Midsize Sedans 2.0

stickguy

Lots of new models will be out by the time I am actively shopping in Q4. Too bad the nice new stuff won't be selling cheap yet! But deals to be had in December on leftover 2017s hopefully.

PF_Flyer

Are you having trouble figuring out how to use all of the technology in your car? If you're overwhelmed with how to operate your navigation system, bluetooth, park assist or other advanced technology feature, a reporter would love to talk to you about your experience.

Please send an email to PR@Edmunds.com by Friday, March 17, 2017.

explorerx4

I really like the start/stop feature my Fusion has. I find that I'm more patient when sitting at red lights.
I can get caught at a couple of long ones on the way to work.

[Deleted User]

cski said:

Only about 10% lighter on these particular rotors. They will definitely stop the car faster, but you don't want to tear chunks out sed meaning of your pads in the process.
These are not racing rotors. They are zinc infused so they don'trust and all the screws are counter-sunk with smooth edge AND I already have high end ceramic pads installed. Any more questions? Oh, I only have 129 miles on the new rotors.

I am having them installed on the 25th!!!! , and he is coming here to do the job. My friend Scott hooked me up with a master mechanic that was let go because of issues between him and the new owners. I spoke to him for a half hour, and I have the word of my best friend as well that he does top notch work. $225 to install!!!! That is half what shops charge. Also, I have done brake jobs many times before, so I will be watching to make sure he has too. If I start heaaring Ummmm?? or aahhhh??? coming out his mouth he is done for.

counter-sunk with smoth edges

[Deleted User]

Oh, I said "I only have 129 miles on the new rotors". What I meant was "I only have 129 miles on my new pads".
Sorry about that.
Yes The rotors are attached to the hub with two screws, to assist with installation..The rotors are pre-drilled to accommodate the two screws that are a little below the surface of the rotors. If my terminology is incorrect I am sorry. I am a computer engineer, not a carpenter.

Are you trying to say something about an error in my terminology or, the quality of the OEM Nakamoto rotors??? If so, why? I am sorry for the eager tone of my discussion.. However, the rotors WILL be installed next Saturday and I WILL be updating their feel, increased or decreased braking, and pad longevity. Also, you all know I will be honest about my decision to install them.

[Deleted User]

backy said:

I made my annual pilgrimage to the Greater Twin Cities Auto Show yesterday. For the first time in many years, I spent almost no time looking at mid-sized sedans, because there's very little new in that realm. I went to check out the new Camry, but all they had was a sports model on a tilted, rotating platform (read: can't get inside) that was absolutely hideous, IMO. It was white with black roof and black trim and wheels. My oldest son was put off by the looks also, and I told him the lower trims might look better. He noted it looked "angry" in front, and in fact a lot of cars including most Toyotas seem to have that "angry" nose these days.

I spent most of my time looking at new small cars like the Hyundai Ioniq (my younger son's favorite car from the show, and one of my favorites also), the Kia Niro (another favorite of mine), the Toyota iA (the only Toyota I'd consider buying except the 86), the Mazda3, the Civic hatchback (I like the old style Civic hatches better), and the Impreza ($27k and no rear center armrest??), and small SUVs like the new CR-V (nicely done inside and out), Tucson, Sportage, CX-5, HR-V (love the magic seats!), and Rogue Sport (like a Rogue but with a cramped rear seat).

I won't need to get a new car for myself or my wife for at least 3 years, but if I had to get one today (e.g. car is totaled in an accident) I'd probably get an Ioniq or Niro or slightly used Mazda3 for myself and a slightly used CX-5 or HR-V for my wife (she needs the higher seating position of an SUV and doesn't like driving a brand new vehicle).

Angry "faces" on sports or sporty cars/sports cars/muscle cars have been a selling point for 60 years...and now appear on almost every car...as kids with little money want either an angry, or a funky car. If I was a kid I would go for a Veloster....and if insurance prevented that a Mazda 3 Coupe or hatchback.

andres3

cski said:

backy said:

I made my annual pilgrimage to the Greater Twin Cities Auto Show yesterday. For the first time in many years, I spent almost no time looking at mid-sized sedans, because there's very little new in that realm. I went to check out the new Camry, but all they had was a sports model on a tilted, rotating platform (read: can't get inside) that was absolutely hideous, IMO. It was white with black roof and black trim and wheels. My oldest son was put off by the looks also, and I told him the lower trims might look better. He noted it looked "angry" in front, and in fact a lot of cars including most Toyotas seem to have that "angry" nose these days.

I spent most of my time looking at new small cars like the Hyundai Ioniq (my younger son's favorite car from the show, and one of my favorites also), the Kia Niro (another favorite of mine), the Toyota iA (the only Toyota I'd consider buying except the 86), the Mazda3, the Civic hatchback (I like the old style Civic hatches better), and the Impreza ($27k and no rear center armrest??), and small SUVs like the new CR-V (nicely done inside and out), Tucson, Sportage, CX-5, HR-V (love the magic seats!), and Rogue Sport (like a Rogue but with a cramped rear seat).

I won't need to get a new car for myself or my wife for at least 3 years, but if I had to get one today (e.g. car is totaled in an accident) I'd probably get an Ioniq or Niro or slightly used Mazda3 for myself and a slightly used CX-5 or HR-V for my wife (she needs the higher seating position of an SUV and doesn't like driving a brand new vehicle).

Angry "faces" on sports or sporty cars/sports cars/muscle cars have been a selling point for 60 years...and now appear on almost every car...as kids with little money want either an angry, or a funky car. If I was a kid I would go for a Veloster....and if insurance prevented that a Mazda 3 Coupe or hatchback.

The Neon sold with its "HAPPY" face. Of course owners weren't happy if they kept them past the warranty period.

[Deleted User]

andres3 said:

cski said:

backy said:

I made my annual pilgrimage to the Greater Twin Cities Auto Show yesterday. For the first time in many years, I spent almost no time looking at mid-sized sedans, because there's very little new in that realm. I went to check out the new Camry, but all they had was a sports model on a tilted, rotating platform (read: can't get inside) that was absolutely hideous, IMO. It was white with black roof and black trim and wheels. My oldest son was put off by the looks also, and I told him the lower trims might look better. He noted it looked "angry" in front, and in fact a lot of cars including most Toyotas seem to have that "angry" nose these days.

I spent most of my time looking at new small cars like the Hyundai Ioniq (my younger son's favorite car from the show, and one of my favorites also), the Kia Niro (another favorite of mine), the Toyota iA (the only Toyota I'd consider buying except the 86), the Mazda3, the Civic hatchback (I like the old style Civic hatches better), and the Impreza ($27k and no rear center armrest??), and small SUVs like the new CR-V (nicely done inside and out), Tucson, Sportage, CX-5, HR-V (love the magic seats!), and Rogue Sport (like a Rogue but with a cramped rear seat).

I won't need to get a new car for myself or my wife for at least 3 years, but if I had to get one today (e.g. car is totaled in an accident) I'd probably get an Ioniq or Niro or slightly used Mazda3 for myself and a slightly used CX-5 or HR-V for my wife (she needs the higher seating position of an SUV and doesn't like driving a brand new vehicle).

Angry "faces" on sports or sporty cars/sports cars/muscle cars have been a selling point for 60 years...and now appear on almost every car...as kids with little money want either an angry, or a funky car. If I was a kid I would go for a Veloster....and if insurance prevented that a Mazda 3 Coupe or hatchback.

The Neon sold with its "HAPPY" face. Of course owners weren't happy if they kept them past the warranty period.

I think many Neon owners were not happy with their cars even under warranty.I bet complaints like "My mirror fell off" or "The hood blew off in the wind and the engine ejected", etc etc. etc were common. (well maybe not EXACTLY the examples I quoted), but you get the idea.

js06gv

andres3 said:

cski said:

backy said:

I made my annual pilgrimage to the Greater Twin Cities Auto Show yesterday. For the first time in many years, I spent almost no time looking at mid-sized sedans, because there's very little new in that realm. I went to check out the new Camry, but all they had was a sports model on a tilted, rotating platform (read: can't get inside) that was absolutely hideous, IMO. It was white with black roof and black trim and wheels. My oldest son was put off by the looks also, and I told him the lower trims might look better. He noted it looked "angry" in front, and in fact a lot of cars including most Toyotas seem to have that "angry" nose these days.

I spent most of my time looking at new small cars like the Hyundai Ioniq (my younger son's favorite car from the show, and one of my favorites also), the Kia Niro (another favorite of mine), the Toyota iA (the only Toyota I'd consider buying except the 86), the Mazda3, the Civic hatchback (I like the old style Civic hatches better), and the Impreza ($27k and no rear center armrest??), and small SUVs like the new CR-V (nicely done inside and out), Tucson, Sportage, CX-5, HR-V (love the magic seats!), and Rogue Sport (like a Rogue but with a cramped rear seat).

I won't need to get a new car for myself or my wife for at least 3 years, but if I had to get one today (e.g. car is totaled in an accident) I'd probably get an Ioniq or Niro or slightly used Mazda3 for myself and a slightly used CX-5 or HR-V for my wife (she needs the higher seating position of an SUV and doesn't like driving a brand new vehicle).

Angry "faces" on sports or sporty cars/sports cars/muscle cars have been a selling point for 60 years...and now appear on almost every car...as kids with little money want either an angry, or a funky car. If I was a kid I would go for a Veloster....and if insurance prevented that a Mazda 3 Coupe or hatchback.

The Neon sold with its "HAPPY" face. Of course owners weren't happy if they kept them past the warranty period.

There was a time period when my company reached a new low with the company cars being provided. We had a slew of Sundance/Shadow cars in the early 90s, so naturally when the Neon replaced them in '95 we got those too. A white '95 Neon Sport was my first company car. It was awful in just about every way imaginable, but the really sad part was that it was still better than the last run of Ford Tempos we had alongside them. My particular car was also a little more "upscale" than the non-Sport Neons that followed in the next couple of years. The '97 Sunfire I got after doing 2 years' time in my Neon seemed like a Cadillac in comparison.

andres3

Funny, when my Neon Sport was new, I didn't think it was awful. When it ran, I actually liked the car. The problem was that something or other caused a shop visit every 4 months or so, and after the 3 year warranty expired, those visits became more like every 3 months, and were several multipliers more expensive each time.

Also, by the time it was 3 years old all the fasteners and adhesives holding the car together seemed to fail, and it would rattle and make noises so frequently and numerous that you were better off counting the parts that didn't rattle or make noises.

The 3-speed auto was lame and short-lived. The AC system had a 3 year lifespan. The head gaskets were a guaranteed failure in the first 50K miles.

My aftermarket sounds system was good though! The stock one wasn't bad.

I'm really glad I never got hit in a collision by another vehicle (or collided myself into another vehicle) while I was in it. Anti-lock brakes and dual front airbags were the best thing about that car.

js06gv

andres3 said:

Funny, when my Neon Sport was new, I didn't think it was awful. When it ran, I actually liked the car. The problem was that something or other caused a shop visit every 4 months or so, and after the 3 year warranty expired, those visits became more like every 3 months, and were several multipliers more expensive each time. Also, by the time it was 3 years old all the fasteners and adhesives holding the car together seemed to fail, and it would rattle and make noises so frequently and numerous that you were better off counting the parts that didn't rattle or make noises. The 3-speed auto was lame and short-lived. The AC system had a 3 year lifespan. The head gaskets were a guaranteed failure in the first 50K miles. My aftermarket sounds system was good though! The stock one wasn't bad. I'm really glad I never got hit in a collision by another vehicle (or collided myself into another vehicle) while I was in it. Anti-lock brakes and dual front airbags were the best thing about that car.

The frameless doors that made it sound like the windows were down on the highway, when they were actually sealed shut, was my favorite....

andres3

js06gv said:

andres3 said:

Funny, when my Neon Sport was new, I didn't think it was awful. When it ran, I actually liked the car. The problem was that something or other caused a shop visit every 4 months or so, and after the 3 year warranty expired, those visits became more like every 3 months, and were several multipliers more expensive each time.

Also, by the time it was 3 years old all the fasteners and adhesives holding the car together seemed to fail, and it would rattle and make noises so frequently and numerous that you were better off counting the parts that didn't rattle or make noises.

The 3-speed auto was lame and short-lived. The AC system had a 3 year lifespan. The head gaskets were a guaranteed failure in the first 50K miles.

My aftermarket sounds system was good though! The stock one wasn't bad.

I'm really glad I never got hit in a collision by another vehicle (or collided myself into another vehicle) while I was in it. Anti-lock brakes and dual front airbags were the best thing about that car.

The frameless doors that made it sound like the windows were down on the highway, when they were actually sealed shut, was my favorite....

hah! That was caused actually by the ill-installed weather stripping seals around the doors and windows. They would start to come undone and slip out from the seams; allowing extra air and wind inside the cabin.

My TTS has frame-less upper windows, and doesn't suffer the same problem. Interestingly, they programmed the car to lower the windows 1/4" every time the door is opened, and after you shut them, the windows close upward completely. German-engineering.

Of course, (if/when) I need a new window regulator right after my warranty expires, I'll be less enthusiastic.

js06gv

andres3 said:

js06gv said:

andres3 said:

Funny, when my Neon Sport was new, I didn't think it was awful. When it ran, I actually liked the car. The problem was that something or other caused a shop visit every 4 months or so, and after the 3 year warranty expired, those visits became more like every 3 months, and were several multipliers more expensive each time.

Also, by the time it was 3 years old all the fasteners and adhesives holding the car together seemed to fail, and it would rattle and make noises so frequently and numerous that you were better off counting the parts that didn't rattle or make noises.

The 3-speed auto was lame and short-lived. The AC system had a 3 year lifespan. The head gaskets were a guaranteed failure in the first 50K miles.

My aftermarket sounds system was good though! The stock one wasn't bad.

I'm really glad I never got hit in a collision by another vehicle (or collided myself into another vehicle) while I was in it. Anti-lock brakes and dual front airbags were the best thing about that car.

The frameless doors that made it sound like the windows were down on the highway, when they were actually sealed shut, was my favorite....

hah! That was caused actually by the ill-installed weather stripping seals around the doors and windows. They would start to come undone and slip out from the seams; allowing extra air and wind inside the cabin.

My TTS has frame-less upper windows, and doesn't suffer the same problem. Interestingly, they programmed the car to lower the windows 1/4" every time the door is opened, and after you shut them, the windows close upward completely. German-engineering.

Of course, (if/when) I need a new window regulator right after my warranty expires, I'll be less enthusiastic.

My Mustangs, prior and current, do that too. Gives a much better seal.

berri

My experience has always been that whether initially or down the road, frameless glass car windows will end up as a bad story.

Sandman6472

Be curious to read about the results of adding the better slotted brakes on the Optima. Am thinking of doing something similar with my Golf once I need front/rear brakes. Am betting there are better/cheaper brake parts in the aftermarket that will do a better job than the oem brakes. Not that hard on brakes but, like them to bite when touched enough so that there's minimal bake pedal fade, those few inches that when pushed, nothing happens. Prefer a linear brake pedal feel with minimal brake dust.
Having the 30K service done in a couple of weeks and found out it includes the brake fluid being changed. Have heard that 3 years/36 months is the optimal time to do this procedure in most vehicles though most just pass on it. Had it done on my '06 Civic but closer to the 40K mark. Makes sense actually because brakes are one of the more important parts of any vehicle and have heard the fluid can break down with water or air or even dirt particles. Very glad that VW includes it in the 30K service, something we both prepaid for when paying for our vehicles. Since we'd both never owned German vehicles before, we erred on the side of caution and both bought the 20K and 30K at a supposedly discounted price.
So, will be very interested to hear about the results. Have found a very good indie VW/Audi shop right down the street so we'll have an option of who to use after our warranties run out. We both bought our vehicles and as long as they stay reliable and somewhat "cheap to keep", they'll both stay in the fleet. And so far, we're both very pleased with them both. With my passion for the automobile, am always looking ahead to the next vehicle even when I'm not in the market. Enjoy doing the research actually.

The Sandman

roadburner

js06gv said:

andres3 said:

js06gv said:

andres3 said:

Funny, when my Neon Sport was new, I didn't think it was awful. When it ran, I actually liked the car. The problem was that something or other caused a shop visit every 4 months or so, and after the 3 year warranty expired, those visits became more like every 3 months, and were several multipliers more expensive each time.

Also, by the time it was 3 years old all the fasteners and adhesives holding the car together seemed to fail, and it would rattle and make noises so frequently and numerous that you were better off counting the parts that didn't rattle or make noises.

The 3-speed auto was lame and short-lived. The AC system had a 3 year lifespan. The head gaskets were a guaranteed failure in the first 50K miles.

My aftermarket sounds system was good though! The stock one wasn't bad.

I'm really glad I never got hit in a collision by another vehicle (or collided myself into another vehicle) while I was in it. Anti-lock brakes and dual front airbags were the best thing about that car.

The frameless doors that made it sound like the windows were down on the highway, when they were actually sealed shut, was my favorite....

hah! That was caused actually by the ill-installed weather stripping seals around the doors and windows. They would start to come undone and slip out from the seams; allowing extra air and wind inside the cabin.

My TTS has frame-less upper windows, and doesn't suffer the same problem. Interestingly, they programmed the car to lower the windows 1/4" every time the door is opened, and after you shut them, the windows close upward completely. German-engineering.

Of course, (if/when) I need a new window regulator right after my warranty expires, I'll be less enthusiastic.

My Mustangs, prior and current, do that too. Gives a much better seal.


I think the first car that had that feature was the 1991 BMW 850i. From that point on Munich installed it in on all their coupes.

backy

I got a chance to drive a new Optima (1600 miles on it) when I needed a rental in San Diego this week. It was a base model, but very sharp looking in a dark cherry with black interior. I thought the interior was much nicer looking than that of the base Sonata, which I rented and drove for 3000 miles in December. The alloys were also very sharp for a base trim car. The car was smooth and quiet on the road, with plenty of power. About the only thing I didn't like about the car compared to the Sonata was that the Sonata's greenhouse seemed airier; I had a "sitting in a tub" feeling in the Optima. And the steering wheel controls were more confusing than the Sonata's (and also compared to those on my Forte5). But a very impressive car considering the price, and if I were in the market for a mid-sized sedan I'd give it serious consideration.

backy

No posts in nearly 3 weeks! Another sign that mid-sized sedans are a dying breed?

Why is that? So many great CUVs? Compact cars that have the interior room of a mid-sized sedan from not many years ago--and come in not only sedan form, but more versatile hatchbacks... for less money than a mid-sized sedan?

Think about it... if a person or family is going to buy a vehicle for primary use today, what would they tend to buy: a versatile CUV/SUV or hatchback or wagon, or a sedan? And consider what is becoming the 2nd or 3rd car for many families today: Uber, or Lyft, or car-sharing services.

Then there's the future impact of self-driving cars. THAT boggles the mind as to what it will do to the auto industry and all of the industries and businesses that support the auto industry. Not today, or tomorrow. But in 10-15 years, for sure. In that future state, most mid-sized cars that are sold (those that are still sold) will be purchased and maintained by only a handful of companies. Will we still have the stylish, powerful, fun-to-drive mid-sized sedans like we have today, ala Honda Accord, Mazda6, Ford Fusion, Kia Optima et. al.? Or will they be merely "mobile boxes" we schlepp around in from place to place, under computer control, while we play with our mobile devices?

stickguy

one of our cars is always going to be something with utility (like the RDX). And needs to be good enough to travel with when we need the room. The other car, can really be anything, but for various reasons is likely to be a sedan. But I am flexible, and would not mind a small CUV or wagon either.

berri

I think there is a good casualty to all of this - a full size rental car tends to be a bargain these days. I can live with it for a week or so.

stickguy

oh yeah. I forgot to add, to me, the larger compacts now (Elantra, Jetta, etc.) are actually what I consider mid sized, and more the size that I prefer. The primary advantage to the sonata, etc. size class is that even with the same engine, you get a much bigger gas tank!

suydam

So called midsize sedans have just gotten too big.

stickguy

yup. I consider the big ones like my Sonata to be full sized. Whenever I see it in profile it shocks me as to exactly how big it looks (and really is). Hey, if that is what you want, more power to you!

brian125

@Stickguy this might help you Re-capture your youth........... Sonata who?

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/first-impressions/2018-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-first-look.html

stickguy

just what I need for quick runs over to Target.

berri

Now is that runs as in driving quickly over to the store, or as in after you get a hefty speeding ticket fine driving there

explorerx4

Haven't driven my Fusion on any trips since I got it back in October. Still under 3k miles on it.
Did make a couple of trips to the airport and the weather has warmed up.
Been averaging 27 mpg, but the computer is sitting on almost 32 mpg.
I previously posted on another discussion that my SIL drove it and said the start/stop was much smoother than her XT5.

andres3

berri said:

Now is that runs as in driving quickly over to the store, or as in after you get a hefty speeding ticket fine driving there

I think that's the sales pitch to Police Departments. You won't be able to catch them for speeding tickets unless you have the same model yourself to catch them.

akirby

andres3 said:

I think that's the sales pitch to Police Departments. You won't be able to catch them for speeding tickets unless you have the same model yourself to catch them.

To which the classic answer is - you can't outrun a Motorola.

Mr_Shiftright

or a Eurocopter

explorerx4

Hyundai has 6K cash on the hood of the Sonata(16 or 17)!
17 actually has a financing incentive too.
Every mid size sedan just dropped in value.

stickguy

I got a flyer from my local dealer this week. You can do a nothing down lease (just pay tax and tags) on a Sonata SE with a payment below $200/month. Lot of car for the money.

ab348

Up here Hyundai is running national ads for an Elantra lease at $29 a week.

backy

How much up front?

andres3

It's funny they don't mention you can lease any car with enough money down for $29/week. Heck, why not start calling it $4/day. For the price of a Starbucks Cappuccino, you could drive XYZ; come on down!

andres3

stickguy said:

I got a flyer from my local dealer this week. You can do a nothing down lease (just pay tax and tags) on a Sonata SE with a payment below $200/month. Lot of car for the money.

Enlighten us on how high/low the SE model is in the Sonata lineup. What does it include/exclude?

andres3

stickguy said:

I got a flyer from my local dealer this week. You can do a nothing down lease (just pay tax and tags) on a Sonata SE with a payment below $200/month. Lot of car for the money.

Enlighten us on how high/low the SE model is in the Sonata lineup. What does it include/exclude?

stickguy

That is the base model. Still pretty well equipped. Comparable to a Camry LE I guess. Nothing fancy, and without the slick safety nannies.

ab348

Here's the blurb on the Hyundai Canada website:

stickguy

So $200 month for 7 years and you own it. I might prefer a pair of 36 month leases instead

andres3

I know there are "monthly" buyers. I ignore monthly payments and look straight to the bottom line for what I can afford and to negotiate the deal.

I find it hard to believe there are any "weekly" payment buyers out there. Just a sales 101 trick.

stickguy

Some great deals in this class. Even a $23k sticker sonata SE is pretty well equipped, and can probably get one for $18k street price, brand new full warranty. Makes buying used a tougher sell if that is all the car you need.

ab348

stickguy said:

So $200 month for 7 years and you own it. I might prefer a pair of 36 month leases instead

Yeah, it's a stripper model for sure. Cash price on the site is $15,249 Cdn, probably could get it for less.

Michaell

FWIW, that $1695 down on the lease ad equates to another $11/week.

backy

It's probably a wash. The difference is ~$5600, comparing the 7 year finance with 2 x 39 month leases. If the car is well maintained, it should be worth at least that after 7 years. The main benefit of the finance is nothing up front plus you can get out any time you want by selling the car. Leases are much harder to get out of. Given that, and the fact I maintain my cars well, I'd probably go with the finance--still a very low monthly payment.

stickguy

Spent more time driving the Passat. Liking it. Feels smaller than it is, mostly because of big windows and good visibility. Easy to drive. Quick too. Might keep on list if I want another big sedan, to get a cheap lease at year end. Would be quite happy to drive one like I have, for barely over $200/month! Only missing some version of navigation, and I think the 17s would have car play to address that. Otherwise, has exactly what I need, so all good.

ab348

Is the Passat the 1.8T engine? I was wondering how quick that combo was in a bigger car like that.

explorerx4

When I was in Ohio last week, I saw an ad on TV for 10k off Sonata's.

stickguy

yes, it was the 1.8t. very nice in this car. Not really that much heavier than a Jetta, so plenty of oomph. Plus it is a nice punchy engine that feels probably quicker than it actually is (which is still plenty quick)

Michaell

stickguy said:

Spent more time driving the Passat. Liking it. Feels smaller than it is, mostly because of big windows and good visibility. Easy to drive. Quick too. Might keep on list if I want another big sedan, to get a cheap lease at year end. Would be quite happy to drive one like I have, for barely over $200/month! Only missing some version of navigation, and I think the 17s would have car play to address that. Otherwise, has exactly what I need, so all good.

stickguy said:

yes, it was the 1.8t. very nice in this car. Not really that much heavier than a Jetta, so plenty of oomph. Plus it is a nice punchy engine that feels probably quicker than it actually is (which is still plenty quick)

I had a loaner Passat with the 1.8T, and enjoyed it a lot, as well. Wife even enjoyed it, which is saying something.

Could see that as my next ride, unless I get something else.