Midsize Sedans 2.0

benjaminh

I'm probably going to get a 2016 Accord for my next car sometime in the next year. But I have to admit I like the Acura TLX 2.4 too. This reviewer of the TLX really likes the Precision All Wheel Steer, which is an exclusive feature no other car in this price range has. At the 6.5 minute mark he explains PAWS and then really slings it through a corner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0saQ0ac8QLA

stickguy

the EX a turbo or standard engine? if it is the base 4, I can't see going that high (certainly not on a trade) since they are slashing prices severely to clear out the 15s before the new model arrives. But, RWTV is the place to start. and Carmax for a reality check.

also, can you pull out and save a bunch of the stereo stuff? amps and subs? Not worth probably taking the doors apart for those.

stickguy

I love the TLX. last time at the dealer, there was a base in a dark brown/red I loved. I think the only thing keeping it from being perfect was not having BLIS on the base model.

nyccarguy

His Optima does not have the turbo motor

benjaminh

I think the 2016 Kia Optima, which is due out soon, will be an almost all new car. Here are some pix from C & D. Looks sharp imho:

http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2016-kia-optima-photos-and-info-news#1

The only problem I have with the design, is that it's another sedan with rear window design and thick rear pillars that create big blind spots from the driver's seat. Looks good, but for me that would be a "no sale" right there. Otherwise, I think KIA quality, performance, and design are quite good now.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

I love the TLX. last time at the dealer, there was a base in a dark brown/red I loved. I think the only thing keeping it from being perfect was not having BLIS on the base model.

Glad I'm not the only one here who thinks the TLX is a nice looking car. But yes, given the thicker rear pillars compared to the Accord I wish it had the blind spot monitoring system on the base model too. And now that Accord has CarPlay/AndroidAudo on EX trims and above, it seems like the TLX should have it too. But Motor Trend says there won't be any major changes for the TLX for 2016....Hope they're wrong about that. Or maybe a tech update doesn't count as a major change?

benjaminh

The 2016 Honda Accord site went live today. New colors, wheels, and trim levels available. Plus Apple CarPlay and AndroidAuto on EX and up:

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/

ab348

Big step backward on the wheel designs, except for the Sport and Touring models.

benjaminh

ab348 said:

Big step backward on the wheel designs, except for the Sport and Touring models.

I feel mixed about the EX/EXL wheels myself, but imho they're somewhat better than the rather plain jane wheels on the 2015 EX/EXL.

benjaminh

Positive review of the 2016 Accord:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/car-reviews/2016-honda-accord-first-drive/

"The 2016 Accord maintains its dominant position as the best midsize sedan.

....The 2016 Accord, unlike the Camry, seems to effortlessly check every relevant box for midsize sedan/coupe shoppers. Pair the four-cylinder with a CVT transmission and it’s wonderfully fuel-efficient. Spring for an EX or above trim level and you’re rewarded with the latest infotainment technology — in this case the smartphone-mimicking Apple CarPlay and Android Auto systems. Get back to basics with a six-speed manual-equipped Accord Sport and there’s a fun yet tame driving experience to be had. Load up a Touring model and travel in blissful quiet and comfort. You get the idea – the 2016 Accord is a shape-shifting vehicle that consumers would be hard-pressed to fault....

As for the Accord’s driving dynamics, it’s clear that even as a coupe, even with the V6, and even with a manual transmission, this is no sports car. But if that piece of information doesn’t bother you, there’s a lot to love about how the 2016 Accord drives. In Sport and Touring trim, the steering responsive is sharp (though not accompanied by much feedback), cornering is flat and fluid, and both the four and six-cylinder engines have plenty of poke.
Inside the cabin, even in the lowest of trims, the 2016 Accord’s layout is smart, the materials feel high-quality, and visibility is excellent. The front seats are comfortable and supportive, the rear seats have plenty of legroom for adults, there’s ample interior storage, and button layout is intuitive. At cruising speeds, there’s very little road noise in the cabin and it feels like both commutes and long trips would be a breeze. The 7.0-inch display is responsive and easy to read, even in direct sunlight. To complement Honda’s brilliant safety technology, Honda expects to receive a five-star safety rating from the NHTSA and a Top Safety Pick Plus designation from the IIHS....

If the crossover craze has yet to take hold of you, the only argument against the 2016 Honda Accord is that it’s acceptably good at everything, and therefore an everyman’s car. If you want to stand out from the crowd and a Marino Red, manual-equipped Accord isn’t distinguished enough for you, then you’re probably in the market for a Mazda6....

akirby

That sounds more like a paid advertisement than a review.

What if I want a hybrid, plug-in hybrid or AWD?

benjaminh

akirby said:

That sounds more like a paid advertisement than a review.

What if I want a hybrid, plug-in hybrid or AWD?

Yeah, some parts of it do seem a bit much....

And you're right that people looking for AWD or a hybrid will have to look elsewhere.

berri

Does the 2016 have better noise insulation like the new Pilot supposedly incorporated. The Accord is decent to drive, but just too much road noise for my taste.

benjaminh

berri said:

Does the 2016 have better noise insulation like the new Pilot supposedly incorporated. The Accord is decent to drive, but just too much road noise for my taste.

All Accords up to the year 2012 had a lot of road noise. I owned a 2002, and still own a 2008, and unfortunately road noise was/is a weak spot for both of them. Starting in 2013 Accords became a lot quieter, and my wife's 2013 Accord bears that out. For 2016 they've made some slight improvements, but the big change already happened at the start of this generation of Accord.

I think if you haven't yet driven this generation, you'll be pleasantly surprised. That's not to say it's particularly better than the competition (although our 2013 Accord seems quieter than the recent 2015 Camry we had as a rental car), but just that Accord has caught up in this one area where it used to be behind....

benjaminh

The 2016 Buick Verano is now made in China:

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1508-report-buick-to-import-chinese-built-cars-the-u-s/

http://www.buick.com/verano-small-luxury-sedan.html

It has begun....

suydam

Next year according to the article. Not a big surprise though.

robr2

suydam said:

Next year according to the article. Not a big surprise though.

Hyperbolic story is hyperbole.

GM is preparing for negotiations with the UAW. This type of posturing goes on all the time just before negotiations. Read the article closely. The words "may" and "predicts" are used multiple times in the article. Reuters is merely reporting some rumors without actually doing any research.

Here is a good outline from another forum:

Verano is currently made at Orion Assembly with Sonic. Orion is getting Bolt "and another vehicle" next year. So far, people are saying the "other vehicle" is Sonic but GM can move Sonic back to Korea pretty easily so the "other vehicle" could be Verano. GM didn't say what the "other vehicle" is on purpose because of UAW negotiation. Additionally, Sourcing Verano from China is a stretch when Mexico has plenty of room... The new Cruze is moving to Ramos Arizpe but it has plenty of capacity left for fellow D2XX platform next gen Verano (or Envision... see below). And another key UAW moving piece puzzle comes in play here - Lordstown where "Cruze Limited" is being made for rental fleets has no other products. One can see that Cruze Limited production level will start to drop once the new Mexican Cruze hit the streets. The UAW would very much like the Verano to go to Lordstown or stay at Orion. GM is saying hey, we can move this to China... is just negotiation subterfuge. GM has three options here: Lordstown with some UAW concession, Stay in Orion, or Ramos Arizpe.

Regal is currently made at Oshawa Canada. Regal sells in such low numbers now that the most logical thing to do is probably to discontinue it altogether. Importing it from Germany makes some sense since the Opel plant is going to be way under utilized. But it's probably cheaper to keep Regal in Oshawa or move it to Fairfax with LaCrosse. So again, pure UAW contract talk posturing.

Encore is staying in Korea for sure. Trax is also coming from Korea so it's completely unreasonable to think that GM will source one from China and the other one from Korea... what would be the point? The logistic costs will overwhelm any potential cost saving. Potential wildcard... Encore and Trax are G2XX platform car like Sonic. And so is the new Bolt... If I was doing production planning at GM, I would want the more profitable CUV G2XX production in the US and the less profitable Sonic to go away. So Encore + Trax + Bolt at Orion makes a lot of sense to me.

Envision is for sure not coming from China. GM can't keep up with demand of it in China so there is zero chance it will ship them to the US. Chevy Equinox and GMC Terrain are currently made in CAMI in Canada. Since they are moving to the D2XX platform with Envision (also Cruze and Verano), you can see how the pieces are starting to fall... Envision + Verano will be a nice get for UAW to land in Lordstown. But GM can build Envision at CAMI or Ramos Arizpe depending on volume. All these D2XX vehicles can be moved around without that much trouble.

ab348

I can't see sourcing from China as any worse than sourcing from Korea.

benjaminh

ab348 said:

I can't see sourcing from China as any worse than sourcing from Korea.

I feel mixed about Mexico myself. I'm glad we boost the economy of our neighbor to the South, but I'm not so thrilled about the jobs lost here. I think the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, both made in the USA down to their engines and transmissions, are more American than the Fusion made in Mexico.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

I can't see sourcing from China as any worse than sourcing from Korea.

X2

imidazol97

benjaminh said:

I'm glad we boost the economy of our neighbor to the South, but I'm not so thrilled about the jobs lost here. I think the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, both made in the USA down to their engines and transmissions, are more American than the Fusion made in Mexico.

Mexico does nothing to help the border problems in exchange for the jobs for their citizens.

Toyota and Honda are foreign companies. Are they producing all their cars in the US?

benjaminh

imidazol97 said:

benjaminh said:

I'm glad we boost the economy of our neighbor to the South, but I'm not so thrilled about the jobs lost here. I think the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, both made in the USA down to their engines and transmissions, are more American than the Fusion made in Mexico.

Mexico does nothing to help the border problems in exchange for the jobs for their citizens.

Toyota and Honda are foreign companies. Are they producing all their cars in the US?

99% of Honda's vehicles sold in North America are made in North America:

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

Of course, Honda now has a factory in Mexico too, which makes Fits and HRVs.

suydam

And the Toyota Camry is the most American of cars, with nearly all its parts not only assembled but made here.

mtnman1

berri said:

Does the 2016 have better noise insulation like the new Pilot supposedly incorporated. The Accord is decent to drive, but just too much road noise for my taste.

The Accord had way too much road noise in the 2015. The worst among the Fusion, Camry, and Legacy. I found it to be way over hyped in my opinion. I doubt the 2016 could be that much better. Only way to know is to test all the mid sized sedans you are interested in on the same roads.

mtnman1

With all respect to benjaminh and at risk of being ripped, I am wondering if he is a slightly biased toward Honda? Or does he have kids, grandchildren, or a hobby? I am starting to wonder seriously. I mean I like reading forums once and awhile, but most of the time I am with family, friends, running, fishing, or working.

socal_eric

benjaminh said:

I'm probably going to get a 2016 Accord for my next car sometime in the next year. But I have to admit I like the Acura TLX 2.4 too. This reviewer of the TLX really likes the Precision All Wheel Steer, which is an exclusive feature no other car in this price range has. At the 6.5 minute mark he explains PAWS and then really slings it through a corner:

Little bit late to post, although the implementation is simpler than previous generation Honda rear-wheel steering some might view it as another potential unknown for future reliability.

While the new P-AWS on the TLX does appear affective from some of the positive press, the brake-based torque vectoring and understeer control used in cars like the Focus and Fiesta ST is simpler and can also work extremely well (and other models are coming to market using similar Continental-Teves ABS units). Also for how dowdy some might think the overall package, the current Malibu and cars based on GM's Epsilon/Epsilon II platform have a passive rear-wheel steering designed into the suspension. While Chevrolet didn't market it there's a lot of info if you do a search for Saab's ReAxs on the platform-mate 9-3.

stickguy

had a nice 1K road trip this weekend in my 2015 Sonata. RT from philly area to NC and back through VA. great road trip car. averaged about 34 MPG overall, in mixed driving (including the scenic back country way home to skip another jaunt on 95 on a Sunday). Best leg was 205 miles from Fredericksburg back to Jersey today. By a miracle, traffic was moving, so was mostly around 70, and between 65-75, with a little local. That stretch was 36 MPG even. Pretty impressive for something that big and comfortable.

highly recommended for a travel car. comfortable, long range (last fill up it reset to 560 miles). excellent seats. great navi/infotainment set up. even was happy on the back country roads with plenty of curves!

Michaell

stickguy said:

had a nice 1K road trip this weekend in my 2015 Sonata. RT from philly area to NC and back through VA. great road trip car. averaged about 34 MPG overall, in mixed driving (including the scenic back country way home to skip another jaunt on 95 on a Sunday). Best leg was 205 miles from Fredericksburg back to Jersey today. By a miracle, traffic was moving, so was mostly around 70, and between 65-75, with a little local. That stretch was 36 MPG even. Pretty impressive for something that big and comfortable.

highly recommended for a travel car. comfortable, long range (last fill up it reset to 560 miles). excellent seats. great navi/infotainment set up. even was happy on the back country roads with plenty of curves!

Thanks for the review. Will have to give the Sonata a serious look see next year when my current lease is up. Other contender is the Mazda 6.

nyccarguy

Good road trip write up @stickguy. You seem happy with your Hyundai!

benjaminh

midsize sales for August:

Accord 40,931

Camry 37,592

Altima 32,327

Fusion 28,270

Sonata 21,818

Malibu 17,553

200 14,032

Optima 13,980

Passat 7,409

Mazda6 5,402

Legacy 4,281

stickguy

Camry toppled.

still surprised Nissan sells so many long in the tooth Altimas. but I guess they do go cheap.

Mr_Shiftright

Cheap and cheerful. The Altima is an inoffensive car--it doesn't do much very well, but it also doesn't do much badly.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

Cheap and cheerful. The Altima is an inoffensive car--it doesn't do much very well, but it also doesn't do much badly.

That's probably true for most of the competition, as well.

Mr_Shiftright

yep. Lots of people don't want any surprises whatsoever when it comes to an everyday sedan. Let someone else do the R&D on "cutting edge technology".

suydam

Having looked at one the last time around I have to say they have extremely comfy seats and a terrific Bose system. For a daily driver those 2 things go a long way.

wayne21

suydam said:

Having looked at one the last time around I have to say they have extremely comfy seats and a terrific Bose system. For a daily driver those 2 things go a long way.

We had a 2015 Altima 3.5SL for 8 months (the shortest time we've ever owned a car). We had the bose stereo in our car and if you were impressed by it you should sit in an entry level camry and turn on the stereo. You will be in absolute awe. We found the bose stereo to be very disappointing and I'm guessing Omar Bose would be rolling in his grave if he knew his name was associated with the "upgraded" stereo in the Altima.

suydam

It's very subjective of course, but the Bose in the 2013 top level trim (I can't remember Nissan's system as they keep changing it -- SL? SV?) we test drove was excellent. Much better than that of the Accord we actually bought. I drove the Camry hybrid at the same time, did not care for the sound in it. The best sound system we have had to date was the one in our old Nissan Maxima. We used to joke that we should just go out to the car to listen to music!

brian125

2015 Camrys 10 speaker JBL system does sound very good. When I test drove the Camry what I did not like is the glare coming off the dash . Terrible . Hard to get in and out of this model for big guys I'm 6'1. Did not like the seats at all. Prior years were more comfortable. The Camry is very quite inside with little to no road noise.

Camry still needs work to lure my money.

wayne21

When we decided to replace our venza we took a look at the new camry. The 2015 has the same cheap, hard, shiny plastic that our 2010 venza had. It lacked upgrades in technology we were interested in so we wrote Toyota off. We opted to go the acura (RDX) route as the wife wanted to sit higher. One thing we miss from the Toyota, however, was the quiet ride. It was very quiet! The RDX, however, has lots of wind noise.... but a happy wife is a happy life.

explorerx4

Just back from a round trip to NYC in the Fusion. About 250 miles, A/C on, 4 people in the car, usual parking garage stadium traffic. Average 31mpg.
You can feel the extra passengers in the handling, but not the power.

Sandman6472

Drove a 2015 Malibu at work yesterday and was surprised at how well it drove...comfortable with ample power when needed. Everything was where it should be and the exterior was very unoffensive. Don't see why GM doesn't sell more of these to be honest. About an hour later, got into a 2015 Cruze LTZ and though I didn't like the power under foot, the interior was o k and the exterior a bit bland. After seeing a pic of the new 2016, it looks much better and hopefully will give Cruze sales a shot in the arm. If I was going this size in a GM model, would definitely prefer the Verano as it seems and feels to be a more upscale vehicle. But when these two are compared to their import counterparts, not sure what I'd do. Price wise, can't beat GM but there's just something about certain imports which more folks prefer for some reason.
But must admit, GM does make some impressive vehicles right now but needs to improve their mpg's for one thing and push the envelope on their exteriors. Once they do these couple of things, think their sales will definitely keep pace with the top models in their segments.

The Sandman

stickguy

what year RDX wayne? I have never noticed much wind noise (some tire noise). Really seems quite to me, but I have gotten the impression that I am not as sensitive to it as some other people are!

suydam

If the Verano got WAY better FE I would consider one.

wayne21

stickguy - it's a 2016. I've pretty much tuned out the tire noise and don't hear it unless the radio is off. But the wind noise is always there.

imidazol97

sandman_6472 said:

But must admit, GM does make some impressive vehicles right now but needs to improve their mpg's for one thing and push the envelope on their exteriors. Once they do these couple of things, think their sales will definitely keep pace with the top models in their segments.

My '14 Malibu LT2 is getting broken in. Drove from Dayton to Cincinnati on interstate at speed limit for a street car show in Newport a couple Sundays back and then to late lunch and on to a weekly cruise in. Total of about 150 miles. I'd guess 10 miles were on city streets before being back on the interstate. The indicated mileage was 38.3 mpg and based on an earlier check driving to Pigeon Forge it should be within 1 mpg. I'd like to see how another midsize would have fared on my same trip. I believe many go by the published miles on other vehicles rather than real world results. Car is not yet broken in so I expect better mileage by a bit. But I've never been someone to hang a car purchase based on 1 mpg difference between their EPA ratings.

imidazol97

suydam said:

If the Verano got WAY better FE I would consider one.

The 2.4L engine was rumored to have been replaced with a 1.6L turbo as the base engine. I suspect using that engine is a legacy problem where GM has to build them and they have to go somewhere. I actually factored the 2.5L engine in the Malibu into my decision. We drove the Verano. Malibu with 18-inch wheels was better for us for ride, room, and mileage. See post above about mileage as car reaches 4000 miles.

berri

The current Malibu is a nice car, but the media has consumers all worried about backseat legroom and trunk space, even though for many that isn't really an issue.

imidazol97

berri said:

The current Malibu is a nice car, but the media has consumers all worried about backseat legroom and trunk space, even though for many that isn't really an issue.

The Sonata/Optima and TLX have less legroom, but you'd never know it from the way the media folks harped on it for the Malibu. It's almost like politics the way the media over emphasizes an item.

suydam

I think one review mentions something and everyone else starts looking for it. I do see a lot of sameness in published reviews nowadays. That said, legroom would be noticeable because Hondas and Toyotas have a lot of it.

wayne21

imidazol97 said:

berri said:

The current Malibu is a nice car, but the media has consumers all worried about backseat legroom and trunk space, even though for many that isn't really an issue.

The Sonata/Optima and TLX have less legroom, but you'd never know it from the way the media folks harped on it for the Malibu. It's almost like politics the way the media over emphasizes an item.

I think you may be on to something about how the media addresses things. Just doing a quick search (I did some research on Acuras prior to buying one) I found it interesting that Acura combined the TL and TSX and came up with a smaller car - the TLX (interior space-wise) than either of them, but you would never know that when reading the car magazine reviews. I can't speak to the Malibu, I rented one and found it to have a rather large interior. Case in point on the acuras:

NOTE: The EPA categorizes any car with a total interior volume under 109.9 cu ft as a "Compact Car":

2014 TL (midsize according to EPA)

EPA Passenger Volume = 98.2 cu ft
EPA Cargo Volume = 13.1 cu ft
EPA Total Interior Volume = 111.3 cu ft


2014 TSX (compact according to EPA)
EPA Passenger Volume = 94.5 cu ft
EPA Cargo Volume = 14 cu ft
EPA Total Interior Volume = 108.5 cu ft

Acura TLX: (compact - even smaller than the TSX - according to EPA)

EPA Passenger Volume = 93.3 cu ft (smaller interior than the TL or TSX)
EPA Cargo Volume = 13.2 cu ft for base and Tech (14.3 cu ft for Advance) EPA Total Interior Volume = 106.5/107.6 cu ft (smaller total volume than TL or TSX - about the same size as the civic)

2014 ACCORD
EPA Total Interior Volume = 119 cu ft

2014 COROLLA
EPA INTERIOR VOLUME = 110.5 cu.ft. (larger than the TLX)

2014 CIVIC
EPA Passenger Volume = 94.9 cu.ft.
EPA Carog Volume = 12.5
EPA Total Interior Volume = 107.4 cu.ft. (larger than the TLX)