Midsize Sedans 2.0

baggs32

That is the essence of fair, consistent reviews, across the board, no matter what the price.

No, that's the essence of rating vehicles like appliances. Cars generate emotions and a Ferrari should not be rated using the same criteria as a Honda Accord. Two completely different products for two completely different purposes.

andres3

100,000 mile warranty from GM only applies to about 5 items. A vehicle has about ..... thousands of items?

andres3

True... but since I'm not a multi-millionaire, and like sports cars, I want a CT-type review of sports cars so I know how they'll do as "daily drivers." In addition to weekend spirited drives.

akirby

It's called the powertrain - you know, the engine and transmission, transfer cases, differentials, axles, wheel bearings, etc. That is at least a few hundred "items" and represents the 2 most expensive repairs on a vehicle - engine and transmission replacement. Most of the other "thousands" of items are cheap to replace by comparison.

You obviously don't own any late model (last 3 years) domestic vehicle. This isn't 1990 anymore.

Kirstie_H

I second that - I sure would rather have a 100K warranty covering the powertrain & transmission than I would one that covers the $100-200 items. Having used my power train warranty once, to cover the power control module ($1200), it is indeed a big deal.

Powertrain = stuff that makes the car go. A lot of the other stuff on any car just plain old wears out.

kirstie_h
visiting host

baggs32

but since I'm not a multi-millionaire, and like sports cars, I want a CT-type review of sports cars so I know how they'll do as "daily drivers." In addition to weekend spirited drives.


I can see that being useful for something like a sporty mid-sized coupe or the like but not a Ferrari or others like it. The latter is in no way, shape or form built to be a daily driver. The guys in Modena would take your car away if they knew you used it for that. :P

jd10013

I think you summed it up pretty well. some people seem to be stuck in the 90's. Now I'll admit that I won't buy domestic anymore (could change in the future of course)but it's not because of reliability. Ford, GM, build cars that will hold up as well as anything comming out of asia. they may average an extra problem or two, but a very, very small difference compared to 15 yrs ago.

bhmr59

I only average about 7K miles per year. So Hyundai's TEN YEAR/100K is more valuable to me than GM's FIVE YEAR/100K warranty.

Anyone who averages less than 20K per year gets a longer power train warranty from Hyundai than GM offers.

caaz

Lol....Kristie...ur a hoot....i luv ur comentaries...especially ur definition of Powertrain....."stuff that maes your car go "....lol keep up the good work

caaz

BTW....most car companys wont change the model year before April 1st....Not january...Anything after Aprail 1st will usually get the next model years designation......

Kirstie_H

Glad you like my "work." I am NOT super-saavy when it comes to vehicles, but I know what makes sense for me (not everybody, for me), and a long powertrain warranty makes my eyes light up in the same way that Tim Robbins in Shawshank Redemption does.

I am not a real GM fan, but strategically, I do feel that the extended warranty is a good business move for them. If they could just make a convertible that I like (read: not Solstice), we'd be talking.

kirstie_h
(really) visiting host

backy

Sometimes, sometimes not. Some manufacturers, Kia comes to mind, like to play the "halfsies" game, e.g. the all-new 2006.5 Optima (did the same thing when the Spectra was redesigned a few years ago). But it's getting more common to introduce a car very early in the year and slap the next year on it. Toyota has done this multiple times in recent years; Chrysler has done it; probably others I'm not remembering right now. I guess there's multiple reasons for this, including people seem to want the latest and greatest, but also it may save automakers money because they get almost two years out of one model year--assuming they shift to fall intros for subsequent years (not always the case, e.g. Hyundai has been starting new model years for the Sonata in spring since the '06 debuted in the U.S. in spring of 2005).

backy

Lest we forget in all the talk about the new Accord, there will be renewed competition from Hyundai next spring with the 2009 Sonata. The first pics are out, and reveal a Genesis-inspired snout, revised rear (hard to make out just how revised), and a new interior with Veracruz-esque dash. There are also reports of a second-generation 3.3L V6 for more power.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=121485

goodegg

Maybe the 2009 Sonata will be better received than the current generation. Sales have been way off on the Sonata considering the accolades and predictions.

Maybe a diesel version?

louiswei

I have to admit, the new Accord has definitely grown on me. I think it looks much better than the current generation, the front and side profile is executed much better. Not sure about the rear though, too much emphasis on the 5-series. Generally speaking it looks good but for some reason it doesn't strike me as a Honda.

Here are the pictures:









Source:Jalopnik

zzzoom6

that's pretty quick for Hyundai to be redoing the Sonata... I am surprised it's not doing too well since I think it is a great value. Granted, it's not a car that I found too appealing for my tastes during the few days I had it as a rental, but I was impressed at the build quality and the powertrain (except for manumatic downshifts that took way too long). In the end, I think it shows how much of a stranglehold Honda and Toyota has on this segment when a good quality car that is aimed at the same type of consumer that sells for several thousands less is overlooked so often. Even with Hyundai getting good press lately for reliability and solid build quality, they still have a long way to go before people forget or forgive them for making the shoddy cars of 15 years ago.

I think Hyundai is making a good move in trying to make the car visually more appealing and distinct; they need more than a "me too" ad campaign to succeed given the bad rep baggage they carry along. For the Sonata to do well, I think they need a car that says, "I deserve to be looked at as a solid car and don't need to be compared to others to be chosen." Most of the characteristics of the Sonata are very good; it shouldn't take much for them to start doing really well.

zzzoom6

Of all the angles, the front 3/4 view of the Accord is by far the best; it looks pretty good from that angle. But I still think the side profile has no flow and the rear 3/4 view has that strange headlight bubble and the back is just ugly. I'm surprised their leaking such complete views so early... Honda must be low on current model inventory and are just trying to slow sales of other manufacturers models until they can get the new Accord onto lots.

Anybody feeling the chrome handles? Yuck if you ask me...

backy

Three years is the typical timeframe for a mid-gen redux for Hyundai. The Gen 3 Sonata had a similar facelift after three years, with both the front and rear being restyled for 2002.

As for needing to be so good it doesn't need to be compared to other cars... I don't think any brand of mid-sized car is at that point, or will be anytime soon. It's a very competitive market.

backy

After seeing these clear photos from all sides, my thoughts are...

* Oh, look how they took the taillamps off the Sonata but didn't take the part that extends onto the trunk lid.
* The roofline is a dead ringer for the Optima (and many other cars too, but in this class, mostly the Optima).
* The side character line looks Acura-esque--I wonder if that's because in some markets, the car will be sold as an Acura?
* The door handles, especially the chrome ones, look too big for the car.
* The grille is really, really ugly. Hideous, IMO. I'm not sure why Honda would put a grille like that on an otherwise sleek-looking car. It looks very un-Hondalike, except maybe the Ridgeline. It reminds me of something Suzuki might do, or Subaru before they came to their senses.

oldcem

I'm glad you've had such good luck with Accords. The one I had turned into a bottomless money pit at 20K. You'll have a really hard time convincing me to buy another one.

Regards:
OldCEM

benderofbows

You obviously don't own any late model (last 3 years) domestic vehicle. This isn't 1990 anymore.

Some of you are making it sound like domestic vehicles have done a complete 180... however, my 2004 was a different story, requiring a shop visit every few months of ownership, starting from day three:

-Brand new, there was a whining noise from rear end at 15-20 mph (changed pitch as speed increased) in either 1st or 2nd gear; selling dealer stated problem could not be duplicated. The noise didn't worsen, although TSB’s were issued for improper fluid in rear diffs, which were known to fail.
-Rear passenger door wouldn’t open from inside at time of purchase; repaired under warranty.
-When cruising at low RPM’s, a sudden lift of the throttle (such as to switch to the brake in slowing traffic) would occasionally cause an extremely harsh bang and jolt from the transmission (the first time this happened I thought I had run something over). This problem faded somewhat after the manufacturer "fix" (see below) and seemed to improve with time and mileage, however it was still present after the transmission flush at around 40k miles.
-Hesitation shifting from park to drive, or drive to reverse (as in 3-pt turn), requiring use of throttle and followed by a very harsh engagement; a transmission solenoid was replaced and a transmission fluid additive was added to fix (all under warranty).
-Squeaky front suspension; very noticeable when driving over speed bumps; front suspension bushings replaced under warranty.
-Brake rotors rusted heavily around 15,000 miles, causing vibration when braking from high speeds; fixed under warranty (new pads, rotors turned); problem resurfaced and became more pronounced less than 4,000 miles later.
-Around 15,000 miles, humming noise from rear at 60-70 mph regardless of gear; only present when throttle open.
-“Hooting” noise from A/C around 2,000 RPMs; evidently common according to dealer.
-Rear ABS sensor failed -just- out of warranty, requiring a $60 part plus labor to install.
-Brakes were shot (again...) at 42k miles. Evidently the rotors would go first, then eat the pads...
-Lever to fold second row passenger seat had stopped actuating the internal release by trade-in (seat would not fold).

Funny thing was, on the Edmunds "problems and solutions" board, there were many people having these same problems, but we were all irritated mainly because our dealers acted like nothing was wrong...

What good is a warranty if the manufacturer constantly denies there is a problem and won't honor it?

jeffyscott

Honda and Toyota have the best 4 cylinder's in the business, and therefore many opt for that engine choice.

Hmmm...I thought they had the best V6, too...so why is that not what people opt for?

Ford doesn't have a viable or decent 4 cylinder, so everyone gets the "somewhat decent" V6.

That is a pretty extreme opinion. Are there any facts behind it? I'd like to know what specifically is unviable and indecent about the Ford/Mazda I4? Mine seems pretty viable and decent to me.

I think reality is that there is less difference between the I4s than there is between the V6s.

akirby

There was a recent vehicle that debuted on Jan. 2 with the next year's designation, but I can't remember which one.

jeffyscott

Anybody feeling the chrome handles? Yuck if you ask me...

Agree, but I would pretty much say that about any and all chrome on any car .

I do think the new Accord is a big improvement appearance-wise, though.

I too think it looks best in the front 3/4 view. Lose the chrome door handles on the gray one and it's not bad (the gray makes the other chrome less noticable).

akirby

At least at Ford the turnaround started with new models introduced after the 2005 model year. Fusion and Milan are equal to or better than the Camcords right now (even by CR standards) and that is almost a 180 from the 10 yr old Taurus. The new 500 (now Taurus), Explorer, Mustang, F150 have all proven much more reliable than previous models. Even the Focus is now a CR recommended buy after all the initial recall problems. Ford at least has made a significant process change in how they design and build vehicles and while I wouldn't call it a 180 it's at least a 135. The launch of the Edge and MKX was delayed almost a month because Ford requires the plant to run for 5 straight days without a single assembly defect. Several times they got to 3 or 4 days and had to start over. But they made it.

Yes, the dealer network is still a problem and the manufacturers unfortunately don't have much control over that. Not directly at least.

kdshapiro

Most people have good luck with Hondas. People do not generally say their Accord was a dud, but it happens. No manufacturer is immune from a lemon. But I feel the same way about Ford and Nissan. Would really have a hard time convincing me to buy another one.

kdshapiro

"Fusion and Milan are equal to or better than the Camcords right now (even by CR standards"

CR may think so, the buying public doesn't think so and neither do I. The Fusion has a long way to go before it becomes equal or better to a Camry or Accord. Not that it's a bad car, it's just that the Camry and Accord are that much better. The 2008 Accord will raise the bar even more, you can bet on it.

akirby

I was referring to quality and it wouldn't matter if the Fusion was twice as good as the Camcords in every possible category - they aren't going to win over Camcord loyalists overnight. There are way too many satisfied Camcord owners who won't switch until they encounter a problem or another vehicle comes out with some feature they decide they need.

And the 2009 Fusion will also raise the bar with an upgraded interior (see the Ford Flex for an idea of the new interior design), hybrid model, twin turbo direct injection 2.5L I4 and exterior styling that looks better than the 08 Accord (to me).

louiswei

hybrid model

This one I believe.

twin turbo direct injection 2.5L I4

Source please. What's Ford trying to do? Make a Fordspeed Fusion? :P

exterior styling that looks better than the 08 Accord (to me).

Pointless statement. First of all, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Second, if styling is really that important of a factor then IMO, Sonata, Aura and Fusion should be outselling the Camry/Accord by now.

Also, I am with those satisfied Camcord owners. I just don't see the point of messing with successful and proven purchasing decisions.

caaz

When Sonata....fusion///milan...etc. start to produce cars that go 300k miles...fairly trouble free like Cam-Cord....then you'll start to see them outsell..( if they keep their prices down) Also...IMO...the4 diesels will start taking over completely once they get a consistant 45mpg.

baggs32

Also, I am with those satisfied Camcord owners. I just don't see the point of messing with successful and proven purchasing decisions.

But some people want something different and you have to understand that. If you ask me the Sonata is the one, that if done better, threatens to outsell the CamCord because it is a bit more vanilla than a Fusion, Altima, Mazda6, etc. Those latter cars are more niche fillers if nothing else because they are edgier and have different personalities. They stand out in one or two categories whereas the CamCords don't really stand out in any specific categories and do everything rather well. The Ford F-150 and Explorer were always noted as being like that in MT which supposedly explained their appeal to the masses. Makes sense to me.

baggs32

Don't think this was mentioned here but there are some changes for the 2008 Fusion. Most notable are standard ABS and the new sport package which includes 18" wheels, a black chrome grille, and a sport tuned suspension.

I'm trying to find some pics of the new wheels and grille but am not having any luck so far.

akirby

It sounds like the Hybrid Fusions might be available next spring as opposed to next fall. I guess we'll find out at LA or Detroit auto shows.

As to the Twin Force I4 2.5L direct injection this has been hinted at by Derrick Kuzak and confirmed by an inside source. Power output is rumored to be 260 hp but with I4 fuel economy. A DSG type transmission called Powershift is also in the works but not confirmed for the Fusion.

akirby

When Sonata....fusion///milan...etc. start to produce cars that go 300k miles...fairly trouble free like Cam-Cord....then you'll start to see them outsell.

Oh please - most people don't keep cars more than 5 or 6 years at the most and I bet you can count the number of 300K camcords on two hands. 150K is a more reasonable target and there is no reason to believe any of the current mid-size sedans won't go 150K without major problems. It's not 1990 anymore.

backy

How many people do you know drive a car for 30k miles a year for at least 10 years? Not many I know of. Average miles on a car these days is around 12k a year. I drive a lot less than that. In the Rust Belt, ten years is a long time to own a car and still have it rust-free. (Come to think of it though, the only car I ever owned that showed rust after only five years was a Honda--a Civic.) If you peruse the Hyundai ownership discussions here, you'll see many reports from owners with over 100k reliable miles on their Hyundais over 5-7 years. That's enough to build a reputation for long-term reliability, IMO.

But Sonata outsell CamCord? Not anytime soon. Hyundai currently has neither the manufacturing capacity or dealer network to come anywhere close to Accord or Camry in sales volume. Their current production in Alabama is limited to 300k a year right now--and that must be shared with the Santa Fe, for which sales are surging. So if Hyundai increases sales of the Sonata from the current 12k or so to about 15k a month, that will max out capacity in Alabama if they do 10k Santa Fes a month. Then they have to find excess capacity overseas or expand the Alabama plant.

urnews

Sales have been way off on the Sonata considering the accolades and predictions.

Sales numbers would indicate that this is a true statement. Anyone have any theories as to why this is the case? Did the Ford Fusion steal its sales from the Sonata? Did some other model? Why would a car with such good reviews not sell as well as expected? It seems to be a mystery.

akirby

Some people just don't want to buy a Hyundai regardless of the product itself. I admit I'm one of them but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to someone else. The Fusion probably stole a few Sonata sales but not that many. It's probably a combination of several factors including advertising.

joe97

Did Fusion take away a few potential sales? Likely. There are cross-shopping all over the midsize segment so potential takeaways are likely for every car out there.

Here is one of the reasons for the fall:

Hyundai started a program to get "as many butts into the Sonata as possible". They sent a great number of units into fleet in 2006 in hopes for improved brand recognition.

The sales dip is reported by way of year-over-year (YOY) (e.g. June 2007 vs. June 2006). Of course, comparing the normal amount sold in 2007, and the large amount of units reported last year (2006), including the ones sent via the fleet program, would be a skewed comparison. I don't think it'd be surprising to see sales dip throughout the rest of this year using the YOY comparison.

The previous generation barely made 10K/month during its cycle, while the current Sonata has made that number stand up.

The other issue, as stated by backy, capacity restraint at the Alab. plant. Also, the demand for I4 were higher than Hyundai officials estimated.

urnews

I have to admit, the new Accord has definitely grown on me.

Louiswei, those are the best photos I have seen of the 2008 and my initial reaction is just the opposite of yours: I like the looks of the 2007s better. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Not sure about the rear though, too much emphasis on the 5-series. Generally speaking it looks good but for some reason it doesn't strike me as a Honda.

What is a "5-series?" Forgive my ignorance. I did have a similar reaction: That it doesn't remind me of a Honda much. But I don't know if that is a good or bad thing. Styling-wise, most of the Asian cars have a plain-Jane, lookalikeness to them, not very distinctive. Maybe the designs are too subtle for me to appreciate.

The Accords, Camrys, Sonatas, Kias, Subarus et al all look generic to me, even the Auras. That's one of the reasons why my wife and I chose a 2007 Fusion: Distinctive styling; it doesn't get mistaken for anything else. We consider that to be a plus but not everyone would, of course.

rooster7

Most of the national incentives for Nissans endend July 2, 2007 according to their website. Anyone know of the current incentives yet? The Murano specifically...

akirby

5-series - BMW. 528i, 530i, 545i, M5, etc.

urnews

Anybody feeling the chrome handles? Yuck if you ask me...

A minor point, to be sure, but that was my first reaction, too.

urnews

Not a very good report card, BenderofBows. What make and model car?

baggs32

twin turbo direct injection 2.5L I4

Source please. What's Ford trying to do? Make a Fordspeed Fusion?

Here is a small byte on it. More detailed info is available on some subscription site called autonews.com apparently but I don't have access to it.

goodegg

If you ask me the Sonata is the one, that if done better, threatens to outsell the CamCord because it is a bit more vanilla than a Fusion, Altima, Mazda6, etc

"if done better" ? It's hard to resist.....but...duh!

The Sonata over the Altima? I think Altima's HUGE sales lead over the Sonata is in no jeopardy.

goodegg

The other issue, as stated by backy, capacity restraint at the Alab. plant. Also, the demand for I4 were higher than Hyundai officials estimated.

You make it sound like there are NO Sonatas sitting on dealers' lots beacause every one they make is being snatched up quickly, and they can't make enough of them.

Not.

baggs32

"if done better" ? It's hard to resist.....but...duh!

The Sonata over the Altima? I think Altima's HUGE sales lead over the Sonata is in no jeopardy.


You're missing my point. I'm saying the Fusion, Altima, Mazda6, and others like them would never outsell the Camry or Accord because they are not nearly as mainstream and offer a more sporting experience overall. The Sonata seems to be the more mainstream car but it needs to be better to pose a threat. No matter how much better you make the others they just won't appeal to everyone.

jeffyscott

When Sonata....fusion///milan...etc. start to produce cars that go 300k miles...fairly trouble free like Cam-Cord...

So now the claims are for 300K trouble free miles...give me a break, that is not happening with any brand of car on any kind of regular basis.

baggs32

I have a hard time living with a vehicle for 30k miles let alone 300k!!! Of course it takes us a good 4 years to reach 30k.

benderofbows

urnews, that "not very good report card" was earned by a $30,000 Ford Explorer. I expected much more for that kind of money. The previous generation Explorers were solid, dependable trucks, but after the 2002 redesign they had widespread quality issues through at least 2004, most of which didn't show up on the "initial quality" studies.

Coming off of that experience, I had trouble seriously considering a less expensive Ford sedan, or any Ford for that matter. The biggest slap in the face was being able to go online and look up the TSBs that specifically detailed my problems, but not being able to get any of the dealers to help me out. Even more, the "fixes" suggested by Ford were just band-aids. You read the description of my problems. Fluid additives? C'mon, Ford.

This was 2004. I expected my new cars transmission to shift smoothly, my brake rotors to last more than 15,000 miles, and my engine to crank on the first try, every time. Ford didn't deliver that for me. It would be hard to give them another shot.