Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott

It is rather ridiculous that CR gives a total score, but never reveals how they arrive at it. Is it really asking too much for them to list this?

At least the publications that do give points for things like "gotta have it" provide the numbers for each area that they totaled up to get a final score.

backy

CR does provide a breakdown by scoring category, but it's via the colored dots instead of numerical rankings. I'd like to see more details on how CR arrives at its point totals. If it's between not publishing the points for each criterion or having ridiculous criteria like "gotta have it", I'd opt for the former.

cannon3

There is an article on the net, for some reason I cannot link it. Says Ford Motor Company has cut its factory operating costs by 50% over the last 2-3 years. This is great news for Ford and its being able to re-pay loans.

smarty666

I'm interested in getting either a 2009 Maxima SV with tech but without sport and premium packages or a fully loaded 3.5SL altima; both are really nice cars and what ever one I get will be determined which one nissan is giving a better deal on at the time I go; I'm curious to know if anyone has test driven both these vehicles and if one vehicle has a better ride quality than the other in regards to control, bumpiness, etc? I know both have independent suspensions without a sports tuned suspension but I wanted to know if the max with its wider and bigger wheels would give a more bumpy ride than the 3.5SL altima?

bhmr59

The only way to determine which YOU like best is to test drive them both over the same test drive roads.

thegraduate

I second that. One man's cushy is another man's sporty.

Also, the Altima SL is not the "sport-tuned" model; it's the more plush model. The SE is going to be your sportier choice. Just a small heads-up.

akirby

If you're buying based on price - what difference does it make?

smarty666

Thanks for the info, most likely if I can afford it I'll go with the max because it is such a pain in the butt to get a 3.5SL altima with the color combo you want because Nissan makes so few of them; I'd wish they would increase production on 3.5SL's because not everyone who wants an altima with a V6 wants to have a choppy firm ride that you get with the 3.5SE and you see more of them then you do 3.5SL's; anyway both are great car's but the new body style on the max is just so damn nice!!

tenpin288

Some new pics of the upcoming 2011 Sonata! Sweet!

http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2009/08/21/new-hyundai-sonata-sedan-fully-- undisguised/

:shades:

berri

Kind of looks like an Azera which isn't a bad thing!

explorerx4

it looks really good, but i think it's too big to be a Sonata.

backy

Just like the Accord is too big to be an Accord.. but it is.

explorerx4

i guess at some point we will find out.

plekto

Ecch. Nice car, but the styling screams cookie cutter design school. Same jellybean curves and high belt-line.

Now the Hyundai Tiburon coupe, by comparison, looks different. So it can be done...

cannon3

Looks too close to new Fusion style in my book.

backy

Wait until you see full photos in full light. Then I think you'll see little resemblance to the Fusion. More along the lines of the CC and Mazda6.

The interior is light-years ahead of the Fusion's in style, IMO.

neile457

that's the front end off an Avalon, not a Fusion. The Fusion looks a lot better

backy

The Avalon is much more boxy and squared-off than the Sonata. Sonata has different shaped grille (both have horizontal bars), different shaped and much larger headlamps, more contours and a fastback roofline. Not a whole lot of similarity I can see. I think there's more similarity between the Sonata and the ES than the Avalon, or Fusion for that matter.

mz6greyghost

It looks a LOT more like just about ANY current Toyota/Lexus compared to a Fusion.

Is it an improvement over the current Sonata? Definitely.

Is it any better to the Fusion or Mazda6 (cars previously mentioned on this thread)? No way IMO.

mickeyrom

Hyundai Sonata is as good as any Fusion,except the Hybrid.It has been since 2006.As for styling,"beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".

acdii

If the Sonata has as good a quality build as the Veracruz, it is superior to the Camry. I would know, I have both a TCH and a Veracruz, hands down the Veracruz is a much nicer, and well made car than the Camry.

backy

And you are saying this before you even see a clear photo of the new Sonata, or see it in person? Okee-doke.

mz6greyghost

And you are saying this before you even see a clear photo of the new Sonata, or see it in person? Okee-doke.

...And one is not allowed to have/share an opinion on something based on a pic? Really?

Maybe my opinion will change when seeing it in person, but until then, I stand behind what I stated before: it looks to be an improvement over the current model, but I don't see much of anything shared with the Fusion or Mazda6, nor does it look any better than either of them.

explorerx4

i haven't seen too many awd sonata's.

thegraduate

Veracruz Quality > Camry Quality...

As it should be... it costs a good 10,000 more than a Camry.

backy

And one is not allowed to have/share an opinion on something based on a pic?

Sure. I did say "okee-doke", did I not? If you don't think a new design looks good based on a few grainy, dim photos, OK by me. Shoot, I didn't think the 2010 Fusion looked very good from the first photos I saw of it. And when I saw it up close, my opinion was solidified. Now, the Mazda6, that is a looker. I have a feeling that car plus maybe the CC were the main inspirations for the 2011 Sonata.

nomoreford2

I was thinking of getting a G6 V6 since the prices are almost rock bottom on them now, but is this car as really bad as consumer reports says it is, the reviews make it seem like something form the 80's. Its very similar to the Malibu/Aura which gets good reviews and had identical parts. Just cant see how its gets such bad reliability ratings unless its the usual american car bias going on.

james1982

nomoreford2:

There are many great resources to use to help in your decision process. Serveral of those resources are right here on Edmunds. Check out the "True Cost to Own" feature, as well as owner reviews. Here's a link to some owner reviews on this site:

http://www.edmunds.com/pontiac/g6/2009/consumerreview.html

I will say that you need to be a little bit weary of the customer reviews on this site. Here's why: Everyone is excited about his/her new car. They only see the good things, and the new car smell causes them to overlook the negatives. Keep that in mind when you read the 'new-owner' reviews.

You may also want to consider picking up the 2009 Consumer Report magazine for vehicle reviews. I don't think CR has any kind of "usual American car bias going on", but, if you're unwilling to trust them, then don't bother.

My personal opinion on the matter is this: I would not purchase a discontinued vehicle/brand. Eventually, parts will become scarce, and technicians will no longer 'specialize' in Pontiac. If you only plan on keeping the car for a few years, it won't be a problem. However, if you're planning on keeping the car for the long haul, you may have problems in the future. That's just my opinion.

stephen987

The G6 was (I think) the first version of that platform to hit the US market, and it got lousy reviews because of poor quality control, as well as problems with the feel of the electric power steering and complaints about a poor balance between ride and handling. The car has been somewhat updated since, and many of the original criticisms may very well have been addressed, but I'm not sure the press has kept up.

I'd be more inclined to go for a Malibu myself. I like the looks better, and it just gives the impression of being better assembled. Plus, of course, I have greater confidence in the staying power of my local Chevy dealer and the survival of the Chevy brand.

jeffyscott

I'm certainly no fan of anything GM, but some of these comments are just silly.

I would not purchase a discontinued vehicle/brand. Eventually, parts will become scarce, and technicians will no longer 'specialize' in Pontiac.

I have greater confidence in the staying power of my local Chevy dealer and the survival of the Chevy brand.

Do you guys really think that one can not take their Pontiac to a Chevy dealer and that the parts are not nearly all the same? Do you really think that there is a difference between technicians at a Pontiac dealer vs. those at a Chevy dealer?

stephen987

Specialized technicians? Heck, no one specializes in Pontiac now, nor has anyone done so since the late 1970s when GM started its "corporate engines" policy. So yeah, that one's silly. The mechanical components are, of course, nearly all the same for similar platforms across multiple GM lines.

But body parts, trim pieces, etc. are not. And in my experience owning three GM vehicles, those components tended to deteriorate more quickly and require more frequent attention than the mechanical or electrical systems. Furthermore, the resale value (a/k/a insurance value) of a vehicle is tied very closely to its ability to continue to look good as it ages.

So there is a case to be made for buying the Malibu over either the G6 or the Aura, based on GM's apparent plans to make Chevrolet the core brand.

james1982

Do you guys really think that one can not take their Pontiac to a Chevy dealer and that the parts are not nearly all the same? Do you really think that there is a difference between technicians at a Pontiac dealer vs. those at a Chevy dealer?

I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Are you 100% SURE that you can take your Pontiac to a Chevy dealer for service indefinitely without there ever being a problem due to it being a discontinued brand? Are you REALLY 100% sure on that?

What you're saying, jeffyscott, certainly makes sense, but, I'm not 100% positive things would go without a hiccup. As such, like I said in my original post, in my opinion, I would not buy a discontinued model/brand.

That doubt is enough to keep me away. Someone else might not care. That's a personal choice.

stephen987

I certainly wouldn't count on being able to make use of an extended warranty on a Pontiac or Saturn four or five years from now.

akirby

The law requires parts to be made available for at least 10 years even if a vehicle or entire brand is discontinued.

james1982

The law requires parts to be made available for at least 10 years even if a vehicle or entire brand is discontinued.

That's interesting. I did not know that. It still wouldn't change my mind, but thanks for teaching me something new. I guess that's a federal law?

fushigi

Are you 100% SURE that you can take your Pontiac to a Chevy dealer for service indefinitely without there ever being a problem due to it being a discontinued brand?
Why wouldn't we be? Virtually everything on the vehicle other than the skin will be common GM components. The engine, trans, major electricals, and whatnot are all from the same parts bins. Before the 3.6L V6 came along, think of how many different GM vehicles used the 3.8 Series. Body work and interior trim are the only potential issues I can see, and even for those I see it more a matter of _immediate_ availability v. having to wait for parts to come from a central warehouse.

Also, remember when GM shuttered Oldsmobile? They provided Olds buyers with a warranty good at any GM dealer. I remember the local Cadillac dealer advertising their ability to do work on Olds cars. Why would any dealer's service department walk away from more potential revenue?

stephen987

The law requires parts to be made available for at least 10 years even if a vehicle or entire brand is discontinued.

How would that work if the company itself ceased to exist or ceased to do business in the US? Who, exactly, would be responsible for making these parts available?

m6user

I think it all boils down to price paid. If someone likes the car and can get a G6 for literally thousands less than a Malibu or something similar, plans on keeping it say 10 years and driving a lot miles, then it could be a very good deal. I'm sure the person asking this question would probably like a Malibu too but the reason the question was asked pertained more to the money issue versus many other buying decision factors.

I also think the bad reputation of the G6 was blown out of proportion. I don't have any GM vehicles now but I have owned many in the past and cannot say that I had any that were lemons by any means.

Body parts will be available as there were tons of G6s produced for the rental industry and if nothing else there will still be inventory in parts yards for many years to come.

nomoreford2

I originally wanted a Pontiac G8, but thought parts might be a issue down the line since it was made for 2 yrs here, but most cars will not need a major part replaced within the 1rst 5yrs now adays unless its gets wrecked. The best cars seem to be the new fusion, taurus, mazda6 and malibu considering how ugly accord got in 1 yr and boring camry have become outside of se models, with the altima not looking any better. But the 2010 Fusion Sport seems to be the best bang for buck as far as looks and performance. I just considered a G6 because i test drove a 08 GXP and it was very nice.

james1982

I own a '09 Hyundai Sonata GLS and LOVE it. You might want to consider at least test driving it.

Personally, I think the G6 looks nice, I just have reservations about purchasing a new one for for reasons already mentioned. But, again, that's just me.

I think most people agree that the new '10 Taurus is a sharp looking car. But, if price is a main factor here, you're not going to get a great deal on it right now.

backy

If you really like the G6, you might consider buying a slightly used car, maybe one with the GM certified warranty. You'll save more than 50% off new and if it's been prepped well, probably can't tell it from new unless you look at the odometer.

Also, keep in mind that just because the basic platform is similar to that of the Malibu and Aura, there are huge differences between them. That platform was changed for the Aura, and again for the Malibu.

I've driven the G6 a few times and while I would never pay a new-car price for one, if I could get one for well under $10k with low miles and like-new condition, with an extended warranty, I might think about it. But I'd get the I4 vs. the V6.

acdii

I own a 1999 F350 Dually Crew cab Diesel truck, has 130,000 miles on it. A friend of mine has a 2005 Tahoe, also 130,000 miles. His is falling apart, the engine/drivetrain are fine, but the body, and interior are falling apart, whereas the 350 is holding up quite well, the drivers seat has some wear, and the red reflectors on the doors fell off, but aside from that the interior is in great shape, the body has a nice shine to it, and none of the trim has come loose, or fallen off, and it still runs good as the day I bought it. My F350 is 11 years old, built in 1998, his Tahoe is 4 years old built in 2005. What does that tell you about the quality of the parts? My mom has a 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis, the paint looks like crap, and the car needs some body work, but that is due to hitting things and neglect, but the car runs and drives great, and aside from the radio not turning off, the interior is in great condition, seats still look like new, and none of the parts inside are showing cracks, or other signs of failing. This car has not been in a garage for years either. Can anyone say the same for a GM car of this year? You can knock Ford all you want, but they do have better quality in their cars than GM does.

m6user

Who the heck was knocking Ford products or parts??? Trucks, especially work trucks, can have vastly different use and care. One example means nothing. I'm sure there are many out there who could come up with the same type of example only the roles would be reversed. Methinks you doth protest too much!

james1982

Are we about to venture into another Ford v. GM debate?

m6user

That's not on my agenda. You'd have to ask the original poster.

mz6greyghost

If you're looking for the "sportier" side of the midsize sedan class, The Mazda6, Altima 3.5SE, and Fusion Sport should be at the top if your list. I'd also check out the Subaru Legacy and VW Passat.

IMO, the Camry, Accord, Malibu, Sonata and Optima are a little too "vanilla" if you're looking for a driver's car in this class.

For the record, I have a '04 Mazda 6S with 83K miles, with it's only problem being a faulty fuel filler cap. It's still a blast to drive, and it's a fun car whether it's on a long road trip, or just commuting to work everyday.

One more thing: If you like the G8, you'll detest the G6. IMO they're two completely different cars (RWD vs. FWD, high-performance V8 vs. 4-cyl/V6, etc.), and the G8 is a HUGE improvement in performance, interior materials, fit-and-finish, etc. compared to the G6.

Well, except maybe fuel economy...

As far as parts/service is concerned, besides the 10-year rule in terms of parts availability, I have a co-worker that still owns an Alero and Aurora, and has had NO problems with finding parts or getting service on either car.

jeffyscott

Are you 100% SURE that you can take your Pontiac to a Chevy dealer for service indefinitely without there ever being a problem due to it being a discontinued brand? Are you REALLY 100% sure on that?

I don't have a Pontiac, but if I did my answers would be yes. GM still exists, why would you have any more concern about a discontinued model that happens to have had "Pontiac" on it any more than a discontinued model that says "Chevrolet"?

I could understand some concern if it were Hummer or Saturn, as those are being sold by GM.

akirby

No different than Oldsmobile or Plymouth.........

berri

I'm thinking its going to get harder to get parts as you car ages regardless of whether its a discontinued brand. The economics of the industry may pressure them to stop making parts sooner. Of course, there is always after market, although that may be harder on discontinued models unless they have a big following.

ergsum

You guys may have already seen these:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2009/08/spy-photos-2011-kia-optima-gets-ey- e-catching-new-design.html#more