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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • I think the driving environment must have more to do with the mpg you get with the Fusion 2.0 than any other factor. I've gotten as much as 50mpg and as little as 20mpg in mine, and I usually get 30mpg combined with it, which is still 4mpg over its rating. I definitely don't have to drive it very carefully to do this, nor do I have to spend alot of time coasting with my foot off the gas. I don't floorboard it everywhere I go, but I do floorboard it from time to time, and I rarely coast at all, it's either gas or brake, so why do we seem to be talking about two completely different cars? It has to be where you drive it more than how you drive it. All of my driving so far has been in TX, mostly in DFW, Houston, San Antonio, and all points between them, but also in Galveston and Corpus Christi, so the only terrain I haven't driven my car in yet is genuine mountains. I also haven't driven it in any snow yet, but I have driven it in temps ranging from 30f to 100f, on congested city streets, congested city highways, and on open roads with plenty of hills and twists for the pure joy of real driving. I've driven it as fast as 100mph more than once too, so what's the huge difference that causes you to get abysmal mpg in it? I wish I knew, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet. I've driven mine with the wind and against the wind, and in every combination of windows up or down and moonroof open or closed, and none of those things have made any huge noticeable difference in my mpg, it may go up or down slightly, but not enough to explain why others think I'm making all this up just to rub salt in their wounds with theirs. There has to be an explanation for it, I just don't know what it is. I haven't done anything special. I use regular octane unleaded gas from WalMart, no special additives and no mods.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,249
    For this discussion, does the Audi A4 or A6 better fit into mid-size sedan?
    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,435
    You and I, Allen, are basically saying the same thing in different ways. My point was that if you drive like the EPA test, you will get close to those results. Most people do not drive that way however.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,435
    neither model fits this discussion very well, because they are in A near luxury or luxury class.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    I think the Jetta is more the culprit in the sales decline. It is about as exciting looking (inside and out) as a toaster. The low end "value" "S" model sports a torsion beam axle and the 2.0 engine with a whopping 115 hp, up ZERO from 1994. It was dubbed the "two-point-slow back then, so now it is just plain unacceptable. The flat black slab across the lower grill is awful, as are the gigantic flat black mirrors, which match the flat black interior I have just dubbed "coal mine graphite".

    It's supposed to be a young persons car, not a Moscow bureaucrat's new fleet replacement for the Trabant.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,411
    "It's supposed to be a young persons car, not a Moscow bureaucrat's new fleet replacement for the Trabant."


    All true.

    But they are having trouble selling the Passat to the point where they have cut production....
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,992
    Mt Fusion seems to really like warm weather. Driving to work the last couple of days, my mileage went from 28.9 to 29.2 to 29.4.
    Some people are hang on every test result by C&D or CR. They should test those same cars in Denver.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,411
    edited July 2013
    VW plans to bring Phaeton back to U.S. as Passat fades

    FRANKFURT (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen AG plans to bring back the Phaeton luxury sedan to the United States as the carmaker looks to reignite flagging growth in one of the few markets it has been unable to crack....

    The Phaeton, a pet project of VW Chairman Ferdinand Piech, last year sold about half the volume worldwide that the company initially targeted. Its U.S. comeback is part of a plan to spend $5 billion over the next three years to roll out new models and boost sales in the United States, where deliveries have started to slip after a two-year burst following the 2011 rollout of the Passat and Jetta sedans that were redesigned for American tastes....

    The company has been losing ground this year. VW's sales in the United States fell 0.9 percent to 206,792 in the first six months of 2013, while total light vehicle sales in the country rose 7.7 percent. The Jetta, Beetle and Passat models, which fueled VW's gains over the past two years, "reached maturity in terms of their sales cycles," said Tim Urquhart, a London-based analyst at IHS Automotive.

    Read more:
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  • ral2167ral2167 ohioPosts: 717
    Best looking non luxury sedans:
    1) Mazda 6 (not much of a contest)
    2-4) Tie depending on your biases: Malibu/Altima/Camry
    5) Sonata
    6) Accord
    No opinion: passat/optima/any thing else
    Comment: As stated, general consensus appears to be that the Mazda 6 is a really nice looking car. I kinda like the looks of the Malibu, even tho I hear it'll be moderately changed after just 1 year, but Altima and Camry also within the second tier. The Sonata is sharp, but now seems "dated"-- will be interesting to see the next generation. Accord appears very conservative to me-- somewhat like the previous generation camry was.
    None of this is a commentary on the interior/driving characteristics/etc. of the cars-- I'd rank those different. Just my opinion.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Since your Sonata has been so good to you why aren't you shopping that car? Ready for a change? I'm a big Honda fan, and think that the Accord is better than the Sonata in at least a few ways (visibility, handling, mpg, crash safety, etc.), but still I'm curious.

    It's been good, but I don't love the driving dynamics. I have a relative out of town for several weeks who has asked me to drive her car some - a 2002 Accord with 110k miles on it. At 11 years old, it drives much better than my Sonata. It rides harsher, but drives like a sports car in comparison. I had a 2006 and it was the same way. The Sonata rides soft and feels big; great for cruising but it produces zero driving fun (unless you mat the throttle; the 3.3L is plenty quick!). I bought the Sonata because of the value equation. I don't dislike it, but it doesn't make me want a new one either.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you need more than 198 hp to pass an LLC or a slow merger, you need remedial driving lessons.

    Having driven a 130hp Accord (1996) for 9 years, and now a 249hp Sonata V6 (2009), I'll say that you don't NEED the big power, but rather, it's a luxury worth paying for in some instances. I drive 100 miles a day. 84 of that is on 70mph-limited interstate. I'll pay the 3mpg penalty (19/29 vs 22/32 back in 2009) and have the reserve power when I want it. For what it's worth, I tend to stick around 70-72mph, and average 29mpg in daily commuting, 31mpg on trips.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,411
    Am I right in thinking that the 2013 Accord is on your shopping list now? If so, which model?

    You're right that the Accord is more agile in handling than most midsize sedans. The new model has electric steering, which apparently saves on gas, but doesn't give quite as much of a feel for the road at higher speeds imho. But everyone else these days has electric steering too. One of the biggest improvement in the new Accord is that for the first time it's a quiet car. You'll notice a big difference there.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 7,249
    I felt my '03 Accord Coupe LX V6 was very quiet, and very quick.

    No Moon-roof, no leather, just the good stuff. I did have them add real wheels instead of the ugly hubcaps though.

    I saved thousands over the EX and that's all I lost (moon roof and leather).

    The 4-cylinder Accords at the time didn't have nearly as many goodies as the V6's even in EX trim.
    2016 Audi TTS 2.0T quattro AWD. 2016 Kia Optima LX 1.6T FWD. Wife 2015 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI SE DSG FWD.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,992
    edited July 2013
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,411
    "....Camry sales fell 2 percent from January through June. Meanwhile its main rivals in the midsize car market — the Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion — posted big gains. The hot-selling Accord trailed Camry in sales by 21,000 at the end of June. Last year at this time the gap was 59,000.

    Toyota has raised discounts and cut the Camry's price in an effort to keep it on top. In early July, the Camry's average sales price was the lowest of the nine top-selling midsize cars, according to data from J.D. Power and Associates obtained by The Associated Press. Discounts on the Camry were among the highest in the segment, according to the data....

    Through June, Toyota sold 207,626 Camrys. But Accord sales rose 21 percent during the same period to 186,860. Altima sales gained nearly 8 percent to 167,787, while Fusion sales rose nearly 19 percent to 161,146. Since January, the Camry's share of the midsize car market has fallen by 1.6 percentage points to 12.6 percent, according to Ward's Automotive. During the same period, the Accord gained 0.5 points to 11.2 percent.

    To combat the falling sales and market share, Toyota has lowered the Camry's price. The Camry on average sold for just over $20,900 in early July, about $1,400 below the price from a year ago, according to the J.D. Power data. Discounts, such as low-interest loans and sweet lease deals, totaled nearly $3,100 per Camry, up almost $1,900 from July of last year and among the highest in the market, according to the data.

    The Accord is rolling off dealer lots even though it sells for roughly $2,600 more than the Camry for an average of $23,500. That includes discounts of only $1,300 per car, the lowest in the market....
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited July 2013
    looks an awful lot like an '06 Hyundai Sonata to most folks.

    BTW, the new Camry failed the offset crash test and Toyota is scurrying to re-design it (their new RAV4 also flunked that test).

    Hyundai quietly upgraded their hybrid Sonata and its 6 speed auto transmission delivers a much more satisfying driving experience than Toyota's fleet of hybrids and their droning CVTs.

    The Sonata passed the offset test.
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 536
    And Accord does it without any rental or taxi fleet sales.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 255
    edited July 2013
    BTW, the new Camry failed the offset crash test and Toyota is scurrying to re-design it (their new RAV4 also flunked that test).

    Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Toyota asked not to have the partial offset crash test performed on the RAV4 until AFTER they had a chance to redesign it. They redesigned it and then it failed. By publicly asking to wait until the redesign, then failing, they have given themselves a serious credibility issue. For Toyota's sake, I hope the 2014 camry passes that test or they may start to pay the price in terms of sales.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,411
    edited July 2013
    The 2006 Sonata was seen by many to be copying the styling of the Accord. Small point, maybe, but the Accord isn't copying the previous generation's Sonata's styling, but is an evolution of its own styling going back to 1986.

    Some of the razzmatazz styling of some midsize sedans can get to look dated pretty quickly. For instance, the current Sonata is already seeming a little dated to me and some others, while for many people even older Accords have a restrained and classic look that ages well. I think the same will be true of the current model.

    Also, the "coupe-like" styling of some midsize sedans comes with some trade-offs—like poor visibility, big blind spots, and reduced rear headroom. I'm a "form follows function" guy, and so for me the style of the Accord works.

    But some want more racy styling which for them stands out more, and that's fine too.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    Personally I think the back of the new Accord looks a lot like the Genesis sedan, not the last-gen Sonata. Not a bad thing IMO.

    As for the general resemblance of the new Accord to the last-gen Sonata... I don't see it. Maybe a bit in the front (it's a pretty generic front on both cars), but on the side the Accord has a much more pronounced Hofmeister kink than the Sonata.

    I didn't like the look of the 2011 Sonata when it first arrived, but it's grown on me. Maybe because I have one in the family fleet, a 2013 red GLS, mainly my wife's car. I do like it in red/tan. It's been perfect so far, and an enjoyable and comfortable car to drive around town or on the highway. And better-than-EPA FE too, when driven with a light foot.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Personally I think the back of the new Accord looks a lot like the Genesis sedan, not the last-gen Sonata. Not a bad thing IMO.

    Agreed. Both are inoffensive (read: generic), but nice looking. Style isn't a sales point for a midsize car to me.

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    edited July 2013
    One of the biggest improvement in the new Accord is that for the first time it's a quiet car. You'll notice a big difference there.

    My 2009 Sonata is still quieter than the 2013 Accord. Neither is objectionable to me though.

    You're right that the Accord is more agile in handling than most midsize sedans. The new model has electric steering, which apparently saves on gas, but doesn't give quite as much of a feel for the road at higher speeds imho.

    I'm more aware of the suspension tuning in the Accord vs. the Sonata; the Sonata feels a lot less disciplined than the Accord. Steering is quicker in the Honda, but both are relatively numb. It's the new standard these days.

    Am I right in thinking that the 2013 Accord is on your shopping list now? If so, which model?

    For what it's worth, I'm not a "first model-year buyer" simply because I'd rather have the better deal down the road. My vehicles have always been the first year of a mid-cycle refresh, not a full change (1996 Accord, 2006 Accord featuring a big exterior restyle, 2009 Sonata featuring a big interior restyle). The mechanicals have always been solid in these cars, and you have something that differentiates you from the prior years, but pricing isn't for an "all new car."

    When I do look, it will likely be at a Sport or an EX-L 4-cyl (the leather-wrapped wheel is a must-have for me; yes that's a random requirement :) ). I'm not convinced I'll end up in an Accord, but it's on the short list.

    I'll probably replace my Sonata in a year or so; I have 108k miles on it. With my entire immediate family living 300 miles away, I want to keep a car that is new enough I won't second guess my ability to leave town whenever I want.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 2,411
    edited July 2013
    Your thinking about when to buy a model makes some sense. I'm more random. My first Accord was an LX bought in the summer of 2002, which was the last few months of that design (got a great deal). My next Accord was the 2008, which we still have, which was the first year of the all-new design. But aside from some squeaky brake pads, which were replaced for free by Honda, I've not had any troubles with the car. Our 2013 is similarly the first year of the all-new design, and so far it's been almost perfect, with the exception of a small software glitch in switching between bluetooth and navi that sometimes shows up, and which I presume will have a fix soon.

    Since the late 1990s, as you probably know, the Accord has been on a 5-year design cycle. For instance, there was an all-new Accord in 2003, and then the third year of the model cycle was the great 2006 that you got with the standard led tail lights (that was the best mid-cycle restyle of any Accord generation imho).

    Anyway, by that counting the new Accord won't get a restyle and refresh until model year 2016, which will appear in the late summer of 2015. Can you wait that long? Maybe you can make your Sonata last, or maybe consider a 2014 Accord?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,435
    And this will push down the re-sale value of these Camrys. Not that it matters much in most cases. As I have said before, you either pays upfront (with a higher transaction price), or you pays at re-sale (with a lower return), but either way, no one really comes out ahead.
  • fury63fury63 Posts: 25
    I've found the only way to get good MPG out of my Fusion is through cruise control unless I'm really, really conscious of how I'm pressing the accelerator. I can get 30mpg going between 70-74 mph going through the northern plain states (mild hills). If I drop to 65mph I can easily get 33+. Combined is around 28mpg although I do much more highway than city driving. I likes my gas pedal too much in city driving lol.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,931
    Note that this won't change the EPA ratings but it will help drivers get better mileage in the real world.

    It sounds like they had more time to test the new system and decided that they could safely raise the parameters.

    Going to 85 mph on electric power is a shocker. I assumed they were maxed out at 62 mph due to technical limitations.

    The good news is it's available to 2013 owners too.
  • lucien4lucien4 Posts: 68
    85 mpg in EV mode won't help really since it just will drain battery completely quickly. The other improvements though should make some difference.

    To me real world mpg is fine of Fusion hybrid but the 13 gallon tank is very small to get decent range especially since no one really gets 47 mpg combined under normal driving conditions.

    The upcoming Honda Accord hybrid has about 15.9 gallon tank and I'm guessing real world mpg will be higher. Although seats don't fold so each have pro/cons.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,992
    It almost seems like the car could have been tested in the 'new' configuration. Then it was changed to be more conservative, but never retested, just because the change is done as a software reconfiguration.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,931
    That would be illegal. Ford knows better.

    85 mph will help those who do shorter high speed runs with braking in between.
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