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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    BTW It would be Vega's vs Las Vegas

    Umm, in English the plural of Vega is Vegas. Vega's is the possessive form, as in "the Vega's steering is not as precise as the Pinto's."
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why not try a search next time - that question has been answered several times in both forums already. Should start showing up next month, possibly April if they end up holding shipments for quality control.
  • joeblack1joeblack1 Member Posts: 52
    I guess I'm not the only one who is tired of all the irrelevant silliness in the so called Ford Fusion discussion group. It is a shame when things degrade like that.

    I saw a 2010 come up on ebay recently. If you go to www.ebaymotors.com and search on Ford Fusion, 2010 "Completed Listings" you will see a 2010 that expired on February 16th. I thought that was interesting. I am curious to know when they will hit show rooms. The main reason I'm interested is that I am looking to buy a used 2009 or 2008 and expect that to drop prices even further. Wish I could afford a 2010.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Well, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas - right?
  • milkman1milkman1 Member Posts: 80
    As JoeBlack1 gave me new information, I in no way regret the theory. Trust me I've read the rest, just antsy for news and felt like shaking the tree to see what fell out.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Only if the Vegas are in Vegas.

    Sorry I started this. :P
  • canddmeyercanddmeyer Member Posts: 410
    When I first started driving (70's) there were lines. Don't want to repeat that.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    As JoeBlack1 gave me new information

    I didn't realize that a temporary ebay listing for a car that's not on sale yet was relevant or I would have mentioned it. ;)
  • joeblack1joeblack1 Member Posts: 52
    The fact that a dealer in Texas feels that they are close enough to receiving delivery on one of these that they would list it on ebay seems to me to be one of the more relevant and interesting developments that I have yet to see on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. And, it is verifiable information. You can go right to ebay and see the listing.

    BTW, it is being listed again: eBay item:Ford : Fusion (#200311872282). This time it appears to be getting serious offers. But it's probably irrelevant, because all we will be able to know is the price that it actually sells for or, if it doesn't sell, the price the dealer refused to sell it for. And, who would ever want to know that?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That car has not even been shipped yet. At best it's just an order with a future delivery date and the buy it now price is MSRP. In other words, they'll sell you the one they have on order for MSRP, but they can't guarantee the delivery date.

    They can put anything they want on Ebay - doesn't mean the vehicle is actually sitting on the lot. If it was they wouldn't have just a stock picture.
  • joeblack1joeblack1 Member Posts: 52
    You can't put anything you want on ebay without jeopardizing your feedback rating. The fact that we have seen the first Ford Fusion 2010 Hybrid on ebay is a valuable piece of information. It means that someone has put one on ebay and believes they can sell it otherwise they probably wouldn't have bothered. It means that we're going to have visibility into the purchase process and watch what someone will pay for it. It means we're going to be able to see what price the dealer gets for it.You can certainly say what it doesn't mean, all I'm saying is that nowadays what someone will sell something for or attempt to sell it for on ebay is relevant. That's all. And it's more information than we had before.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The only thing that would be relevant to me would be how much my local dealer was asking unless you plan to buy yours from Ebay.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    Don't know if this has been posted...but here goes..

    Ford Fusion SE, Honda Accord EX-L and Mazda6 I Touring are all tested and all three have manual transmissions.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/sedans/2010_ford_fusion_vs_m- - azda_6_honda_accord_comparison_test/(page)/1
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Accord wins a C/D comparo. What a surprise! :)

    It would be nice when they did these comparos if they would at least TRY to equip the cars similarly. Then maybe we wouldn't have complaints on the Fusion's "cheap" cloth interior while the Accord is the top-end EX-L trim. The Mazda6i was not in its top trim, either. Would have been more fair to compare the Accord LX-P vs. the Fusion SE, or the top-end Fusion against the EX-L (actually, it was the EX-L with Nav).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Ford Fusion SE, Honda Accord EX-L and Mazda6 I Touring are all tested and all three have manual transmissions.

    Thanks for the link. I thought it was interesting that C/D compared the interior of a 27,805 Accord with leather to the 21,000 pre-production Fusion. For $6k, they could have the door panels covered with just about whatever they wanted. Part of the reason for opting for nav in the Accord ($2200 over the EX-L w/o nav) is so you can get bluetooth and a workable but cumbersome iPod interface.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Accord wins a C/D comparo. What a surprise!

    In retrospect, they have been giving Ford a lot of accolades lately. I think they just don't want the blue oval's head to get to big. I wonder if
    Csaba Csere and Bill Ford live in the same neighborhood.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    There have been many contributors, on this forum, who had me convinced that the Mazda6, and even the Fusion, were more fun to drive than the Accord. Obviously Car and Driver sees things quite a bit differently. What they thought about the interior materials didn't mean much IMO.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, C/D did say the Fusion was more fun to drive than the Accord--if you are on 40 miles of bad road. Which is a situation lots of folks find themselves in every day. I'm not one of them, though. I only have 10-30 miles of bad roads on most days. :P
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    After reading the last paragraph on the 2010 Fusion, I had images of Ford Camry. Not what I expected.

    Car and Driver
    "But as good as it is, the Fusion doesn’t register a high score on our fun meter. “A perfectly decent car,” concluded one crew member. “But it’s soft for intense motoring and might be better suited to someone whose needs include quiet operation and a softer ride.”"
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    After reading the last paragraph on the 2010 Fusion, I had images of Ford Camry. Not what I expected.

    Yeah, zikes! I wonder of the pre-production car was missing a sway bar or something. I know Ford has been doing a lot of benchmarking with Toyota, maybe they got carried away.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Like a quiet, smooth ride over potholed streets and highways is a BAD thing? :surprise:

    I think sometimes these car mags, and those who read them, get a bit carried away when it comes to handling vs. ride comfort and NVH. What are family sedans (especially the low-end, I4 jobs) used for, mostly? Commuting, maybe? Carting the family around town and on trips, maybe? Canyon-carving up and down mountain passes, at far-above-legal speeds? Not as much.

    If C/D wanted to disparage the Fusion by comparing its ride to that of a Camry (or their all-time favorite put-down, Buick), they would have done it.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think sometimes these car mags, and those who read them, get a bit carried away when it comes to handling vs. ride comfort and NVH. What are family sedans (especially the low-end, I4 jobs) used for, mostly? Commuting, maybe? Carting the family around town and on trips, maybe? Canyon-carving up and down mountain passes, at far-above-legal speeds? Not as much.

    See this is really a matter of where you are living. On the west coast, cars that can run through the canyons get run over by those that can, or create road rage events. I remember going over CA hwy 154 in an '83 Reliant 2.6/4 cyl in the early 90s and being very very frightened. The Contour w/a 2.5 V6 had no problems on that road, nor CA hwy 58 going from 101 to I5 out of San Luis Obispo.

    I think my point is don't assume the world is flat because we live in the midwest. It is still round and still has canyons and valleys that are part of every day drives elsewhere in the country. This is one of the reasons Buicks and Oldsmobiles sold well in the rust belt but not the west coast.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    There have been many contributors, on this forum, who had me convinced that the Mazda6, and even the Fusion, were more fun to drive than the Accord. Obviously Car and Driver sees things quite a bit differently. What they thought about the interior materials didn't mean much IMO.

    Well, considering the Accord won by a SINGLE point...

    Not only that, but C&D has been receiving checks from Honda and BMW for a while now. It's nothing new... at all.

    Besides, do you honestly think that after awarding the Accord a 10Best, they'd turn around and award the title to a DIFFERENT competitor? Please..

    C&D's comparisons are only interesting without a Honda or BMW in them, and I'm surprised they haven't found a way to award them in those cases as well! :)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Oh, I forgot. If any magazine thinks the Accord is best (Consumer Reports, Car and Driver) it is biased, by rule. But of course the Edmunds review (where the Mazda wins) is much more believable. Reeeally
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Hi,I have a Nissan which is still under factory warranty.I have about 800 miles left before it expires.These are the problems:
    1.The drivers side door had a wind noise,so I took it to the dealer.He said that the door needs new weatherstripping which would cost $140 [$70 parts and $70 labor]
    2.Also,he said the side shocks [left and right] have to be replaced which would cost $200 including parts and labor.
    3.There are some minor rattles in the cabin.
    So,is weatherstripping and shocks covered under the bumper to bumper warranty?Or are they considered normal wear and tear? Do the rattles come under the factory warranty?
    Please,your help is greatly appreciated as I have only about 800 miles left before my factory warranty expires.
    Thanks.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    On the positive side, wrt, the fusion C&D says:

    On the other hand, the steering was nearly as good as the best in this group, and the car was absolutely devoid of nasty surprises.

    Sounds quite a bit different from what edmunds had to say about the steering...they called it numb and vague, IIRC.

    They mention a problem that I have found on most cars now applies to the Mazda6:

    Short bottom cushions, too.

    That was something I had thought I noticed when I sat in a leather equipped one recently. It seemed down-sized from my 2007 (cloth). OTOH, sat in the new Fusion at the auto show and loved the seat. For me the Fusion was definitely the best seat among these three, though I have not sat in a new Mazda6 with cloth, yet (I assume the seat cushion is no longer than the leather one).

    I also have to agree with the dissenter on the Accord:

    “Too big,” he complained, displaying a keen eye for tiny dimensional disparities. “And it’s ugly,” he added.

    But, I'm not sold on the super-sized RX-8 looks of the mazda6, either (nor do I like the chrome window trim or the black plastic filler in place of glass) and the grill of the Fusion is not appealing to me...I'd like to see a non-chrome option there.

    I had found the previous Accord's steering to be too light, sounds like this continues, based on mentioning the light steering of this edition.

    I don't think the different trim levels affected the net scores much. The Accord got bonus points for "features and amenties" but the Fusion got about the same bonus from the "price as tested" score. In the end, the scores are close enough that one would be silly not to check out all three and base their decision on their own personal preferences.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Keep in mind that the Accord EX-L also comes with bigger wheels and tires than the LX/LX-P. One of the key points C/D cited in favor of the Accord was its better steering response--a direct result of these larger wheels and tires. So I disagree with your contention that trim level didn't affect the net scores much.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The wheels and tires on the Fusion and Accord were identical. First thing I checked.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Even before I read the review I could tell you who was going to win. (Accord). I also question the $6,000 dollar price difference between the Accord and Fusion. Is the Accord really $6,000 dollars better than a Fusion or $3,000 better than the Mazda? Why didn't CD use a Fusion SEL 4cyl automatic? Even the Mazda had the higher trim level. This was not an apples to apples comparison. Most won't see this. I hope people really read this article and see just how close the scores are. Along with the price tags being thousands of dollars apart. :sick:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    In C&D's defense, the test cars are usually provided by the mfr so while they can request a specific model or trim or equipment level, they get whatever the mfr provides and I doubt Ford sells too many SEL manuals.

    The only thing surprising about the review was the Fusion suspension since that has always been one of the Fusion's advantages. It will be interesting to see other comments from other reviewers.

    And what's with the Gotta Have It rating? Since when do any of these vehicles evoke a "gotta have it" emotion?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    And what's with the Gotta Have It rating? Since when do any of these vehicles evoke a "gotta have it" emotion?

    Believe it or not, I actually did have a little of the "gotta have it" response when I spent a week and a half with a rented Milan Premier I4 last summer. It was a surprisingly sophisticated car--only the engine noise under acceleration was a disappointment.

    Then again, I got the same "gotta have it" when I drove a manual '08 LX-P. So maybe I'm just bored with my current rides.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I don't think the different trim levels affected the net scores much. The Accord got bonus points for "features and amenties" but the Fusion got about the same bonus from the "price as tested" score. In the end, the scores are close enough that one would be silly not to check out all three and base their decision on their own personal preferences.

    But if they were comparably equipped the Fusion still would have won points for both and driven it closer to the Accord's final score. Bluetooth and an iPod interface in the Ford cost all of $395 whereas you have to get the $2200 navi package in the Honda to have that functionality.

    If the so called comparison doesn't compare apples to apples then it's not a true comparison and should be treated as such. You can't give an advantage to one model when you didn't even give another the chance to show what it can do too.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I agree that they should either compare comparably equipped vehicles or comparably priced vehicles. But as I said, in the end, the scores are close enough that one would be silly not to check out all three and base their decision on their own personal preferences.

    For instance in my case I could not care less about blue teeth, ipods, or navigation systems. I care a lot about seat comfort and steering feel/handling. Having sat in and them and based on what I have read, were I in the market now, I'd be leaning toward the fusion...but I'd still drive all 3.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They spoke very highly of the Fusion when they said something to the effect of "even if ten vehicles were in the comparison, the Fusion would be in the top 3.

    That spoke volumes to me.

    Golly, this forum got lively over that article!
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    They spoke very highly of the Fusion when they said something to the effect of "even if ten vehicles were in the comparison, the Fusion would be in the top 3.
    Which would strongly imply that they would favor the Fusion over an Altima 2.5/6MT. (Does such a beast still exist?)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think it's even more impressive when you realize that 4 cylinder sedans have not been a strong point for Ford in the past.

    I think the next test should be with the AWD versions. I bet the Fusion takes first place in that one........ ;)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i am wondering if for is softening the ride of non sport versions?
    next time i sit in the back of my fusion, i will have to see if i notice
    the 'knees up' seating position.
    i like the rims on the fusion.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Focus and Mondeo are two pretty darn good 4 cylinder sedans from Ford. Unfortunately, the Focus we get here in the U.S. is a 10-year-old design (very competitive when it debuted) with some refreshes, and the Mondeo... that's a future Mercury, right? ;)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They haven't said whether any of the new Euro vehicles will wear a Mercury badge. But I don't think they'll be bringing the Mondeo here - at least not the sedan. But the next gen Fusion and Mondeo will be on the same platform. The Euro Focus should arrive next year and that might be a Mercury if it doesn't replace the current Focus.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    the accord has 17 inch wheels. does the fusion se have the same now?
    se's are equipped with 16's, unless this is different for 2010.
    i have seen the wheels somewhere before, maybe euro focus?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • robsisrobsis Member Posts: 162
    IMHO, all of the itmes you describe fall under a 'bumper-to-bumper' warranty. Take it to the service manager, not just the service writer.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It would be a good idea to read the warranty book that came with the car. Shocks may be considered a "wear item" and not covered, unless it's clear they are defective. Sometimes interior squeaks/rattles are covered only during a 1 year/12 month adjustment period, but some warranties are more lenient so it's best to refer to the warranty book.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you download the Chassis specs from the box on the right hand side it lists the tires as 225/50R17 Michelin MXV4s. But you're right - I believe the SE does come with 16's and not 17's, although they might be optional. Or this might be one of those one-off pre-production prototypes. If they did have 16's then that would explain a lot.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    the accord has 17 inch wheels. does the fusion se have the same now?
    se's are equipped with 16's, unless this is different for 2010.


    The SE now comes standard with 17" wheels. 16" on the S model.

    And the SEL model does not come with a manual trans - that's why it was a SE model. But you can't get leather with the SE.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was wondering why C/D chose MT cars when they admitted 90% of them are sold with ATs. Now it is clearer... SES not available with an MT, EX-L is. Accord has a 5-speed MT, and 5-speed AT. Fusion and Mazda6 have a 6-speed AT.

    Not that I am implying C/D would stack the deck in favor of one of their perennial 10Best cars. Nah, they wouldn't do that. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Not that I am implying C/D would stack the deck in favor of one of their perennial 10Best cars. Nah, they wouldn't do that.
    Nah, only Ford would do that, they called it a "Challenge'.
    But to answer your question with a question, of what benefit is it to C&D financially to rename the Accord one of their 10 best? :confuse: - it's not like Honda is out there advertising the heck out of the Accord and/or paying C&D beaucoups of money to allow use of the award in advertising. The magazine would do better in this regard to name the Fusion 10 best. Wonder how much Ford pays JDP for their 'initial quality' trophies, or how much they paid the supervising mags in their Fusion challenge?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No benefit financially. But if you had just told millions of people that the top family sedan is the Accord, and ranked it over the Mazda6, would you be likely to turn around a couple of months later and say, "OK, I goofed, actually the Mazda6 is better than the Accord."? Nor would C/D.

    They never did explain why they were unable to get the lower-trim Accord into the comparo--they mentioned that they had a lower-cost car lined up.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The magazine would do better in this regard to name the Fusion 10 best. Wonder how much Ford pays JDP for their 'initial quality' trophies, or how much they paid the supervising mags in their Fusion challenge?

    Ah yes yes, it couldn't be anything having to do with decent product. Wow.

    image
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Consumer Reports has also picked the Accord, for 09.
    Quote:
    "The Accord is a roomy, well-rounded sedan that's easy to live with and enjoyable to drive. It offers a comfortable ride, agile handling, and efficient, refined four- and six-cylinder powertrains. Electronic stability control is standard, and crash-test results are impressive. Though the Nissan Altima edged out the Accord in our Ratings, most Altima versions lack electronic stability control."

    The Altima couldn't hold on to the top spot. CR says it's because of stability control, but I think there's more to it than that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Knowing CR, it IS all about stability control being standard on the Accord, and not on the Altima. They seem to be fixated on stability control of late, treating it with greater importance than even crash safety.
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