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Comments
I concur with your concurance that #26 is a poor product; That is why I was amazed that you spoke so highly of Gold Class; in terms of durability it is a lesser product than #26!!??
Yes, clay will eventually take some wax off if used repeatedly, with any lubricant, the same way that rinsing with water and drying with cotton towels will take off your wax if done repeatedly. I have said this before, and it falls right in line. ANY manipulation of the surface other than to ADD new wax, will take some off.
Taken to the extreme, you can TALK at your paint and eventually wear it down if you have years to breathe on the surface. But just using clay normally with a non-detergent lubricant is not going to remove every speck of wax on your vehicle.
#51
Gold Class is a totally different product from the #26. I guess your question is based on the price of #26 versus Gold Class? I haven't priced #26 in a couple of years, but I would guess it is higher priced than Gold Class. That higher price has to do with the cost of carnuba and what you have to do to it to take it from a hard substance to one that can be applied easily.
It's not a big stretch to see that natural products can quite often be more expensive than man-made products. No need to go to far flung parts of the world, ship, process etc.
Some ingredients cost more than others, and sometimes the less expensive ones work better for certain applications. Sometimes not.
As chemists get smarter, they learn to duplicate natural products and even improve on their attributes, quite often at a lower cost.
Don
So what?
What I am saying is that no matter what the two products are made of #26 and /or Gold Class,is that you concur that #26 is a poor product in terms of being durable. Gold Class is even less durable than #26. #26 is 10.95 a can (of paste), Gold Class is 9.95 a can (of paste)So what they are different products,??... its the durability...
That tops all!! I don't know why John from Erazer would have said that clay doesn't remove wax. I talked to him about 6 or eight months ago and ordered some Erazer to try and he really knew his stuff on clay. Let's say you get paint overspray on your car's paint. Then, before you knew about clay, you applied a coat of carnauba wax over the overspray in an attempt to make it slick again.
I can't imagine the same John I talked to at Erazer saying that his clay wouldn't efficiently and quickly remove the overspray due to a coat of wax. John says that his clay is designed to remove hard water spots, tree sap, paint overspray and other bonded surface contaminants( including wax or polish) from automotive paint.
I can speak from experience, although it ain't 30 years, and confidently say that I have removed dried urethane clearcoat overspray with both Clay Magic and Erazer clay using just a few back and forth passes of the clay on each session. If it removes a dried catalyzed urethane clearcoat (which bonds quite well to the paint...better than wax) it will damn sure remove a coat of carnauba wax, PERIOD!
Argue if you want but I invite anybody here to e-mail John at Erazer and ask him for yourself if his Erazer clay won't remove wax, as well as other surface contaminants quickly and efficiently. His e-mail address is available on his website at www.erazer.com .
Take it fr what it's worth!!
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.com
Shoman- uh, no, I don't think I am going to have to accept the "fact" that clay doesn't remove wax.
But, I do appreciate the fact you actually answered one of my questions! I missed your post about the fact that you sold Collinite. Sorry.
I do think this can show some bias on your part regarding Collinite. Not that it totally destroys your credibility on the subject, but it is certainly relevant. (your credibility has been more damaged in other areas than the mere fact you sell Collinite).
So, if clay doesn't remove wax, what type of "liquid" does? I don't believe you answered this question!
Rob
Yes, "clay" will EASILY remove and strip ANY and ALL wax or polish that is on the paint finish.
Thanks,
John
Who is the best mail order place? Their web page doesn't show an Ohio distributor yet.
Glad to learn clay DOES in fact remove residual wax after Dawn wash. Would hate to start over in this whole process.... :-)
Continuing to use Zaino and continue to be very impressed. 6 coats on my baby and it really looks good and turns heads. The effort required to apply and remove Z2 is easier than anything else I have ever tried. And I love the results.
Very thankful for this forum. A number of great tips from a lot of experienced people.
Chris,
You totally misread my note.That is not a slam, but I am floored that you took it the way you did. I was pretty clear that clay will remove the contaminants, and if they have wax on top of them, then that wax will go along WITH those contaminants!
Think about it this way. Blue Clay Magic and most other clay products are NON-abrasive. I hope we can agree on this, John seems to claim SOME clay products are abrasive, he doesn't say which. But Clay Magic has been discussed before. I have never tried RED Clay Magic, but I believe you, Chris have, and you have pointed out that red is abrasive, blue is not. Did I get that right?
IF the clay we are discussing here is non-abrasive, then let us please establish another fact. Clay, in almost all forms, is inert. (has no active chemical ingredients) Thus it can't chemically interact with wax or anything else.
Given that it's non-abrasive, inert and when used with a non-detergent spray as I have indicated, how is it going to remove wax, other than through the tiny amount of friction between any two slick surfaces. As I mentioned, ANY rubbing action on wax will remove some of it.
I have used clay of various types for years, and in one simple use (all that is needed. Rubbing clay over a surface time and again during the same session is just wasted motion, test it yourself, clay removes virtually all "contaminants" in one or maybe two passes over a given area) clay has never stripped the wax off any of my cars. Logic says it can't.
Now if you talk about rubbing the clay bar with a detergent as lubricant and you rub the bar dozens of times over the same area, then more wax will be removed, This is not in dispute.
My entire point is that in one "treatment" where you use clay as intended with one or two passes over an area, you are not going to strip ALL of a good coat of wax, probably a very small percentage. This is basically what I understood John to tell me about his product in a phone conversation before posting my previous note.
John's note posted above seems to contradict that, but if you read farthur he talks about rubbing up to 10 strokes. I still think this is not going to take ALL wax off a surface. But this is for his product, so I guess if he says it, then I have to say we had a misunderstanding and I apologize to him if I got it wrong.
For my part, I talked to John, thought we understood each other, and as God is my witness I did NOT missquote him. It seems he did not understand my question, I can't blame him for that, but I sure tried to be clear and accurate.
So, I will say for the record again. I personally do not believe, and I think if you do any reasonable test, results will back this up, that non-abrasive clay used lightly and correctly (meaning one or two swipes on a given surface) WILL remove wax on top of contaminants including overspray etc, and it will also remove that overspray etc. (Chris, I don't want to get in an another argument with you about this, I think I said it right, I don't know how you took it wrong, but I firmly believe we agree on everything except the AMOUNT of wax clay removes). I also firmly believe that logic and testing shows that clay will not TOTALLY remove a good wax that is fresh in just the one easy 'treatment".
My sole point in bringing this up to begin with is so that others don't think they can totally strip off old wax in preparation for applying Zaino or other waxes from one simple easy clay treatment. I KNOW it takes more than this to totally prepare the surface.
Think about it folks. The clay bar works by grabbing things that stick OUT of the surface, it GLIDES over everything else. Things that stick out of the surface with a coat of wax on them will be removed too, I think I made that clear, if not, it should be now.
If you, Chris or Rob want to say that one easy pass of clay with a non-detergent lubricant will strip any and all wax from a vehicle, then fine, we will have to agree to disagree. If John wants to say his product will strip any and all wax in one easy use with his lubricant, then that is fine too. I don't believe it, and will proceed with any detail I do from the standpoint that more needs to be done.
Don
As for further discussion on clay with you, I'll take the same position you take with Rob360... I don't have time for non-productive banter! You're not here to learn, you're here to SELL. By the way, you probably won't answer this but what do you recommend fo removing wax before applying a new coat or a different kind of wax? I think Rob asked this question already but I didn't see an answer?!?
I am glad, however that John did come into the forum and clarify your "misunderstanding" of his words. If his clay wouldn't remove a carnauba wax in one session I'd never use or recommend it again!!
To the forum,
If you do a clay scrub and the paint surface is completely smooth afterwards, there is no need to use anything else to prep for wax/polish unless you have scratches, swirls, stains, oxidation, or some other type of paint "damage" as John from Erazer posted above.
Don't waste your time or money on a wax prep "miracle" product that can supposedly do something that Clay supposedly can't. If the paint is smooth and the contaminants are gone, then the wax is gone also. Also, it doesn't take more than one session to remove carnauba wax from paint with clay whether you use the company's lube, Dawn and water, or paint thinner. If it did, then just imagine how many sessions it would actually take to remove a real surface contaminant that IS bonded to the paint surface like hard water deposit spots?!? Incidentally, hard water deposits are removed quite quiclky and efficiently with both Erazer and Clay Magic.
Again people, don't take my word for it, call Erazer or Clay Magic and ask them for yourselves how efficient their products will remove wax, even when you use their non-detergent lube!!
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
Your ability to "intrepret" notes is amazing. I gave all due respect to the "manufacturer". But I trust my own eyes and results. We can argue forever who is calling who wrong.
Yes I have answered about what to take off wax. I have agreed with you and others that strong detergents work, but some specific pre-wax products can also work. I guess this will be yet another question that I answered that you will fail to see?
I do not agree with you about how efficient clay (not abrasive) is in effecting the wax/polish layer. You have the right to your opinion, and until they repeal free speech, I have the right to mine.
You mention paint thinner like it's something I have brought up. Just to set things straight, I never mentioned it except for now.
A quick check of past notes will reveal lots of times when I agreed with you, Rob, and many others on more than one point. Saying "there has yet to be anyone right other than yourself" is just another example of how you exagerate to make your points.
Just like you, I will be tickled to get back to basics and get past the bickering. Till then I will try to at least set the record straight.
Don
I recommended dropping the wheel in boiling water. Any comments
Whatever... :-)
guitarzan,
I don't like those spray on wheel cleaners on painted or clearcoated wheels. Some of them work ok but I have never seen a spray on/rinse off wheel product that removed ALL the crap from a wheel. The best way I have found is to use regular car wash soap and a soft cloth. Your finger also makes a great cleaning tool for those hard to reach spots as long as you are not using a caustic cleaner.
My view is this... I don't spray anything on a painted wheel that I wouldn't spray in the middle of my hood. My reasoning is that the paint on your wheels are usually as delicate, if not more so than the paint on the body, in some cases. If you want to keep your painted/coated wheels' finish looking as good possible you should treat them just like the paint on the body of the car.
I know this ain't what you wanted to hear but from my experience, this is the safest way to care for coated or painted wheels.
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
A little piece of a sponge can be twisted up into a small point to reach most tight spots. :-)
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
I bought a baby bottle cleaning brush with a rubber tip (over the end of the metal rod) to work in the "nooks and crannies" on my wife's car's wheels. Seems to do a good job with just soap and water.
Terry
I really think that you have polluted this website with your bogus, contradictory, and just plain WRONG opinions and advice. Unfortunately, it would appear that there is no end to it, either. The latest is your "opinion" that clay does not remove wax. You wrote:
""Clay, as I stated, does NOT remove wax (even
really bad wax) unless the lubricant you use with it removes wax. Used with the spray provided, Clay Magic will not take wax off, and if you use Clay Magic with Meguiars Final Inspection it won't remove wax. This isn't just my opinion, I talked with John, the owner of Erazer. (www.erazer.com) He makes clay products and knows how Clay Magic and all the others work.""(...) ""I asked him specifically about this and he said that the only wax non-abrasive clay will remove, is any wax that might be on top of things like bugs, tree sap or other artifacts on TOP of the paint.""
John, thank God, posted directly to this website and COMPLETELY contradicts what YOU say that he told you. John (from Erazer) writes:
""Yes, "clay" will EASILY remove and strip ANY and ALL wax or polish that is on the paint finish. Thanks,
John""
To see you once again fail to admit that you are WRONG more than astounds me, it is really starting to downright piss me off! First you hold John up as being the "Expert" on the subject by stating:
""BTW, Sal is the one that introduced me to John at Erazer, so I guess he feels that John knows about clay. #42, Rob, You are just going to have to accept that clay won't remove wax, the experts support this, not just lil' ol me!""
LOL!! No, Don, it would appear that YOU are the only "expert" to have this opinion! Funny how John goes from being your reference expert on the subject when you think he agrees with you, but when he posts here something just the opposite of what you say, you simply say he is wrong and you disagree! And yes, apparently Sal does think John knows about clay! Obviously you don't!
Your "misinterpretation" of what John told you reminds me of your "guarantee" to everyone on this forum that you were applying Zaino "Exactly as Sal recommends", but we all found out that was not the case, didn't we??? Can we really trust or believe ANYTHING you say here?
I am going to have to start keeping a list of the b.s. opinions and advice that you give on this forum since I am really starting to have a hard time remembering them all! I can only hope the rest of the people here do the same (ie, FORGET your advice!).
Rob
There is a product called P21S wheel cleaner that I have good results with. It is pH balanced and will not etch or strip ANY type of wheel surface!It is both gentle, but really removes the grime from the wheels. Don't know how they do it!
I have accidently sprayed a little on my paint, and saw no detrimental effects!
It is not a cheap product though, so you may be better off just using car wash like Chris says, if you don't mind using a little extra elbow grease!
Rob
This is for a buddy who has a 325, and is LAZY! I love Chris's idea of using part of a sponge, and plan to initially wash my wheels that way. But I'm going to recommend P21S to my buddy, and see what happens.
I forget the brand of his wheels, but they have many tiny little holes, which is really quite a stupid design. He did say he'd avoid them next time. But if this spray does a good job, it won't matter what wheels he has
Thanks all.
Does anyone have an opinion on using the soft brushes, some of which are attached to a wand that sprays water through the brush? I have a very soft bristle brush I use for the lower part of the car like the rocker panels and wheel wells edges and wheels.
Also, how about those shiwala type cleaning wands? Will they scratch the paint? I used to use one on my older car but am afraid to use it on the new one. Actually, I'm afraid to rub anything on the new car's paint for fear of scratching it. I take it to the wand type car wash and get as much salt and dirt off as possible but don't want to rub with anything. Those brushes at the car wash are terrible. It makes me cringe to see people using them.
Pledge sprayed on a complex wheel pattern? Sounds quite brilliant as easily applied protection. Of course it is easy to hand wax the face of the wheel, but FORGET those nooks and crannies. Great ideas flowing here.
The problem is road salt and other assorted winter road crud. What would be the best method of getting rid of this junk? And what would be the effect of using a commercial car wash (ie: drive thru) on a Zainoed car surface?
Regards
Bonnie Rick
Town Hall Community Manager
Eastwood Company sells a variety of brushes that work well, one is ideal for most wheels with spaces at least 1" round or thereabouts. For smaller spaces, you might consider a refrigerator coil brush. These come to a VERY small point and have soft bristles. It does have a spiral metal center though, so if you try one, be very careful not to force things too much. This type of brush is very long and you could cut it into two or three different size brushes for various spaces.
Simple green works the best to clean up my racing wheels. Wax afterwards, does help a lot.
Don
The event was sponsored by Meguiars, maybe they needed a disclaimer on some of the cars?
Don
I don't like using a brush for any painted surface. Based on experience (removing the scratches from brushes) I can only recommend 100% cotton toweling or diapers as being safe on painted surfaces. I haven't tried a brush yet that didn't leave hairline scratches.
The wheel wells are a different story on some cars. If the inner panels are plastic or they are undercoated I will use a brush and soap to clean them. If they are painted I prefer using part of an old cotton towel or an old cotton wash mitt.
I have only used a Shiwala a few times on a cop car that was already scratched to heck so I can't really comment on srcatches from them but it seems obvious that the density of their surface does not provide the safety barrier agaist grit that the nap of a cotton towel or wash mitt does.
This is just my opinion. :-)
guitarzan,
After using both Castrol Super Clean and Simnle green I'd have to say that the Castrol is more caustic than "the green". I asume that's the Castrol you are referring to. :-) Oh, and pledge doesn't provide any protection, just an oily shine and an animal magnetism for dust!! :-)
pblevine,
I don't like commercial car washes for three reasons. Number one is that some of them use recycled water (in my area anyway). That means that my car is being washed with the same water that your car, as well as guitarzan's car, Rob360's car, shoman's car, etc was washed with. I don't like that idea AT ALL!
Second, even if you use the "no touch" washes, what you are doing is basically forcing the salt and grime into or across the surface of your paint under high pressure. I equate this to taking a synthetic chamois (Yes, I use them but only on clean paint) and rubbing across the same salt or grit, forceing it into/across the paint surface and causing pits and scratches. Contrary to other opinions, odds are that these scratches are in your paint, not just on the "wax".
And last but certainly not least, if you have a rock chip in your paint and the pressurized water from the car wash hits just right it can go under the paint surrounding the chip and blow off chunks of paint, which makes for one bad day! Can you say paint repair? :-(
The thing is, if your area suffers severe winters and is subjected to salt and sludge most of the winter months you have to do something. I suggest moving to Florida! LOL But then you'd have hurricanes to deal with. :-) Seriously, if you live in such an area you have to decide whether the damage that the salt and grime can cause is worse than the damage you risk by using a commercial wash. I wish I could give you a more direct answer but this one is the proverbial "lesser of two evils" and I don't even like making those decisions for myself. Sorry.
shoman,
Re:Post 77 ...or maybe that's what they get using Meguiars? That's what I always got.:-)
Whew, hope I didn't miss anyone! :-)
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
Would anyone use a brush to wash the paint on their car? I hope not.
The wheels on my Rx-7 have some slight scratches on them. I went over the car with a fine tooth comb before I bought the car. I asked the owner what he used to clean the wheels with. He told me he used an over the counter wheel cleaner and a "soft" bristle brush. I have little doubt that that is where the scratches came from!
I personally use a sponge that was included with my P21S wheel cleaner.
Rob
The statement in the first line of my reply to you should have said...(removing the scratches LEFT BY brushes). I have never actually polished scratches out of a brush!?! Good thing my detailing is better than my english, huh?:-)
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
Thanks for your input. I guess I kind of knew it all along. Given no good answer, I think I'll leave the road waste (salt, etc.) on the car until the weekend permits me to use some Zaino car wash and a gentle application of water. Followed, of course, with a slight Z6 touch up.
By the way, I don't think commerical car washes up here are using recycled water. But I could be wrong. But they do use high pressure water sprays along with mechanical brushes and hot forced air. As you said, this has to rub any solid matter into the paint. It may look "clean" at the moment, but it will damage the surface for the future.
Thanks again but
The EPA laws apply all across America. There is no way a car wash gets approved without following applicable waste water codes/guidlines/etc etc. That is not to say that there are not grandfathered places still in operation.
Hey it is good that it works for you. I am not a real fan of alloy wheels, and one of the reasons them is the complications that it presents. I have one daily driver that is chrome over steel (I think) and it costs 26 bucks to replace, but it is going on 14 yrs and no rust. Also it shows dust only in EXTREME conditions; my daily driver alloy wheels display brown dust almost as soon as I function the brakes. I have found that Z-1 and Z-2 work nicely, but the alloys still need more cleaning and maintenance.
-- Dale
Anne4 wrote awhile back that she purchased a wand that converts your hard water to soft water. This apparently prevents water spots developing on the car. Anne stated to me yesterday she bought it off the internet. Has anyone out there used this product? I am thinking about ordering it. Any other opinions?
div2,
I use Zaino Z6 for the same purpose and it really does help repel dust and keep my wheels (Chrome over aluminum, I think) cleaner than before. Also, it makes washing them MUCH easier than it used to be. If you are happy with Pledge I say use it. Not trying to force you into anything, just offering an option. :-)
pblevine,
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. :-)
ruking1,
Do you also use Z6 to maintain your wheels since you applied the Z2? I figure you do but if not, you should really try it. It works great for me. I'd like your feedback if you do this or decide to try it for a while. :-)
Kate12,
I'm not sure if the wand I have is the same one Anne bought but the one I have is a life saver fr me!! I have terrible water and got spots every time I washed my TA until I got my wand.
Go to the link below to see the one I bought. I will never be without one as long as I live where the water leaves spots. I tested the wand by washing my Trans Am and not drying it right away to see if I got spots, It had NO spots after I was done. Their website has information on pricing, ordering, etc. Let me know if you have any questions about the wand I use. :-)
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/enablers/index.html
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
This is where most of the brake dust settles.
--ideas OTHER than taking the wheels off of the car, please.
At nearly $50 (including shipping) Im sure glad I don't have a hard water problem!
Rob
Yes I do use z-6 and do use separate towels to apply and remove(that is from body paint applicators and removers)
Thanks for the information and sorry I brought up a topic already discussed. I guess I should have gone way back and checked previous postings but it's all I can do to keep up with the daily postings. Having a 5yr. old and a 22month old limits the time I can spend on the site. I'll order the spray wand today on the internet and save postage and handling. I'll probably buy the 39.00 one. Hope that one will be sufficient.
Just mailed my order to Zaino two days ago-88dollars worth of products and now I'm ordering the wand. My husband will probably think I'm going crazy. I seriously considered collinite but I'm going to try Zaino first.
Anne4
Once we get our Odyssey I let you know how all the products worked for me. I just hope that Ohio has a few warm days so I can do all this stuff. Thanks everyone. This site has been very informative.
I use a smaller (12" long, 1.5" thick) sponge on my aluminum wheels. Soak it in zaino wash (after car is clean) and then wedge it back under the rotor and wiggle it around to clean. Have to roll the car to get the spot behind the brake rotor pad. Easy to cut your fingers before I started doing that. Spray cleaners just don't cut it.
Chris -
I Z2 and Z6 my aluminum wheels but still find that they collect dirt/brake dust quicker than I can clean them. Actually, an oily film layer that collects on the wheels attracts the dirt. Understand that my car never sees rain so the only thing that gets really dirty are the wheels. Any ideas?
I used Lexol for leather for years before starting my business. When I added the leather product I also bought and now sell Vinylex. I have found it can be glossy like most vinyl products if you don't watch how much you put on. Usually, most of these products can be "de-glossed" a little at a time by wiping with another dry paper towel or cloth or wiping with a soft rag slightly dampened with water.
Vinylex works well on my cars, I think it's at least as good as most products out there, doesn't seem to attract dust as much as Armor-all.
Don
Stock brakes have a shield already on the inside edge to protect from debris, adding another to the other side effectively seals in the disk/caliper. If you do any spirited driving at all, I would not consider these.
Don
If you don't mind, please e-mail me and include your feedback on the spot free wand. I've been waiting to hear how well it works for other people and how you like it, what you dislike (if anything). :-)
stillwater,
Without taking the wheels off, about the only option I know is to try something like MongoaPawn mentioned. A long, thin sponge or a piece of toweling may prove to be useful in trying to reach the backside of the wheels. It can be tough, if not impossible to clean the backs of some wheels without removing them.
Rob,
It's also interesting how well they do work if you do have a hard water problem. :-)
RichIITF,
I have used both Lexol Vinylex and their leather stuff and was not impressed by either product. I wasn't able to tell that much difference between the end results achieved with Vinylex and Armor-All when both products were applied/removed using the same technique. Just my opinion.
ruking1,
Good point on using different towels/app. pads for wheels. :-)
MongoaPawn,
You need to figure out where the oily film is coming from, then we can try to prevent the build up. Any ideas where it comes from?
reBMW,
Sorry, I don't know what damage, if any, the Kleen Wheels could/would cause. I have never used them because of the possible heat build up that could occur, as mentioned by shoman.
Chris Parrish
nd4speed@bellsouth.net
If I just THINK about washing our cars, I see water spots - like acne on the forehead of a teen on prom night!! The wand SOUNDS good. What is the longevity of this product? Did you email your purchase order or phone it in? Is there a replaceable cartidge, or do you just buy a new wand? Maybe a stupid question: other than spots recurring, how do you know that the wand's life is at an end?
Thanks.