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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    OMG I read that backy. I'm just glad someone else posted it. Really though, back in the day C/D was the very best car mag. It is a shame that it seems to keep getting thinner and thinner. I mean, what else is a man to read on the throne?

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    Philosophically, the Avalon and the Fusion are different, and both are new designs.
    Avalon is smoother, although from what reviews I have read, it has stiffened the ride a bit. Now it shares chassis with Lexus ES which is no longer based on the Camry. V6 is the non hybrid engine choice.
    Fusion is sportier, and only comes with a 4 cyl, not as smooth as a V6, but will most likely return better mileage.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161

    ????. I guess you mean that the Avalon is a full size car and the Fusion is a midsize car. Most full size cars drive somewhat different....because they are a different class of car. Toyota's Fusion competition in the midsize field is the Camry. Avalon is comparable to other full sizers like the Taurus, Impala, Alzera, LaCrosse and 300. All a class up from the cars that are discussed here. Equipped with similar equipment these cars usually run about $6-9k more than the midsizers.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    vser is comparing these 2 cars. They might be considered different classes by the EPA, but the interior space is less than 1 cubic/ft difference.
    I guess there was a point to be made and I don't know what it was, but I'm listening.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    I think down the road you would be glad you bought the Avalon. If you can swing the extra cash...then go for it.

    I know you have been trying to decide between three cars, two of which are mid size. So, I think it is fine you are posting about it here. If you choose Fusion 2.0 E/B Titanium or Optima SX you will save some money and have a great car

    In response to m6user:
    If you buy the Avalon you have to talk about it on the large car board after all is said and done, but I still want to know if you did choose it, and how you like it every now and then.

    I feel there should be a board called "Modern Mainstream Sedans", and have it done by price range. Until then though, mid size is the focus here,

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • rysterryster Posts: 563
    Personally, I would avoid the Fusion. My friend bought a 2013 Fusion Titanium. It has been back to the dealer at least three times for different issues. The "FUSION" badge on the trunk totally fell off. The front passenger seat stopped working (it stopped sliding.) The power steering failed and needed to be replaced (requiring a tow to the dealer, and then $2,000 in warranty work.) They are not pleased at all and quite frankly wish they could lemon it.

    I have a 2011 Hyundai Sonata. I purchased it new, and now have 47,000 miles on it. Aside from several interior squeaks and rattles it has been reliable. Dealer service has been exceptional. It is my first Hyundai, and I would not hesitate to buy another Hyundai product.

    Based on ALG residual value figures, the Avalon will probably be worth $10,000 after 7 years. The Fusion Titanium would be about $7,000 after 7 years. As others have pointed out, you will have spent $29,000 on the Avalon, and $26,600 on the Fusion. The KIA Optima Turbo will have a value of $6-7,000 after 7 years as well, so you will have spent only $23-24,000 on the KIA.

    It all comes down to which one makes you happiest and where you feel your money is best spent. I would probably trust a 7 year old Toyota or KIA/Hyundai product more than I would a 7 year old Ford product. I have owned 2 Fords and had no luck with them. I was no stranger to the Ford service department for unscheduled work.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    My Fusion was keypad entry, so you don't need the keys to get in the car.
    Capless fuel fuel filler is convenient, although minor.
    My Fusion also has remote start. I rarely use it and when I do, it's to find the car in the dark.
    It's less obnoxious that using the panic feature.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    edited October 2013
    I don't think I would want the keypad because it takes longer. The Optima just lights up when I am about 2 ft from the car, and I just push a tiny recessed button on the door handle and it opens. No fuss and no code to remember.

    I don't have the remote start, but I very much wish I did!

    The car does not like to be left running without the me in the car. It "screams" at me with an irritating, ear-piercing warning chime. ( but I understand why). It only last about 10 seconds and is helpful if you really did accidentally leave the car running with the key-fob in or even forgot to turn the car off even if you didn't leave the fob.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • suydamsuydam Posts: 2,043
    Accord also has recessed button to lock and unlock. No fiddling with anything. I like that. And it also beeps loudly if you leave the engine running. I like that too because the engine is quiet and I have forgotten a couple of times. Probably because of being new to push button on and off.

    I'd be very surprised if the Avalon was worth only 10k after 7 years.
    '14 Buick Encore
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    With the keypad you don't need the keys at all.
    My Fusion does have keyless entry, which is what you are referring to.
    When my car is running or active and I exit it with the key in my pocket, I get scolded too.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,445
    Wait...can you start the car w/o a key at all, or only go grab your celly and whatever?

    I had a 94 SHO (a real SHO with the Yamaha 6) and it had a keypad. I totally forgot the password. I loved it. Until the engine seized. :(

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    I was just trying to explain that of course a full size car is going to ride and handle a little different than a midsize car and that is hard to compare apples to pears so to speak even though the price somewhat similar.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    edited October 2013
    Not start the car, I can get into it without the keys. It's great when your kids need something out of the car, but you don't want to give them the keys.
    You should have gotten the valves adjusted on your SHO.
    I had an 89 and a 92. My wife also had a 96.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    Do some homework and you will see that the size of these cars are almost identical.
    The difference is the EPA definition of the interior space. It just crosses the artificial definition of mid size and large.
    The prices are not close to each other.
    Go back, take your time, and read what 'vser' wrote about the them.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    I realize they are close in size and I don't understand why you keep bringing up the EPA. They don't decide which cars are marketed as fullsize sedans or midsize sedans....the auto manufacturers do. I agree the prices are not close which makes sense as they are different classes of cars....exactly what I was saying. I think it's fine that somebody is cross shopping two different classes of car and they can be discussed here. I'm just pointing out that just because the Avalon is similar in size to the Fusion, it is not marketed by Toyota as midsize sedan but as a full size sedan like the Taurus, etc. It just happens to be one of the smaller fullsize sedans.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    I'd like to see where the Avalon is marketed a as larger than mid size by Toyota.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    That's pretty easy... for example, click the link below then look at what the title of the tab in your browser window is: "Toyota Avalon 2013 | Full-size Cars".

    It's clear that Toyota at least considers their Avalon to be a "full-sized" car... not a mid-sized car.!/Welcome
  • vservser Posts: 48
    I took the Avalon out for a few hours. The ride was nice. Just felt good. Stereo was great. Nav an infotainment was confusing, and I'm technical. Fwiw the seats were ok, but after reading abt complaints, I might be inclined to understand why ppl might have complained. Also there is some chrome that caused glare. Other than that, I felt good driving it. Now I'm going to try to eliminate the fusion or optima. Price for a 2013 Limited Av is abt 35500 plus tax and dest. Fusion out the door at 33500. Optima sx turbo 30000 before any negotiating. I'm going to try to get the optima on an overnight. In the Av I payed close attention to the bumpier roads and steering. The optima is firm almost to a fault. I'm going to try to pay closer attn during my next ride. Also fwiw the Av is 195 inches. Only a few longer than the midsizers.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 2,043
    I'm surprised the Fusion is so much more expensive than the Honda Accord. I thought they were similar.
    '14 Buick Encore
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    The EPA classifies the Avalon as a large car, although it is not really a large car.
    It happens to exceed the 119 cu/ft threshold.
    If the Avalon has to be excluded from this discussion, so do the Honda Accord LX and Sport. At 119 cu/ft combined interior/trunk space, the are classified as large cars.
    Other models of the Accord, due to the sunroof, are still considered mid size.
    It makes no sense to me, to split hairs like this, but that's what some are pushing for.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,879
    edited October 2013
    Why complain to me? You said you'd like to see some evidence of the Avalon being marketed as something other than a mid-sized car. Clearly, it is marketed as something other than a mid-sized car.

    EPA interior numbers don't tell the full story. A lot of why a car is classified as it is is based on how the carmakers position their cars vs. others, and history. The Accord has for many years been considered a mid-sized car, that's how Honda markets it (vs. the likes of the Camry, Altima etc.) so that's where it falls. The Sonata has had full-sized interior volume for years, but Hyundai markets it as a mid-sized car and its Azera as a step above, i.e. full-sized. The Avalon has always been marketed by Toyota as a step above its Camry in size, hence its classification as a "full-sized" car even though these days it's marginally bigger than some mid-sized cars.

    If we went by only EPA interior volume in classifying cars, things would get ridiculous. For example, the Versa (at least the original one) had mid-sized interior volume per the EPA. But I think most people including Nissan would consider it a subcompact, slotted under the Sentra (which also has mid-sized interior volume).
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    I think it is more what the manufacturer markets and sells the car as than the EPA size classifications that determine if it is supposed to be discussed regularly in this forum, that doesn't mean it can't be cross shopped by someone and mentioned as such, but for example the Avalon is marketed as a full sized car ( even though as you mentioned the interior room is the same as the Accord ( or was that the last gen accord, isn't the newest one slightly smaller inside, no big deal though) which is marketed as a midsized car, This doesn't mean someone can't cross shop them, it just means that for the purpose of the forums to keep things completely on topic that the Avalon is discussed in the full sized sedans topic since it is marketed as such and the Accord is discussed in the mid sized sedans as it is marketed as such. Toyota markets the Camry as their midsized entry. Personally I don't care one way or the other, but if you start bringing in the full sized cars into the discussion on the large end and the compact sized cars on the smaller end ( as some of them fit into the midsized EPA classifcation) before you know it you are talking about all sedans and the focus of the topic us lost. The forum does tend to drift from time to time to either end, but in general focuses on the cars marketed as mainstream midsized sedans.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 4,425
    I am also surprised at that Fusion price. If that is sticker, I think there must be some significant incentives available.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • vservser Posts: 48
    The Fusion I'd want is the Titanium w driver assist, Nav, and sunroof w H spoke wheels.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    If it matters to anybody the IIHS rates the Avalon as "Large family car" and the Fusion/Accord/Altima/Sonata, etc. as "Midsize moderately priced car".
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    As long as you are shopping Ford -- check out the Taurus -- huge discounts on nicely equipped cars.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    Still don't know why you're so hung up on the EPA. Nobody here is saying they are basing anything on what the EPA says. The AV is a positioned as a large car. Maybe you should stop telling others in a sarcastic manner to do their research and do some of your own.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    The only way the Avalon is large is by EPA definition, and that differs by about the size of a large loaf of wonder bread.
    It's 4 inches longer than a Fusion, but the Fusion is wider, taller, heavier and has a longer wheelbase.
    Yes I looked up the facts.
    You are the one who said the Avalon should be excluded from this discussion, because it's large.
    I am saying it belongs here.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,161
    edited October 2013
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Avalon should be completely excluded from this discussion. In fact, I said it would be fine to include it on a basis of comparing it to a midsize car. However, it is a full size car no matter how close it may come to some large midsize car.

    Many cars, including some compacts, are very close in size to some midsize cars.....but they are still compacts. Just like the Avalon is a fullsize car. Toyota markets it as a full size car and compares it to other full size cars, not other midsize cars. Cost does play a role in these descriptions as well and, as YOU said, the Avalon is substantially more expensive than the midsize cars discussed here routinely.

    There you go with the EPA again and it certainly is NOT the only one referring to the Avalon as a full size car. Backy gave you the link to Toyota where they say it's a full sized car after you asked for just ONE example where it is referred to as a full size car. Well, you got it. And I would guess that most car people would say that the Toyota equivalent to the Fusion is the Camry. And the Avalon would compete more with the Taurus and Impala. I know it's hard to accept a Fusion being compared with a Camry for some people but that's the way it is.

    The Focus can be priced well into Fusion territory and they are only a few inches apart here and there so I guess we can call the Focus a midsized car using your logic. I know it's silly but this whole conversation with you is getting like that.....silly. So let's agree to end it as there really is no absolute authority on this unless Edmunds wants to make a definitive decision on where the Avalon should be placed per these discussions.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,000
    vser is cross shopping an Avalon and a Titanium Fusion.
    Physical comparison of their dimensions/capacities show the are extremely close.
    Is the Fusion crossed shopped with a Camry? Yes, but an Avalon is also appropriate competitor to a high end Fusion.
    The biggest difference is a philosophical difference, Fusion leaning toward sporty and the Avalon toward comfort.
    The EPA determines what size vehicles are, regardless of what we think.
    The Camry is measured at 118 cu/ft, so it's also just under the full size classification.
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