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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,931
    It doesn't measure a 25% change. It only reports if it's 25% too low. Did you read the link I provided from Hyundai? It spells it out very clearly. It also explains that the display for a low tire and the display for a sensor problem are the same except the sensor problem flashes for the first 60 seconds. If your tires were not 25% too low then it was a temporary sensor fault. There is no other logical explanation.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    "No, it's no big deal to me"

    Sure seems to be. My comment was directed at benjaminh, not you. I think it was pretty obvious in my post that I mistakenly replied to your post. Didn't realize that posts were exclusively between two people and not for others to comment on. I'll have to remember that.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,025
    Race cars and airplanes use pure nitro in their tires so it's not just recapped trucks and I'm not even sure that is true on the recaps. Nitrogen has larger molecules which don't seep out as easily as oxygen and it also less affected by heat.

    Of course you do know that the air is 80% nitrogen? So the "pure nitrogen" filled tires are only different by that other 20%.

    Aircraft use nitrogen because their braking generates high heat, and oxygen from air supports flame in the presence of petrochemicals, which are right nearby on aircraft. If/when aircraft tires blow out, you don't want flame-supporting gasses expelled.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    I meant no insult and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I based my comment on two things.
    1. Your comment that the attributes of nitrogen filled tires is nothing but "hot air".
    2. Your comment about the retread tires being the only use for it.

    The hot air term insinuates to me that anyone making a positive comment about nitrogen filled tires is full of hot air. The retread tires being the only use for nitrogen comment and the non-mention of nitrogen being used in race car tires and airplanes indicated a less than full grasp of the application of nitrogen in tires in general. Those two applications where it is crucial that air pressure be maintained or disaster can result. I guess I shouldn't have used the term "make fun of" but that is what it appeared to me. Just like what I wrote appeared to be an insult which was meant more as sarcasm in general versus a direct insult.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    Yes, that is pretty basic. It's the other 20% I was referring to. There is a difference to how the two mixtures, air vs. pure nitrogen, react to heat, cold, moisture and the molecule size providing a small difference in leakage both at the rim and through the actual sidewalls.

    I'm just relating what my experience has been with 4 different vehicles and three different brands of tires versus the experience I've had over 40 years of driving and probably over 100 sets of tires purchased and maintained. I have no vested interest in the "nitrogen industry" and as I said earlier, was pretty ambivalent towards it until I got it for free from Costco about 6 years ago. I'm sold on it now because I just don't have to add air to my vehicles anywhere close to what I ALWAYS had to before.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    Just noticed this and thought I would throw it out for discussion.

    The new Corolla has increased interior space from 91 ft3 to 98 ft3 and rear legroom has increased by 5 (yes five) inches. This is something that I have always wanted car makers to do - just increase the rear legroom by stretching that area. It seems they always manage to make the car 6 inches longer and add .8 inches or rear legroom (or whatever the numbers are). Vw kind of started this trend with the Jetta (and to some degree the Passat), however Toyota has taken it to a new level with even more interior ft3 and legroom.

    So the question is - where would a car like this sit size wise. If a compact has more space for passengers than a mid size is it still a compact? The Corolla is now officially a midsized car according to the EPA. Will it really be considered one by consumers as it has the same space as a 2013 Mazda 6. Will people be criticized for bringing it up here?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    Hypothetical on the Nitrogen.

    Nitrogen molecules are larger, so if air leaks out of your tires it is the oxygen leaking out as it fits through smaller holes.

    Eventually you only have nitrogen in your tires. :D
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    edited October 2013
    Vw kind of started this trend with the Jetta...

    Yes, "kind of" is right. Actually, in the compact class Hyundai started this trend with the 2001 Elantra, introduced here in the fall of 2000. I believe it was the first compact car to offer mid-sized interior room, including a very roomy back seat. That was one of the main reasons I bought the car 13 years ago. The Jetta of that time had a pretty cramped rear seat.

    Now, only 13 years later :) Toyota has finally built a Corolla with a rear seat suitable for most adults. Nice to see, but a little late in the game compared to Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, VW and maybe others that offered compact cars with mid-sized interiors well before Toyota did it with the 2014 Corolla.

    And, btw... we've had this discussion here before, i.e. compact cars with mid-sized interiors and where do they fit. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    You know, I'm not a mind reader and didn't know you really meant your post to be directed at benjaminh instead of me until you told me. Thanks for the clarification.

    And of course I don't think posts are exclusively for two people. But it helps avoid misunderstandings when you reply to the message you intended to reply to. ;)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    This is now the third time I said I made a mistake. Of course it would be clearer if I hadn't made that mistake. Now, shall we drive it into the ground or what? I'm sorry I replied to your post and upset you. Move on.l
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    Elantra achieves midsize status with a larger trunk since the EPA adds trunk space to interior space for classification. The Corolla has the most interior room beating the Elantra by 2 ft3.

    I was aware of the Elantra, but sitting in one did not seem that large. Kind of like the Chevy Cruze - larger than than many compacts in ft3, but still a very crowded rear seat.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    The US corolla gets a solid rear axle and the euro version gets an independent rear suspension. Seems the US buyers could care less about handling. They want the cheapest Corolla possible and would never notice the difference anyway. That's according to Toyota. I guess very few buy a Corolla here expecting any "ultimate driving experience." If you know your market, you know your market.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    That really wasn't the point, but... whatever.

    If you think the Cruze and Elantra have comparable rear seat room, I don't think you've spent much time back there in those cars.

    But back to the original topic... with as much interior room as compacts like the Corolla, Sentra, and Jetta (and I'd say also the Elantra and Forte but you might disagree so forget I mentioned it) have, it's less likely someone would need to buy a mid-sized car for interior room. More likely they want the added power and (in some cases) features a mid-sizer offers.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    Don't forget overall ride quality. Heft and wheelbase add a lot to the overall ride that many people look for in a midsize car. I like the new Mazda3 as it has almost the same amount of interior space as our 2007 Mazda6. But, due to it's weight and wheelbase and sport tuned suspension it is too jittery for me. I'm really looking forward to the 2015 Mazda6 for three reasons. 1) Some bugs of the new model should be worked out. 2) The diesel should be intergrated but I'm not sure if that would be the one I want though. 3) I'm hoping they drastically improve the infotainment center with a larger screen and better NAV.

    However, recently my wife has been saying that her next car needs to be a lot quieter than the Mazda6 she's driving. That may lead us into another direction altogether. That would be too bad as I really love the new Mazda6. Another possibility is that a lot of reviewers rave about the Mazda6 in just about every area except the infotainment and the road noise. If Mazda improves on both of those areas a little the 6 could be still be a player.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,998
    Heading out to Indiana tomorrow from CT.
    Filled up the Fusion with premium gas, although it wasn't quite empty.
    The first outbound leg of the trip, taken a couple times already, always returns the worst fuel mileage, as it is mostly climbing.
    Hoping to make it to Ohio on one tank.
    Reactivated my Sat radio, so we can listen to some sports on the way home.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,995
    Reactivated my Sat radio, so we can listen to some sports on the way home.

    Sounded like a fun trip until you said THAT. :p


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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 10,998
    You haven't lived until you've listened to golf for 6 hours. ;)
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 4,424
    Frankly, your posts are like a broken record and they are just another copy from some auto review where they said something nice about the Sonata or some of it actually looks like it's copied right out of a Hyundai brochure.

    No review would be written like that.

    It reads less like brochure copy and more like a press release. The old "features and benefits" section. All fluff.

    Frankly, if he isn't on Hyundai's payroll, he ought to be.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • vservser Posts: 48
    I'll be test driving an Optima 2014 SX Turbo w tech and leather this weekend. Anyone have any advice or things to look for? On the surface, I'm expecting it to drive like a Hyundai with a nicer looking interior.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    Only advice is get pre approved for financing just in case.
  • vservser Posts: 48
    Is it a worthy car? Seems too nice to be reliable. Hyundai drove great but wasnt attractive on the inside.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    Probably. I'm kinda weird in that I prefer the ride quality of a compact car--more nimble than a typical mid-sized car. I just like the interior room of a mid-sized car. My Mazda6i hatch is nearly ideal in that area--plenty of interior and cargo room, and nimble handling. I wish Mazda still made that car.

    As for wheelbase, the wheelbase, and length, of some compact cars is pretty close to that of mid-sized cars of a few years ago. I'm not a fan of the ever-increasing size of mid-sized cars. I'm glad to see that trend reversing a bit, e.g. the new Accord is a little shorter than the old one.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    The Corolla is still a step down. It is priced to compete with the Civic, Jetta, Cruse, Focus, etc. The Corolla has been losing car comparos for literally years due to it's lack of rear leg room, and it's dated powertrain technology. It has finally been addressed. It is still priced as a compact.

    However, you are bringing up a valid point. It is sized as a step up...but will never be accepted as a competitor for an Accord, or even it's cousin the Camry.

    It is designed to garner more sales. Every time a new version comes out the manufacturer tries to make it better. Usually bigger, faster, safer, more luxurious, etc, etc, but still performing the original role of the car. Toyota sold boatloads of Corollas around the world, even though it was a step behind the competition. They cannot afford to make mistakes on this cash cow so it was given some mid-size features, but kept it within a compact car price range as to not alienate millions of potential customers.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    No, you are not weird. I like the connected feel of a compact car too. I can feel every bump and ripple of the pavement in my mom's 2010 Forte'. It feels like a sporty car. More tossable and direct.

    My mom prefers the ride in my car, which does have rubbery steering IMO but the new tires really helped ...also IMO.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    edited October 2013
    If that is what happened, then I stand corrected. I do remember the icon flashed before it lit solid. It really isn't a big deal though. You have been fighting to the death over it. By the way...I don't own a Sonata. I have an Optima, (not that it makes any difference here). Backy has the Sonata. Anyway, I learned from your link something I did not know, so thanks.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    It not only has a solid torsion beam rear axle, it has drum brakes* attached to it. Where did they get the parts? 1989?

    *The "S" Premium model does get solid rear disk brakes

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    edited October 2013
    The Elantra was the first compact car to take the plunge and show off some style. People bought them in droves. It had an "Atomic Guppy" look to it that I found very attractive. The senior pastor bought the 2011 Limited model in Spicy Red with heated seats front and rear. It was the car that prompted me to choose that color on my Optima. He then traded his Elantra for an Optima of his own after driving mine several times! True story! (I volunteer for a feed the needy program in the church office so he and I have become friends).

    If I was in the compact car market right now, I would look at Mazda 3 first, Elantra second, and Forte' third. I might also consider a Golf, but it would be a sin to not get the GTI model, and it would be over budget of $20,000 at the highest.

    Here is Mazda 3 info. It is a great looking, high tech, and has been reviewed very favorably.

    The new Corolla looks nice, but breaks no new ground in styling by blacking our the front bumper to evoke the big grill look.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 areaPosts: 20,312
    edited October 2013
    I'm sorry the term "hot air" caused offense. It was meant as a pun about the one feature of nitrogen advertising was that it didn't expand to change the pressure at higher temperatures as much as 80% N2 normal air expands.

    I studied this advertising after it became a constant advertising tool here in the Midwest years back. I searched for N2 isolators, termed generators, and found large numbers of companies advertising how much money tire stores could make selling enriched N2 to the customer. The advertising became almost political in nature. Now there seem to be fewer manufacturers advertising.

    But I found (and haven't come up with link) that the N2 use started with truck tires where it helps with truck tires where the casings are retreaded. The liner of the tires allow some O2 to permeate from the inside; using N2 enrichment helped slow that deterioration over 100,000s of miles and years of life on the carcass that is retreaded. Of course there is O2 and O3 attacking from the outside of the casing.

    However, most auto tires are not retreaded and many do not stay on a car for lots of years. Also the quality of the inner liner of tires can slow the permeation of both molecules. More a problem is the outside attack from O2 and O3 and the sun. CR did a study years back where they put tires on rims and stored them, checking for leakage loss. The Michelin X-One was the lowest. I had X-Ones at the time. I suspect the quality of the inner tire lining and the quality preparation of the rim seal area on your tires, and on the Michelins I always buy, has more to do with less replacement air adjustment needed at steady ambient temperatures than with the N2 vs O2 presence.

    One source currently suggests and any real difference in permeability loss with normal air is far within the regular tire pressure checks and touch ups people should make. My opinion is that when N2 is used to reinflate the tires at a tire store, they aren't getting the 95% maximum purity of N2 from the generator into their tire. There is air inside the tire on the rim at initial installation that lowers the end percentage. Also refills at home or other locations usually find regular air sources without N2 being enriched up to perhaps 95%. One reading source
    Another source for reading

    The real interesting value I see from this is water vapor. It has a higher coefficient of thermal expansion than N2 or O2 but quite a bit. Small home/handheld compressors don't have driers on them to reduce the moisture in the air. I do not know if quick market/gas station pay machines have that or not. The water vapor is credited with causing some corrosion like roughening on the bead seats that can cause leakage as the tire squirms. I have a tire that seems to have that problem.

    And I have had N2 put into my tires. The particular store I visit uses it but doesn't make an advertising deal of it. The manager asked if I wanted it done when in for a regular rebalance and rotate .

    I believe one of my links addresses the uses of N2 in airplane tires and racing, e.g., where the likelihood of a burning tire's gases being explosively released to add O2 to an existing fire for a short time is a safety factor.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,931
    I just wanted you to know what actually happened so you can take proper action next time. Plus I'm just a stickler for details.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    edited October 2013
    Very thorough. I admit that three out of the four sets of tires I have had experience with are Michelin. Two mounted by Costco and the other Acura. The other brand is BF Goodrich mounted by Costco. So it may be a huge coincidence of proper mounting and good tires. All I can relate in this forum is my personal experience. After having such good experience with four sets of tires filled with N2 and not appreciating having to top off with air all the time in Chicago winters, I'll stick with the N2 until such time as I have an adverse experience with it. It hasn't cost me a dime. I told my 89 year old father about it and he had it put in his tires down in Texas about a year ago as his next door neighbor works for a dealership and put it in for free for him. He doesn't check religiously(he's 89!) but says he hasn't had to add any air since putting in the N2 and he usually needed air a couple of time a year before this. Could still be coincidence but I'll stick with what is working for me.

    I realize that some of the claims out there are just plain stupid when it comes to filling your tires with N2 and I never thought it would change the ride or give be better gas mileage. I simply appreciate the fact that I don't have to add air to my tires anywhere near as often as I used to. Here's a down to earth article from a source that has no vested interest in the "air" industry.

    Here's an excerpt from an article published by Mobil Oil Co.

    "Nitrogen Benefits
    What’s the big benefit? [omitted; see footnote Page 2*] Michelin Tire Manual points out that a tire inflated with Nitrogen loses its pressure three times slower compared to one inflated with compressed air. Ingersoll Rand goes further: “diffusion out of the tire sidewall is 30 to 40 percent slower than Oxygen. That’s why a Nitrogen-filled tire maintains pressure longer.” For cars with (expensive) custom wheels, an even bigger benefit could be the fact Nitrogen prevents oxidation (due to the lack of water). Oxidation leads to tread separation, but it also leads to corrosion of the rim. Don’t believe it? Forget to drain an air compressor after a few days of use and you’ll see just how much water is found in good fashioned compressed air."

    I guess we've hijacked this thread more than we should so we can agree to disagree with the knowledge that there are pros and cons on both sides. But I will stick with my personal experience and leave the scholarly research to others.
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