Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott

'93 LeSabre weighed maybe 250 pounds more than a 4 cyl Mazda6. So there is not all that much of a difference in weight. Based on fueleconomy.gov, you should expect 2-4 mpg better from the 6.

If you had a V6 in the Mazda6 that'd probably get about the same mpg as the old Buick.

Note that the 3.8L Buick engine was only 170 HP, high torque though. The 4 cyl mazda engine is rated at 156 HP.

andres3

As long as you realize that a lot of what you are paying extra for on an Accord or Camry is brand image--which doesn't really help you unless you care about having other people see you driving a Honda or Toyota vs. something else.

People don't buy Honda's or Toyota's for brand image, that is what Acura and Lexus are for!!!

People buy Honda's and Toyota's because they cost more to build and produce, but they also deliver superior longevity, performance, economy, durability, reliability, and dependability. Those more expensive parts also provide great interior feel, fit, finish, luxury, and quality. You really do get what you pay for.... if it is from a REPUTable company.

colloquor

Andres3 - evidently you've never worked in management for a manufacturing company, and helped determine the warranty period issued on a product - I have. And quality, build quality, whatever you wish to call it, has a lot to do with the offered full or limited warranty period.

As an example, do you think Hyundai could continue to offer a 10 year/100K warranty if its warranty repair costs were high at the dealer level - of course not. Nor can any company regardless of product. Manufacturers who offer long limited warranty periods do so because they believe in their product, quality and otherwise. Long warranties are not just a marketing ploy, contrary to your belief. A company has to believe in the quality of its product offered with a long-term warranty, otherwise in short order the warranty expenses will literally kill the company.

andres3

I am not talking about the old model which had a terrible interior.

Don't forget that the Old Sebring also had nothing but fully black dots and terrible rankings for reliability from both CR and JD.

andres3

Then do please explain to me why Hyundai doesn't offer the same warranty to 2nd owners as it does to 1st owners?

Then do please explain to me why GM's warranty only goes for a measly 5 years, but it also goes for 100K miles.

Then do please explain to me why Chrysler upped their warranties to lifetime MID YEAR through the same production cycle?

Did GM really double their quality (and warranty length) because their quality doubled from 2006 to 2007 (from 50K to 100K miles)?

Did Mazda's quality drop by 25% because their warranties fell from 4 years and 50K to 3 years and 36K from 2006 to 2007?

Did Toyota and Honda's powertrains improve by 66% since their warranties went from 3 years to 5 years recently?

andres3

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118972842681227168.html?mod=hps_us_at_glance_mm

I particularly liked this part:

"GM, for its part, has been trying to use the well-received Aura to steal customers from its main foreign rivals. This summer, in a bid to shake up the market, GM put a Camry and an Accord in each of its Saturn dealerships around the country and encouraged car buyers to test-drive the vehicles side-by-side.

The move had little impact on Aura sales, and GM has now ended the effort. It has also scrapped a plan to have Chevy dealers keep Camrys and Accords on hand to compare against the new Malibu sedan that arrives later this year.

At the Frankfurt auto show, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said his company's own focus groups also find consumers instinctively rate GM vehicles below Toyota's or Honda's. But he said GM's scores are getting closer.

Chrysler is also looking for a little more consideration. A few weeks ago, the company began offering a lifetime warranty on its vehicles' engines and transmissions, an industry first. So far it's unclear if it is helping sales, but it may be another tactic that import buyers just ignore."

Looks like I'm not the only one who finds Chrysler "objectionable," when people find it easy to ignore their fine print riddled lifetime warranty.

Also, looks like too many people preferred the Accord and Camry to the Aura and Malibu, so you won't be seeing Honda's and Toyota's at Saturn or Chevy dealers anytime soon, or in the near and distant future. I KNEW that idea of direct comparison would backfire. I'd of bet 100 to 1 odds on it.

louiswei

So the Saturn Aura back-to-back-to-back is over?

Did the Aura do better because of it?

m1miata

Oh dear! At least they bought a Honda and a Camry, so the resale value was high when they had to sell the two If the comparison did not bump sales using the i4 engine cars, what on earth would have happened should they have tried to compare one on one, as in V6.
Now I did do just that. Honestly, the XR compares well to the Japan cars, as in this car is a much improved effort compared to those of yesteryear.
The XE Aura is OK if you need to save a few thousand, are buying it as a family car, or like that old four speed tranny and OHV engine combo, which a few people prefer, then it too is not a bad deal. That said, with a wider Camry and Accord on the deck there to show customers, they may sit inside and think, wow, this is more room for the family. Oh well, another mistep by management. L

m1miata

Yeap, and the in town mileage is poor. Overall, the old 3.8 V6 did OK with the too tall gear. I recall back in the later 80's going up to Tahoe from Carson City, it is steep and the poor thing tried to get up to speed, then fell back to third, but that was over revving, so it would go back to fourth and do the cycle again, each time losing ground for speed. No way to drop it down, as who knows the RPM's and it sounded like it was gonna blow-up when pushed to high on revs, so I let cycle between the too taller gears, which made more noise than power. I had the 150HP and later cars did get the 200HP, which is of course better.

Overall, the gas mileage is going to be better with a i4 engine, though it differs by make. - L

robertsmx

Chrysler has a better powertrain warranty than Camry or Ccord so I'm not sure how you figure that you sacrifice quality by getting one of their products.

One way would be, driving them. Another way would be looking at the quality they speak of...




I don't care if they provide lifetime warranty multiplied by two on that thing, and it actually lasts, I just choose to not having to live with it. And you guessed it right, those pictures are from a 2007 Dodge.

andres3

The guy was trying to say that Crystal is as good as Diamond, or Cubic Zirconia or any equivalent of that.

What he is saying is the equivalent of that for sure when comparing Chrysler quality to Honda or Toyota.

andres3

According to GM in the article, yes, the Aura back to back to back comparison is OVER, done with, and terminated. The Aura sales did not increase one iota because of the comparisons at dealer lots.

urnews

I don't see anything wrong in those photos of the Dodge interior. Am I missing something?

louiswei

I don't see anything wrong in those photos of the Dodge interior. Am I missing something?

A Chrysler product is perfect for you.

You are the perfect case that paying the premium of an Accord or Camry is like wasting money...

Nothing wrong with that, it's just some people have higher standard about interior quality and fit-n-finish than others. To each of his own.

urnews

it's just some people have higher standard about interior quality and fit-n-finish than others.

And I suppose all of the people you describe own/drive Accords and Camrys? Gimme a break. Next you'll tell me the Hondas and Toyotas don't use plastic in their interiors.

thegraduate

Please don't take it to heart - all Honda owners aren't so snappy...

That being said, I can see this forum getting shut down. I can hear the forum itself talking now...

"Where am I going and what am I doing in this handbasket?

That's all I've got to say about tha-at. - Forrest Gump

louiswei

And I suppose all of the people you describe own/drive Accords and Camrys?

Did I say that? Please don't finish my sentence if you can't read my mind.

Granted that there are people who buy Accord and Camry based on brand image. But there are also people who buy it based on objective reasons like me and many others here.

Of course Honda and Toyota use plastic in their interiors, even MB, BMW and Lexus do. However, there are different quality of plastic. If you can't tell the difference then like I said, go for the less expensive one.

pat

Nobody said anything of the sort.

To all: Knock off the personal comments. Some posts have been removed and I'm sorry if I missed any that should have been.

Somehow I think I've said this a couple or twenty times before, but if there is something going on here that you think needs my attention please EMAIL ME instead of posting. That will get me here as soon as I'm online. Otherwise I won't see it until I just run into it on my usual rounds like I did here.

Posting to me to take care of something is a waste of your time and mine. By the time I see that post I've also already found the problem.

pat

Okay - let's move on.

urnews

If you can't tell the difference then like I said, go for the less expensive one.

I still say I see nothing wrong with the photo of the 2007 Dodge. If that means I'm not a good judge of plastic, then so be it.

elroy5

If you sat in an Accord every day you would see the difference easily. That is some very cheap/hard plastic. If you never see high quality plastics you have nothing to compare it to. To some people the quality of the plastic doesn't mean much, as long as it holds together. Depends on what you're used to I guess.

jeffyscott

Back in post #5340, in response to comments about the Fusion's trans, I had posted:

I switched from manual to automatic when I got my mazda6 and have been pretty happy with the functioning of the auto. Mine is a 5 speed, because I have the 4 cyl...but it drops down 2 gears really quickly when you step on it, too.

The other thing I like is it will go to redline before upshifting when you are flooring it. Does the 6 speed in the fusion do that, also?

In the past I had read about automatics that limit the revs to around 5000...that was for the Contour. I assume that was a common practice. I am curious to know if it still is?

I had hoped I might get some comments about other transmissions in response...

louiswei

I guess I was being spoiled by the cars I drive and used to drive:

1990 Acura Legend
1992 Honda Accord
1997 Honda Accord
2006 Lexus IS350

No wonder I can't stand crappy interiors...

The 1994-1997 Honda Accord has better interior quality wise than the 1998-2002 version IMO. Honda did improved the 2003- version by quiet a lot though.

andres3

I suppose we need similar pictures of other vehicles from close-up just like the one's of the Dodge to show even you... the differences. But I assure you, the differences between the plastic in that Dodge and higher end cars is at least equivalent to the difference between Toyota's reputation and Chrysler's.

Then again, there was a girl I once knew who thought the previous generation Altima interior was "great."

urnews

If you sat in an Accord every day you would see the difference easily.

I'll just have to take your word for it for the time being. I sit in a 2007 AWD SEL Ford Fusion every day and the quality of the plastic seems just fine to me and everything fits exactly as it is supposed to.

andres3

Dude... if your transmission is only going to 5,000 RPM when you floor it, then something is either wrong with your transmission or engine. You might be driving a truck engine... that would be one explanation. Or you might be driving in an ancient domestic 3 speed auto that they seemed to use all the way up to the year 2000 and on.

I've gotten a 1992 Honda Civic DX Hatchback with 4 speed-Auto closer to 7K than 5K RPM, and that was when it was close to 200,000 miles. My 2003 Honda Accord LX v6 coupe would happily reach the redline or at least within 500 rpm's of it each time I floored it. Heck, even my Neon would usually come within 1K of the redline.

the audi likes to go 200-400 into the redline before shifting.... so what if it shifts even in manual mode... no reason to go more into the redline then that.... especially since the engine runs out of breath up there.... whereas Honda's just keep on breathing fire into the redline.

thegraduate

Regarding wanting other input about autos shifting before redline... here's my input:

I recently had to rush to the hospital for my hospitalized grandfather (he's home and recovering now). I was in my 1996 Accord at the time. It has a 4-speed Auto, with 130 hp. I was really booking it trying to get there, faster than I ever go. Luckily it was nearly midnight, and with my flashers on, people were moving out of my way. That being said, redline is 6,300RPM. In first and second gears, the car runs to about 6,000-6,100 RPM before shifting (at about 37 MPH, and 77 MPH). In third gear however, the car shifts at about 5,500 RPM into 4th/Overdrive, a little under 100 MPH.

I hope that helps.

On a sidenote, the car was still quite smooth (although loud) running those kind of RPMs and speeds. It ran 100 -105 MPH like a champ for a few miles of empty interstate. Not bad for 174k miles and 11.5 years for only 130 hp!

Also, my 2006 Accord 4-cyl Auto (redline: 6,500RPM) shifts about 6,200 RPM in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, Accord I have.

If my Accords shifted at 5,000 RPM, they'd never reach their horsepower peak (which is 5,250 RPM I think). I'd be WAY unhappy with that.

lilengineerboy

Multi-valve 4 cylinder and small V6 (like the 2.5 duratec) motors need to be pumping at a certain rate or better to take advantage of the improved breathing ability of the motor. VTEC compounds that effect.
My 2.0l 8v Mitsubishi motor felt faster off the line than the 2.2 in the Accord from the same era. Once we got to the skinny end of the tach, things reversed. Likewise, the 3.8l old world GM motor (and the BMW eta motor) is great from 0-30, but runs out of steam as the revs climb. I have driven a late 80s Bonneville around some hilly areas (Cincy) and never felt like it was lacking power, even with a full load of passengers.
I have never had an automatic myself, so I have never had to worry about when the car was shifting.

elroy5

Like Grad said with his cars, my 2 cars and 1 truck have all shifted about 200rpm before redline (92 and 03 Accords and 97 T100 Truck). None of my other cars had tachometers, so I couldn't tell you when they shifted.

csandste

honda part # 15400-PLM-A02= FRAM
honda part # 15400-PLM-A01= Filtech

I don't know much about Hondas but Fram did get part of the Honda contract. Fram filters are universally dissed, but only the "orange can-o-death" is actually bad. Actually there are many people happily using orange Frams, much of the bad rep. comes from a Mopar web page put up by a guy named Russ Knize. Everyone who ripped up and compared Frams piled on. Actually the namesake of Bobistheoilguy has done filter flow tests and the Frams, because there's so little inside do quite well in that department.

I don't know much about Honda filters but would be willing to bet that the Filtechs are much better constructed but that the Fram built units are closer to the upmarket silver Frams than the base orange units. Probably at least the equal of the ST Champions. Of course I'm sure they cost a great deal more.

m1miata

They do not use plastic toy quality plastics in their cars, is what people are trying to get across. Note the dash is more rubber like and softer on say the Accord for '07. Chrysler / Dodge interiors are cheaper. That said, the over all car value, as in getting RWD at a reasonable price, is still there. Not a bad value in that respect. I think the 3.5V6 300 is something like $28K and the Charger is $24K to $26K as starters with the better engine. I test drove a couple. Seems like slightly lighter feel to steering than I prefer, yet the car seems in control. Acceleration was in the getting it done class. If you like the tall doors and a bit of a challenge to see out of windows, the car offers a good size, RWD, a different look, and the seating is OK. I certainly would not say it is junk; it is just something different. The new Sebring I have nothing good to say about however, so I will leave it at that.
Loren

mz6greyghost

The Aura sales did not increase one iota because of the comparisons at dealer lots.

Do you know this for sure? I doubt it.

Quote:
Saturn's efforts helped boost Aura sales figures this summer. CNN reports that "Aura sales increased 24% from June, when the program started, through July. At the same time, the overall market for midsized cars went down 14%. July was the second-best month for the Aura since the car's launch in 2006."


article

colloquor

Mann of Germany manufacturers some of the best oil filters made, along with Purolator (specifically, the PureOne filter) here in the USA. Interestingly, a number of Asian manufacturers use Mann as their OEM source, but it's not the Japanese.

csandste

I thought Honda oil filters were identical to Hyundais. If so, $15 for a Fram, any Fram is a bit much. My assumption is what you're saying is that the Fram built Honda filters run $15 and the Filtech run $20, right. What do Wally-World orange Frams run about $3? ST's about $2.50. Fifteen bucks would get you a couple of real nice Purolators.

I have a Kia with the 4 cylinder Hyun/Kia/Mitsu/Chrysler world engine. Didn't replace the original filters but from experience the Hyundai filters are very well built. Remember some comment on bobistheoilguy by someone who used them on his Honda. That ought to give Honda dealers fits.

On an earlier post there were some comments about the drop in filter cartridge on Hyundais. That's the new v-6, I think.

I have no problems with Fram branded air filters. Just the orange oil filters-- cheesy, and the upmarket Fram oil filters-- too expensive.

elroy5

I compared air filters, not oil filters. The fram air filter is not the same as a Honda air filter. I haven't looked at the oil filters side by side, but would be a lot harder to determine since you can't see inside. I use only Honda parts, and they seem to work just fine for me. The price difference between the fram and Honda air filters was $5.00 ($15 vs $20) sorry for the confusion with oil filters. :surprise:

m6user

Sorry for the ignorance..but how would I do that?

m1miata

If you back some posts, it was from an article which was quoting GM as saying it was not effective. I do believe they increased the discounts a bit. The advertising increased, which helps. A 24% increase is a good thing. Of course the numbers are still too low. A 23.7% fleet sales for the first half of 2007 may be some indicator. Maybe they kicked in some extra fleet sales, or something. 20,888 for the first half of the year, as retail sales, divided by six is around 3,481 per month. If you increased that number by 24% you have 835.5 more cars sold that month for retail. Hey, anything going up is a good thing. I simply do not understand the marketing however. Now they will have Saturn Auras, and New Malibus with the same engines and drive-trains. Now add in the original, the G6 and they compete with even more for a piece of the pie. I did not test drive that other Epsilon, the other of the four, or will that soon be five brothers, the SAAB 9-3. They say those drive nice.
And there may be yet another one as a Cadillac the BLS, or it may be scrapped for USA. Oh yeah, the sixth would be the Fiat.... oh I'll pass on that one :P I am thinking, for the photos of the interior, the coolest of the lot is gonna be the New Malibu. Not to say if someone gave me an Aura XR or a SAAB I would not be more than happy to drive it. :shades: Loren

robertsmx

I don't see anything wrong in those photos of the Dodge interior. Am I missing something?

Yes you did. Or perhaps you might if I compared hard plastic in one (Honda) to the hard plastic in the other (Dodge). Excuse the coloration, I took the Honda's picture under fluorescent lamp and didn't change my camera's settings (manual mode).
Honda

Dodge


Do you see any difference? To me their similarities end with the fact that they are both hard plastics (the dark shade in the Honda pic is hard plastic, the lighter shade is padded vinyl so don't worry about that). The point is: Not all hard plastics are created equal. And there is a quality gap that can be so obvious yet, I'm surprised, so obscure/non-existent to many (please don't take it personally).

robertsmx

Here is another example of poor quality (relatively speaking, of course). And I've the eyes for it, and can't stand these kind of stuff in my car.


The gap below the seek button shows you two steel plates. It spells cheap to me. Sure it should work fine and most may not notice it, but too bad, things like this are good reasons for me to dismiss many vehicles.

robertsmx

Usually, it is first gear (or, occasionally, first two gears) with AT that revs are limited. The rest of the gears may allow you to hit redline. So it is still true. In my 1998 Accord, it will shift out of first at 5800 rpm (redline is 6300 rpm) but will go to redline in second gear (about 75 mph).

Some manumatics will allow you to hold first gears thru redline too (Acura TSX's does that).

m1miata

Well it is robbing some interior qualities to give you say the RWD and a unique styling. Chrysler, like every other car, is the sum of its parts, and thus if ya like the sum, buy it. There are some things people value more than other items. Interiors is not a strong point for Chrysler's at all. As I recall, I always thought the old cars had GM first with Body by Fisher, then perhaps the Ford line, and lastly the Chrysler's, with a tinny sound when doors closed and such. But Chrysler did other things well back when, like engines, and some cool looking cars, like the Challenger and Charger. Now you have cars based on a Mitsubishi platform, with crummy interiors and weird looks IMHO, like the Sebring, which makes me shake my head. But this doesn't mean Chrysler is not a car to consider, as there are other cars within the line which could suite ya just fine. And value wise, a RWD Charger, with a 3.5 V6 is pretty reasonably priced -- and yes, we know, not a top line dash on the thing, but it is not like it is the worst thing since a Yugo.
L

m1miata

Oh my, you are kinda the picky one. I have noticed a change in the Camry, which was not for the better. I do not like fake aluminum colors plastic and the dash parts seemed slightly misaligned. For a Toyota, this was a shocker. That, plus the tranny problems, scared me away altogether, though I also prefer more steering feel and look for the handling aspect of a car. And my Dad has a 2000 Camry, so I already drive that a lot, so I skipped test drives when looking for my car in 2007.
My 1998 Corolla had a lot of nice soft padded plastic, and looked richer than the new Corollas. Comes a time! L

robertsmx

RWD is no excuse. Once there is a platform, there is nothing exceptional about it being RWD or FWD. And there is absolutely no excuse for poor quality parts if the price tag is high (no wonder they can't sell without massive rebates).

I drove a 300 for a few hundred miles earlier this year and for most part it is a good car with decent handling and good size. The engine was 3.5/V6 which was fine and got the job done well (the mileage sucked, and thats another issue). But at the same time, the engine sounded metallic. And there in lies the problem.

Besides quality issues, the focus has been all wrong. Anytime they come out with a car, the focus is on how to market hemi. And with oil price up, utter disregard for "reality" brings the companies back to earth.

robertsmx

Yes I am.

Couple of weeks ago, I had to drive a friend to a Mazda dealership for a CX-7 test drive. The sales person took us to a top of the line CX-7. The first impression was very positive. The sales person kept babbling, and started to dismiss Acura RDX being sold next door. By this time, I had figured out a use for my index finger. I decided to touch the center console and it moved. I looked at the sales person and smiled. And told him, yes the RDX costs more, but you won't see this in it. Sales people hate me.

Camry has gone down the drain too. I was very disappointed with a rental I had late last year. I thought the green-blue trend on audio system had died earlier this decade, Toyota decided to revive it. I couldn't stand it when I first saw the pictures of the Camry, and then came the first hand experience with the poorer quality.

m1miata

Let me try this another way. The RWD car tends to cost more. So you can have the finer qualities of a Bimmer, as in better interior, with a super engine, like the inline six in the BMW, but price goes up. I agree, they need to work on the interiors of the Chrysler line. I was not overly impressed with the steering feel. It was better than the worst, but on the lighter side of being just right for me. Yes, Hemi is all played out by now. Seems like those Hemi engines should cost about the same to build, or less than the 3.5V6, so they do make them a good profit. Funny, so funny to see all the fat cats at auto auctions going for them - there Hemi's. Recall when it was all Mustangs and Shelby's and such. Always liked the 'Cuda and Challenger, so perhaps a big mistake was not buying them when they were just another car. And the AMX? Guess it is still not as popular, but whatta looker she is. I even see more Camaro's every year. It is like they are having babies, and showing up all over the place. I always loved the first generation Camaro. Actually all the Pony cars, come to think of it. But is was almost like everyone and their brother had to buy a classic Stang. If it was no so thin skinned, a 240Z would be so cool to own. Compared to the Datsun Z my 1996 Miata I owned, is an army tank in comparison to those Z cars of paper thin steel. I did think they were so cool, like having a baby Jag XKE. L

robertsmx

The RWD car tends to cost more.

I don't see why they would.

m1miata

I don't know the particulars, but in the past, I think it was something like $300 to $500 more for assembly. Then there is the weight issue. Will take more engineering and better materials to keep weight the same. Seems like it should not cost all that much more to build RWD, but it seems to add several thousand in the end. Wild guess, is that they run a thousand or two more to make, and sell for at least three thousand over the FWD cars? We need the engineers which were on the forum which closed down, to give some real figures here on this. And times change, so perhaps the assembly is no big deal these days. But it is in fact more costly overall to build. I am old enough to recall the days when a FWD was something quite unique. About as rare as spotting a Mini or a Citroen on the road.

Maybe the retired Olds engineer has kept up with costs in building a modern day RWD and can give us some imput. A little help here!
L

elroy5

I don't see the great fascination for RWD? Sure, it's best for drag racing, but what are the other benefits? If you like RWD so much, why did you buy a FWD car (Accord right?)?

robertsmx

Cost depends on platform, its engineering and amortization of the costs. A high volume RWD platform may be cheaper per car than a lower volume FWD platform. It is also possible that even with same volume, a RWD platform is cheaper than FWD platform, if the latter is more advanced. Comparing costs isn't quite that simple.

Besides, since we see those quality issues in front drive vehicles also, the problem exists regardless.

pat

The benchmark argument is over. Expect that any post bringing it up again will be removed.

Sweeping general negative statements similar to "you [fill in the brand] owners are [fill in the blank with something negative]" are disruptive and useless. They also will be removed.

Comments slamming other posters for their comments will also disappear. If you do not like what someone else has posted either rebut it factually instead of personally or skip it altogether. Personal comments and insults do not belong here.

Once again - we are here to discuss the vehicles in this segment. We are not here to bait and taunt each other, we should be careful about reacting to baiting and taunting and we should keep our own posts on topic, meaning about the cars in this segment - not about the manufacturers and not about each other.

Posts have been removed. Email me with any questions or comments.