Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott

The real issue, isn't any of that, though. It's that the automatic starts out too low and shifts too early to just get good (advertised) MPG ratings. You get a predictable bog bog go go behavior on every shift unless you flog it.

I do not think this is universal. I don't find that my Mazda6 does that unless I am accelerating very, very slowly, like at 2000 rpm, in which case the shifts are just a bit early for my taste. Normally I accelerate at 3000-4000 rpm and the shifts are not too early. With heavy acceleration it shifts at redline.

I have never noticed early shifts at all, under even light acceleration, in my wife's Jetta with a 6 speed auto.

plekto

I never said that an automatic was unsafe. Just that it's such a large difference in city traffic that it feels like I can literally dance around the slugs in the other lanes. I want to go, I just simply do it and always shoot past them before they can ever react and deal with the automatic deciding what gear and then responding. My last manual was a 120HP 4200lb truck and it would get in and out of traffic faster than most V6s. I had to rev it hard to get it to do that, but the difference between a manual and automatic is drastic if you're doing anything other than flooring it in a straight line.

jeffyscott

You kinda missed the point, for a little 4 banger, those numbers are nothing to brag about. The 2.5 4 in the Fusion gets 27 MPG combined. EPA 23/34/27.

I guess I do miss the point, Ford's 4 cyl 2.5 gets about the same mpg as VW 5 cyl 2.5 :confuse: What's the point again?

According to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm, the 2011 4 cyl Fusion gets combined 25 or 26 mpg (The 26 mpg is only for the S version, so for most the Fusion is a 25 mpg 4 cyl). The 2011 Jetta is 27 mpg, two mpg better than the majority of 4 cyl Fusions. Even a Focus with a 2.0L at 28 mpg is only 1 mpg better than the Jetta.

From everything I see the VW engine is not out of line with the competition, so I don't understand where your "gas hog" comment is coming from.

I also can reference my own real world, where my wife's Jetta with the 2.5 gets about the same mpg as my Mazda6 with a 2.3L 4 cyl.

jeffyscott

No 2.slow, the base engine is the 2.5 and there is a diesel and VR6

More details apparently just revealed today:
http://blogs.vw.com/passat/

aviboy97

No 2.slow, the base engine is the 2.5 and there is a diesel and VR6

Are we sure the 3.5L is not a VR design?

I noticed the new Passat will start around $20K, so, I take this to mean it will be extemely watered down just like the $16K Jetta.

I really have no idea what VW is trying to do here....

m6user

Sorry, but I just don't agree with most of what you say. Modern automatics are just fine and it's the rare exception that have a problem. Millions are sold every year and citing a few people that post on line is hardly evidence of a major safety problem.

Think about it, there are millions of people that drive midsize cars and how many post in here regularly?

This conversation about stick vs. auto has come up so many times and the same old weary statements come out again and again. Personally, I'm tired of talking about it. If it is so important to certain people why don't you start a thread "Stick vs. auto" and debate it there to your hearts content. I would be interested to see if it attracted any interest after the first few days because the arguments are just old.

There is a reason that 95% of all vehicles are sold with autos and it isn't because people are stupid or lazy. It's because 95% of the people don't look at driving to work or hauling the kids around as a joy ride or a day at the track. It's called transportation from point a to point b.

So to come in here and consider it your lifes work to convince everyone that they driving a stick is just the cat's meow is, in effect, calling them stupid or lazy.

crkyolfrt

You are very confused, but I'm not surprised u don't realize it. I am NOT trying to convince anyone to do anything! I am merely pointing out certain deficiencies that are inherit in 'modern even moreso than older' autos. It is not my fault your beloved automatic has these deficiencies. You make it sound like this has been going on for ages, yet automatic indecision to the extent of issues that are surfacing lately, are relatively new! At least the time spent while it processes, is new due to longer processing times when it does get fooled. If your tranny doesn't get fooled the way you drive, or if you have never driven an auto that got confused, well good for you. But that sure doesn't mean just because u have not encountered it, it does not exist. You indicate that perhaps manual lovers have this self-righteous mission to convert everyone, yet you don't see the irony in your defense of the autos?

And you totally ignored my train-hit example! Ok....

That is a shame you are getting tired of the auto vs manual debate when you read car threads. The fact is, it proves how significant the topic is. No matter what thread you go to, you will find chat about the engine and transmission as being influential to the discussion. It's just the way it is, and the fact that it comes up so often, proves that very point. Don't fight it.

backy

The fact is, it proves how significant the topic is.

The automotive marketplace (in the USA at least) has already decided how insignificant this topic is. If it were a significant topic, sales of manual-transmission cars would not be the small numbers that they are.

Your examples of the need to get out of the way of a train don't make the topic significant. Most people have already figured out how to stay out of the way of trains: don't get in their way in the first place.

P.S. If it's manual control you need, e.g. you are sitting in an intersection, in gear, and want to move out quickly without fear of the transmission "hunting" for the right gear, keep in mind that almost all of today's mid-sized sedans have manumatic transmissions that allow the driver to select a gear and stay in that gear--but with the convenience of an automatic when manual gear selection is not desired.

akirby

I can literally dance around the slugs in the other lanes. I want safeto go, I just simply do it and always shoot past them before they can ever react and deal with the automatic deciding what gear and then responding.

In other words - driving like a maniac. I agree - if you want to dart in and out of traffic like a maniac then a manual is better. For the other 99% of drivers who drive safely I guarantee that transmission response isn't an issue. And don't say you have to drive that way because it's hogwash.

akirby

This is nothing more than manual transmission enthusiasts trying to rationalize their preference. In the old days it was easy because manuals were cheaper, faster and got better mpg but the new automatics kill those arguments.

I love manuals and if I get a weekend sports car I'll definitely get a manual but not because I need to weave in and out of traffic or beat a train.

crkyolfrt

I simply can't believe how fixated and judgemental some people are.

I will spell it out for you and backy and jeffy..
I used the train as an example of just how much can go wrong in 1/2 a second. Geeeezzz
I'm not surprised you didn't make that connection though because you also accused me of being a maniac and I made no mention of darting in traffic. So you are generalizing all over the place. I gave a VERY real world left-turn-in-the-middle-of-an-intersection scenario in which timing can be of utmost importance. You will just have to pardon me for wanting to save mine and my family's lives by not lingering around an intersection while I wait for my slowly processing automatic to decide what it is i want it to do.

I could go and find links for many examples of this anomaly in autos, but why should I if you both can't be bothered to see for yourselves? I would waste a lot of time doing that work for you and you will still probably pooh pooh the info. You can lead a horse to water but you still can't make it drink if it refuses to.

I understand though that not everyone cares or can even grasp if they do care, the technological knowledge of a piece of machinery's internal bit's and pros and cons... so with internet being what it is, it is next to impossible to 'teach' someone some new knowledge if they refuse to be taught. What is disappointing though, is that the narrowness of mind and attitude is so self-righteous that there is no room for the thought that, maybe, just maybe....those guys know something we don't.

Furthermore, your comment "For the other 99% of drivers who drive safely I guarantee that transmission response isn't an issue." proves nothing. In fact, everyday there are white-knuckled steering wheel holders who drive in any way BUT aggressively, yet leave destruction and mayhem in their wake everywhere they go. And there is one thing you can take to the bank when picturing them...the VAST majority will all be driving (and i use the term loosely) autos..

m6user

You do confuse me I have to admit that. The topic comes up often because the same players belabor it time and time again. I'm not fighting it, just expressing my opinion that it bores me. If you don't like my opinion that's your perogative.

I have nothing against sticks and I would probably have one just for grins now that I don't have to commute anymore if my wife didn't object.

m6user

if they refuse to be taught. What is disappointing though, is that the narrowness of mind and attitude is so self-righteous

Maybe that is the disconnect here. Most of us actually come here to discuss midsize sedans not to be taught about the benefits of standard transmissions. I really wonder just how many auto trannies you've driven and how many times you've had a logic problem with them or are you relying totally on what you what you read on the internet. We all know that everything we read on the internet is factual, don't we. LOL.

Speaking of self-righteous, maybe the so called "teacher" should look in the mirror.

crkyolfrt

Just as it is your prerogative to ignore posts about transmissions that you don't understand or agree with.

But I also believe some people should never own a stick. This is proven by those who have had to do numerous clutch replacements in their vehicles.

I have to roll my eyes tho when I read about people defending autos for their FE ratings. The primary reason autos do as well as they do, is due to 5 and 6 speed ratios that more often allow the engine to work in its peak torque and efficiency rpm range, more of the time. But also, it is due to a LOT of technological complexity that shuts off fuel injectors on coasting and just tons of other 'marvels' many of which are responsible for the issues that started this debate in the first place. Look at the extreme measures mfrgs have had to take to get an auto in a similar fuel economic range as what a plain old stick with OD has been doing for years. And with less weight, less cost and way less complexity hence rendering much more longevity....
but i digress..

texases

While you probably know it, you are a troll. You have hijacked this discussion to your pet topic:

"Troll: someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

This is especially true because there's a complete Edmunds forum topic set up for discussion the merits of manual transmisisons.

crkyolfrt

"Most of us actually come here to discuss midsize sedans not to be taught about the benefits of standard transmissions."

oh come on...transmission choices should now be left out of sedan chat?

whatever, carry on...ignorance is bliss.

backy

What is disappointing though, is that the narrowness of mind and attitude is so self-righteous that there is no room for the thought that, maybe, just maybe....those guys know something we don't.

Yes, there is certainly a lot of narrowness of mind and self-righteous attitude here. :sick:

Lot of us here, myself included, like driving sticks. For whatever reason, we may not choose to do it with our current vehicles, or not all of our vehicles. That doesn't make the people who have made that choice less intelligent, less open-minded, or lesser people in general from those who have made a different choice.

As others have said, some of us get tired being beaten up about why people who don't drive cars with stick shifts are some kind of idiots. If you want to discuss why cars with automatic transmissions are unsafe, I suggest you take it to a discussion devoted to that topic.

crkyolfrt

A troll is someone who is too lazy to go back a couple pages and read one my earlier posts. Trolls don't go that much effort or put that level of personality or thoughfulness into their posts.

It was someone else who brought up auto tranny 'programming'. Since you weren't there and too lazy to be up to date, just who is the troll here?? Grab a mirror.

Here is a newsflash for you...threads have natural flow..topics go off on certain avenues and find their way back. While off on those evenues, things can be learned. Myths dispelled and lots of other cool things...don't knock it till you try it.

crkyolfrt

YOU guys were talking about auto tranny programming!

Never frig mind I'll go..

Kirstie_H

can go to our manual vs. automatic discussion. That's where the conversation belongs, and if anyone's still interested in talking about it, that's where they'll be. I didn't look up the link and post it... I figure you all know how to use the search function by now!

This is the last post on that issue... not the next-to-last.

urnews

This is the last post on that issue... not the next-to-last.

Thank goodness.

mz6greyghost

Just what I was afraid of: looks as boring as the Jetta.

backy

IMO it looks better than the Jetta--more aggressive grille, very sharp wheels etc. I am actually pleasantly surprised at how good it looks. Clean lines, very "European" and traditional. Not as stylized as the likes of the Sonata, but I think its looks will wear well. Wonder if the rear is Audi-esque ala the Jetta?

jeffyscott

Yes it is a VR6, according to this:

The all-new Passat offers three drivetrain options: a responsive 2.5L gasoline engine, a remarkably eco-friendly 2.0L TDI Clean Diesel and a powerful 3.6L VR6.

Which is from the first article at the link I had given.

m6user

Saw some pics of the rear and it looks just like the Jetta rear IMO. I agree that it's design, while certainly not cutting edge, looks Euro and will probably wear well over the years. The interior looks similar to present Passat which is a good thing since they cheapened the Jetta's interior so much.

No mention of the 2.0T that has been the mainstay for the Passat. Kind of strange.

backy

Maybe they figure the 2.0T with only 200 hp is no match for the likes of the Sonata/Optima/Regal turbos. With the 2.5L and V6, they have engines that match most competitors in power, plus the unique alternative in this class of the TDI. Not a bad start in powerplants.

Good news about the interior. If the quality is comparable to others in the class, and the ride and handling are VW-ish, it could be a good car, especially at the new lower price point.

berri

I don't want to hear any more "fuddy duddy" Camry comments. This one looks pretty plain Jane to me (I know, but it has a nice personality!).

jeffyscott

I think more American's are willing to pay for 6 cylinders than are willing to pay for a turbo and that is why they skipped that engine.

trainer1366

@ Suydam: -- Just because a car sells more does not make it great. Hmm..I think it's called great marketing.
The other models are just too bland in exterior design, in my opinion. Yes, they all are great as far as reliability and interior features, yet some of us prefer a bit of a WOW! factor in exterior design.

Toyota is a bit too arrogant with pricing, especially after recent recalls, lawsuits,etc. $30-32K for a fully loaded, bland Camry? Too much $$ for so little in looks. Lastly, the kidney donation remark I made was to explain that I can't give up (not sell) an essential item, whether it is a kidney or too much loot for an auto that I feel no excitement for.

texases

When a loaded Chevy Cruze goes for $26k, $32k for a loaded Camry (or Accord, or whatever), is not surprising. It's simple: if the price is too high, people won't buy it. Nothing 'arrogant' about it.

stickguy

I actually like that more than the current one. Much classier than the sonota, and somewhat like a cleaned up, upscale Optima.

tenpin288

Interesting article today on msnbc.com about Hyundai's rise.

Hyundai on the rise

jeffyscott

I agree. To me the Sonata styling is over-done (as is the Mazda6). I guess I like more understated styling or what some call "bland".

I don't like the interior pictures they are showing of the passat, as I do not like wood or wood grain materials for car interiors. But from reading about it, the wood is only on the top trim level.

aviboy97

Good news about the interior. If the quality is comparable to others in the class, and the ride and handling are VW-ish, it could be a good car, especially at the new lower price point.

The lower price point scares me. What did VW take out to get it that cheap? Remember, the entry level Jetta is so bare bones that it is laughable. I highly doubt the entry level Passat will be anything great. My guess is it is purely a price leading ad car for the sole purpose of generating traffic.

I have seen a few new Jettas on the road and they look so boring and outdated. There is really nothing eye catching about the design at all. I expect more from VW.

acdii

Hyundai has come a long long way since the first junkers hit the market. If I had purchased the AWD version of the Veracruz, I would still own it, it is a really nice car, super quiet, comfortable, nice ride, plenty of power, and very well built. After owning it 2 years, and driving it in slushy snow, being it was FWD, and the tail end decided it didn't like being on the road, I had to look for an AWD version, but I couldn't find a Veracruz to replace it that was affordable. The good news is, the trade in value on the Veracruz is high, got back money on it.

mz6greyghost

I have seen a few new Jettas on the road and they look so boring and outdated. There is really nothing eye catching about the design at all. I expect more from VW.

So true. To me, the Jetta (and now the Passat) looks like VW just gave up. They're both similar to the last-gen Sonata and Optima in the fact that their styling is too generic.

I also expected more from VW, but between the Jetta and Passat, they seem to have thrown in the towel.

backy

The lower price point scares me. What did VW take out to get it that cheap?

I dunno. What did Ford take out of the Fusion to make it start at about the same price as the new Passat? What did Mazda take out of the Mazda6? What did Hyundai take out of the Sonata? What did Kia take out of the Optima? What did... you get the idea.

aviboy97

I dunno. What did Ford take out of the Fusion to make it start at about the same price as the new Passat? What did Mazda take out of the Mazda6? What did Hyundai take out of the Sonata? What did Kia take out of the Optima? What did... you get the idea.

There is a big difference between what those manufactures do, and what VW is doing. As we saw with the Jetta, their entry level Jetta at $15,995 is virtually a tin can with absolutely no personality. VW is now taking what was a car starting at a whopping $27,900 to a car that starts under $20,000. Mazda, Ford, Honda and Hyundai have always offered an entry level mid sizer at a bargain price while not stripping them of every feature. VW has already shown us what happens when they lower the price, you get absolutely NOTHING for your money.

So, I ask you, what did we lose by taking out nearly $8,000 worth of equipment? My guess is a hell of a lot more then just a few features. I bet the VW personality has gone with it....

backy

One article I read said that VW is saving a bunch on the NMS just moving manufacturing from Germany to the USA. They have also put a lower-cost engine (2.5L vs. 2.0T) in as the base engine. Two biggies right there.

As for the new Jetta being a tin can... the reports I've read have said it is a very solid car. Less personality, yes. (Vanilla sells, vanilla sells, vanilla sells...) A laughable base engine, yes. Lower-quality interior bits than before (although most likely equal to or above most competitors). But a tin can? Hardly.

So I'll ask again: what have Ford, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, and all the rest taken out of their mid-sized cars that start near $20k (same as the NMS)? Or is this one of those "it only applies to VW" things?

jeffyscott

You beat me to it...I was gonna say they left out the 2.0T and expensive German labor.

backy

On further reflection, here's some other things VW might have taken out of the base NMS to bring the starting price down to ~$20k. All of these are standard on the 2010 Passat sedan, which lists at $27k:

- 6-speed Tiptronic (almost all other mid-sized family cars charge extra for an AT)
- 17" alloy wheels (no competitors have 17" alloys standard; very few have any kind of alloys standard)
- power moonroof (no competitors have this standard)
- 8-way power driver's seat (do any competitors offer a standard power seat?)
- heated front seats (not standard on any competitors I know of)
- Height-adjustable passenger seat (some competitors don't offer this on ANY trim level)
- Leatherette seats (competitors have cloth standard)
- Leather trim on doors, shifter, and wheel (not standard on competitors)
- Compass, fog lamps, 8-speaker stereo etc.

So there's lots of cost-cutting that VW could do on the Passat to bring it down to $20k without excising the VW-ness of the car--just make the base content more comparable to competitors.

googonabike

I don't know (and don't want to know) what Ford took out.., but Hyundai/KIA did not take out anything, to the contrary they put modern, powerful and efficient engine(s), a litany of standard features into elegant shells, not to mention quality and reliability . The same cannot be said about VW and its "dog" 2.5 in latest Passat, and ancient 2.0 in the Jetta

backy

Hyundai/Kia didn't have to take anything out... the prices of their mid-sized sedans have shot up in recent years, as the quality and content have improved. So they were able to fund improvements like the Theta II and the 2.0T and their new 6AT (which VW has offered for many years, but I digress).

I like the Sonata and Optima a lot. But I prefer the ride/drive VW offers to what Hyundai/Kia offer. That is the one thing I would miss most in the NMS if that characteristic did not survive.

snowallergy

We'll see how long they'll be able to justify the prices. They being Kia and hyundai. I like the new kia optima but the sonata's front looks like the face of an angry Korean. :mad:

Some TSB's, complaints or a recall will lower the prices fast.

dash5

Midsized sedan wins Cars.com best of 2011: Kia Optima

Mostly I'm surprised it didnt go to one of the electrics, either the Leaf or Volt. They say the Cruze came in second in the voting in fact.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/01/platinum-awards.html

“The Optima delivers outstanding fuel efficiency and a good driving experience – better on both fronts than the [Hyundai] Sonata. The smaller Chevrolet Cruze was the strongest runner-up in our voting on this award, but the Cruze’s impressive gas mileage comes with only one of its five trim levels. The fact is, the Optima’s mass-market drivetrain — a 2.4-liter four-cylinder and six-speed automatic — renders 27 mpg in combined EPA city/highway ratings, and you can get that in the mainline LX and EX trims. That matches the most efficient four-cylinder competitors; you’d have to get a hybrid family sedan to beat it.”

The Optima edged out these five other outstanding nominees:

* BMW 5 Series
* Chevrolet Cruze
* Chevrolet Volt
* Honda Odyssey
* Nissan Leaf

jeffyscott

I did not realize all that was standard on the current Passat.

It appears that the old Passat was recently really only available it what is probably equivalent or close to what will be the SEL in the new one. Also a few years back, when there was a more normal base level Passat it started at, I think, about $22-23K...and that still had "leatherette" and the 2.0T and was built with expensive German labor.

dash5

The Passat (much like the Hyundai Sonata) looks infinitely better in particular colors and at certain angles:

In Blue

This message board is bonkers, here is the other link to cut and paste:

http://www.vwvortex.com/albums//Volkswagen/Passat/Passat%20VII%20(US)/Detroit%20Auto%20Show%20Photos/2012-volkswagen-passat-028.jpg

aviboy97

So I'll ask again: what have Ford, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, and all the rest taken out of their mid-sized cars that start near $20k

Again...they never took out anything...they have offered base models from the get-go. When compared dollar for dollar, VW usually comes up short. Maybe be moving the Passat production to the States will save a few bucks, but, time will tell.

backy

I guess you didn't see the long list of features that VW has on the 2010 Passat that don't appear on the base models of competitors. So one could say that long list of features is what the other automakers "took out" to sell their mid-sized sedans starting at $20k. (Also consider what the it costs for a turbo Sonata or Optima--they charge a premium for that engine over the base engine.) Looks like VW is starting to play the same game as the others--including moving manufacturing to NA.

tlong

The Passat (much like the Hyundai Sonata) looks infinitely better in particular colors and at certain angles:

Translation: it's not inherently a very attractive car. :shades: