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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I think the Fusion styling is unique, but bland.

    Wow, really. I don't care for the styling myself, but bland??? The excessive chrome grill is certainly not bland. I'm pretty sure if you look up the definition of that word, there is a picture of the current Accord there :P ;) .

    The best looking of these cars is clearly the Mazda6 :D ;) . This is proven by Toyota's feeble attempt to copy some of its appearance features into the new Camry.

    The Altima is not appealing to me at all. The only thing the new design accomplishes is to make the previous version look not so bad. Maybe if they did something to make the rear end not look so "heavy"...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    As for the Fusion making the Accord and Camry look "frumpy", park the Fusion next to an Aura, or Altima, or even the old Mazda6, and suddenly the Fusion looks pretty frumpy, in my eyes.

    I saw an Aura on the road today and I was reminded that it is a very slick looking car, especially the rear 3/4 view. Maybe because there is actually some sheet metal on the car, vs. all tailights and headlamps as on the Altima. ;) The Mazda6 is an old design now but I think it's worn well, especially the Special Value Edition available now with minimal ground effects, big alloys, and blacked-out lamps.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I say you need both.

    Oh if I get both by all means bring on the balloons to keep my head out of the grill of an SUV driven by someone the phone as they mow through a red light.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    The truth is, according to the data from JD Powers AND Consumer Reports, that the difference between cars in this category over a five year period is minimal, and the chances are that the problem that does occur is going to be minor which does not require immediate and emergency attention. So any talk about how much more reliable a certain car is without any verifiable statistics is baseless or at least anecdotal. Because the data that really does exist shows that the differences in reliability between cars in this class is quite small, and would probably surprise most buyers.

    I do understand your reluctance to trust a certain brand because of personal expererience... but working in electronics retail showed me that EVERY manufacturerer has problems so if every one of those customers with a bad experience means that brand was bad, well there would be no brands to buy. I will pay attention to blogs and forums to get a gauge of what areas are problematic, but I will always give more weight to studies that gather information from thousands of sources and not just one.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Furthermore, Ford, GM, and all other mfrs replace faulty parts under warranty. Why point out that Honda did too? It's not like they did anything any other mfr would have done.

    Incorrect!!!! You couldn't be more wrong. Dodge never offered to ante up for fixing my early death faulty tranny in my Dodge. Chrysler didn't come to the rescue either. In fact, when I asked the Dodge dealer why I had to keep coming back and why the car kept breaking down, the reply was, "cars just breakdown, parts just break down." So I was left out in the cold by Chrysler/Dodge. I will never buy an American vehicle again because of THAT tranny failure. The same thing happened to me again in my V6 Accord from 2003, but Honda stepped up and fixed it AFTER warranty technically expired. Not only did they pay to fix it, but they paid for the rental, ordered the new tranny assembly overnight shipping, and got me back on the road on Wednesday after taking the car in on Monday morning. I paid nothing. For the Dodge, I paid about $1,200 to fix it. I will buy a Honda again if I feel like it. I will never ever until hell freezes over and pigs fly on the same day buy a Chrysler made product.

    Honda stands behind their products, I have serious doubts about the Big 3. Heck, they might not even exist in 4 years when your tranny fails in that Ford, GM, or Chrysler product, what then, no one to go to for Warranty repairs! Think about that! They will go out of business and screw all of their customers in a heartbeat.

    Also, it didn't hurt that the Tranny issue was the ONLY mechanical issue in my Honda, meanwhile the Dodge had 100 problems mechanically, literally.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    The 2003 Accord Coupe offerred me 240 HP with 30 MPG on the highway (EPA rating). It offered traction control, ABS, power driver's seat, built-in alarm/security system, 6 CD changer, and I got it all for 25K out the door.

    What other vehicle could I have purchased THAT MEETS or exceeds, get that... MEETS or EXCEEDS (not comes close in some area or other) in November of 2002?

    21/30 mpg, 240 HP, very good handling and interior fit and finish, excellent build quality.
  • thenebeanthenebean Posts: 1,124
    all of that is nice - but its not "lightyears" ahead of the other sedans available at that time...

    if that's what you consider "lightyears" though...i don't know what to tell ya...

    -thene :)
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    Oh Really?

    -You are aware that Honda's last gen. 3.5 engine, used in my neighbors Odyssey (and the reworked one is in my Pilot) was removed from the van as oil was not reaching a part of the engine. It was an engineering issue and req'd redesign. This was not publicized because Honda found the issue before it was reported. It req'd removing 22,000 Odyssey engines and shipping them for the work.

    -You are aware the last generation Acura MDX had transmission failure issues and so many brake failures that they faced recalls to change the master cylinder. The Civic has also had serious brake issues after 50,000 miles

    -You are aware that this generations Accord has had hundreds of thousands of center stack cluster failures (stereo units only).

    Consumers are seriously misled if they believe that a car manufacturer is bulletproof and their models are free from defect in engineering or design. Even the best manufacturers deal with recalls as they have to deal with part makers they outsource to. They also sometimes make mistakes in the engineering process.

    This is a fact: the level of quality between the best and worst manufacturer today is so small, in defects per 100 vehicles, that the over publication of 'quality' being owned by a few manufacturers is ridiculous. Do most people realize that we are talking about 1 problem (and that problem could be a seatbelt handle as in the Hyundai Sonata) per 100 vehicles between the best and worst. Yet JDPower is making millions publicizing this very subjective data. Fact is that Kia's are just about the same as Lexus's. If you dispute this simply study the data.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Maybe the issue then isn't so much the product, but how the manufacturer stands behind the product.

    In all the examples I've seen, Toyota and Honda stepped up warranties and did what was in their power to minimize the inconvenience to the customer. It was almost like they were ashamed or embarrassed about it.

    I am sure others can come up with examples of other manufacturers not taking this route.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Maybe the issue then isn't so much the product, but how the manufacturer stands behind the product.

    A very keen observation.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Fact is that Kia's are just about the same as Lexus's. If you dispute this simply study the data."

    What comes to mind here are lies, damn lies and statistics. If you believe the data shows Kia is on par with Lexus with regard Lexus' overall track record, I don't know what to say.

    There is not a manufacturer on the face of this planet who can claim they have had a perfect track record. Buying a car is a crap shoot. You can end up with a lemon from the worlds best manufacturer. Conversly you can end up with a stellar experience from the world worst manufacturer.

    Having said that, I would rather take my chances with some, than with others.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    One manufacturer could have 10 problems all in one car, thereby losing a customer for life, while another could have 1 problem in 10 vehicles, thereby simply annoying but not losing 10 customers.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Remember we're talking about the midsize sedans, please. We're going off-topic a lot in the past few pages and that always gets us into trouble.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that this generations Accord has had hundreds of thousands of center stack cluster failures (stereo units only).
    know of one that did exactly this BUT Honda replaced it even though the car was well out of any warranties. However, the whole concept that any manufactuer of anything is somehow exempt from problems is ridiculous, how they handle it once it does happen is something else.
    If I remember correctly, the previously mentioned Nissan engine problem, had Nissan suspending 4 cylinder model sales (at the dealer level) as well as discontinuing production until that problem was solved. That, in my mind, is being proactive, and a good example of a responsive mfgr..
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    The differences in SE-V6 and EX-V6 are as night and day as LX 4-cyl and EX-L 4-cyl, and their $4,000 difference in MSRP reflects that. It isn't just minor stuff. it's leather, heated seats, auto climate control, black plastic trim vs. wood/alumininum trim, etc...

    Can't compare an SE-V6 to an LX 4-cyl though... SE 4-cyl is the correct comparison. LX 4-cyl has steelies. About the only thing in the EX-V6 to me that actually is nice to have would be the XM sat radio.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    However, the whole concept that any manufactuer of anything is somehow exempt from problems is ridiculous, how they handle it once it does happen is something else.

    Truer words were never written, Captain2.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    either way, the driving dynamics and styling of the nissans are more appealing to me than the other midsized sedans in this class. not that they are bad cars - im sure they are all fantastic! just not for me...


    I feel the same exact way about our Fusion. I would substitute Fusions for Nissans in your sentence. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Fair enough (we're really nit-picking). I was thinking about the interior trim. All black plastic in the SE V6 and LX 4-cyl. The SE 4-cyl gives you upgraded trim.
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    What comes to mind here are lies, damn lies and statistics.'

    We have a conspiracy theorist here and I am talking about initial quality, which is the first 90 days of ownership. Kia has about 125 problems per 100 vehicle. This is from surveys. Lexus has a little under 100. So we are talking about a very small percentage of problems the owners of Lexus' and Kia's are experiencing in the first 90 days of ownership.
    One of our clients bought a Lexus IS250awd and had two problems in the first 90 days. Lexus came and picked up the car and dropped it back off. They also gave her a choice of a gift on both occasions. She was begged not to report the problems on the survey. She didn't. She was very happy still. You believe what you want.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Honda would never allow engine problems like Nissan did.

    nissan didn't "allow" the problem. It showed up, and was quickly corrected. It can and does happen to every automobile manufacture.
    They are in different leagues reliability and quality control wise

    no they aren't. I have a 9 yr old nissan in my driveway with 145k miles on it that has not had 1 repair made to it. doesn't get any better than 0

    Maintenance means little to nothing to a well built reliable and dependable car

    it has everything to do with it. My job involves visiting hundreds of repair shops, and meeting upwards of a thousand mechanics a year. I can quite confidently tell you that the majority of cars being fixed in garages are being fixed because they weren't properly maintained. and yes, I see plenty of hondas, and toyotas; along with every other make of car. The overwhelming number of engines replacements are done because the engine sludged up from lack of proper oil changes. the overwhelming number of radiator/head gasket repairs are made because the cooling system was never flushed. the vast majority of transmissions needing replaced/rebuilt are because they were never flushed. It is absolutely astonishing how people treat their cars. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen a radiator flushed and the water comes out brown with tiny peices of corrosion in it, or the number of times I've seen engines so sludged up that oil couldn't even be poured in because it couldn't drain down. If you in any way doubt this, stop changing your oil and come back in 15,000 miles and let me know how your car is doing.

    oh, and I never said much about how you drive it. cars shouldn't be any less reliable if they're driven hard.
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