2008. No idea about that but seems a shame to discontinue all the wagons. It's probably to help sell more SUV's :(
    I really want a diesel WRX but I don't see that happening for a long time. The Honda Accord diesel would be great. I'm going to need 2 cars anyway.
    The long warranty on the Mitsu is a strong selling point if they don't weasel out of it.
    Lots of great cars coming out over the next 3 years!
  • saedavesaedave Chicago, ILPosts: 683
    I've heard there will be no Legacy wagon for 2008. No idea about that but seems a shame to discontinue all the wagons. It's probably to help sell more SUV's

    That is almost correct: It is to sell more "light trucks" (Outbacks) which are permitted much lower fuel economy under CAFE. Subaru could be fined a large amount for a shortfall in Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Weight reduction on newer non-truck models will soon be necessary.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    I know about CAFE and Fleet averages. What I am having trouble believing is that the Outback is considered as a light truck. :confuse: I know times change but it sure looks like a Station Wagon. It's probably an SUV but sure looks like a wagon to me.
    I like wagons, and I do believe you but it's amazing what they can get away with calling a truck nowadays. I remember when Subaru bolted 2 seats into the BRAT to get away with calling it a car. The original BRAT not the Baja which I think was a flop, too limited a market.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,663
    Outback may look like a wagon, but it's classiffied by the EPA as a light truck, and has been for a couple of years now. It's due to the higher ground clearance.

    Bob
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    Another "truck" is PT Cruiser, so Outback is not so far fetched. I don't know rules exactly, but it may have something to do with ground clearance, tireprint and other aspects that allow them to file these vehicles under "special purpose light truck" or similar. When looking at those EPA stickers I remember seeing fuel economy range between 5 mpg and 30-something. Pretty wide :sick:

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Wow that's really pushing the envelope with a PT Cruiser as a light truck. I shouldn't be surprised tho.
    But in my mind and probably to most people they are wagons but politics seems to bend and warp reality.
    I heard the PT Cruiser was being discontinued so I guess the fad only lasted so long. My mother wanted one and was ready to buy one she but hated the local Chrysler dealer so she bought a Subaru instead. :)
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Interestingly I saw on the road the other day an HHR 'panel' which was basically an HHR with no windows!

    -mike
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Actually I eyeballed them. But unless I went blind for a brief period, the rotors in the NY WRX were definitely smaller than the ones in the 3.0R Legacy....could have been an optical illusion, but we will see when the specs are officially released.
  • I own a 2004 WRX and this new one just hurts me. It changes my mind on Subaru period. Its a shame really cause I had a legacy first then I got my WRX and then my fiance bought a 2006 STI recently. So we are a true subaru family. My daughter even has a toy one.
    But anyway, If this is the way they are going to make them look count me out! I will purchase another older model and then I am through!
    I know i see a lot of people with the same view as me but I thought I would add my 2 cents also
    have a good day all
    Ashley Brett and Abigail :cry:
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    People said the same thing when the WRX bugeye came out who had "old school" imprezas. "Neon lights on a Subaru??? Oh my gosh!!!" etc. etc.

    You'll get over it like the "old school" impreza owners did.

    -mike
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    I thought bugeyes were great - I loved them. I own one and it was actually a selling point to me :P .

    I like the '06-'07 grille even more - perhaps best looking of them all. It's a shame there is no Legacy with similar spin. Might have looked quite allright. But that's Subaru - they just figured it out, but got too scared of the Tribeca fiasco so gave it up. Never cared for their (WRX) rear looks, esp. in sedans. Wagons were OK.

    The pictured of new one do not look too promissing, to be frank. Interior looks better than current, but honestly it's hard to see anything really new there. It's just Legacy scaled down. Too subdued, for my taste, but I could probably live with it. The thing that bothers me most are specs. 4-speed auto is just an embarrassment. 5-speed manual is a disappointment. I have no position on brakes, but LSD seems like bean counter crap, which never looks good.

    It doesn't matter if Mike would kick butt in one without - it's all about how it looks against competition. In 2002 there was none, so anything looked great. But they act like nothing changed since '02 and that is not a good thing. They created a new segment, but 6 years was enough to move them from front to midpack. The new model does not look like it will be able to move them back to the front.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    My guess is that the LSD was not a selling point for the car and that most of the folks they are targeting for the new car would rather have VDC over LSD. Car companies spend a lot of $ on market research and I'm guessing they just didn't see a need. From a performance standpoint, you'd need to be pretty darn good a driver to really have that effect you and anyone who is truely competing will have a bunch more mods done to their car than just an LSD.

    The only gripe I really have after seeing the cars in the flesh is the altezza-clear tails on the hatch. They have to go, straight red would have been significantly better.

    -mike
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Exactly right. They managed to roughly match the numbers of the outgoing model, rather than create something special during the redesign, that others will try and benchmark. That is what is disappointing about this new model. Of course it has a bit more legroom than the 07, at the expense of losing some luggage room that the 07 had more of, improved the sound deadening, replaced Aluminium with plastic in the engine bay to reduce manufacting costs etc....but nothing that would create the kind of excitement that the 02 REX created when it debuted in the US....a disappointing introduction to say the least. Especially since they have also had the temerity to quietly remove performance equipment that was available in the outgoing model, like the rear LSD.

    When the 02 came out with 227HP, it was impressive for its day but in this day and age, when family sedans like Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima run around with 260+hp etc., the WRX power rating seems barely adequate. And now they have come back in 08, with a 224HP (SAE) model...disappointing.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    Actually, very few people would mess around with their drivetrain and add an aftermarket LSD, with the potential to completely void their powertrain warranty. Different situation for an out-of-warranty product.

    Also, who knows what kind of interference the actions of an aftermarket LSD would have with the VDC ? A factory-equipped LSD+VDC setup like in the Spec-B is obviously a completely different proposition, since those are designed thus from the factory to operate together.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,500
    If they had any ambitions of expansion of WRX, they can forget it now. They'll be lucky to match the numbers in the second year of production. There will be of course a few faithful who will buy a new one right away at full sticker - but I'm afraid most of us will take "wait and see" position and std. incentives will have to follow. I would not be surprised if '09 or early '10 comes with some major powertrain overhaul.

    Perhaps it's all planned - when looking at '05 Legacy and compare it with the new one they seem to have so much less in them with prices quite close. So who knows. They better bring that 6-speed MT and 250 hp fast :mad:

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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