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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Agreed. Many forget to point out Hyundai has only been in the US for 20 years, while Toyota and Honda both have been around here for 50 years (Toyota 50+; Honda - just shy of 50 years). I hope many remember there was a time when both Toyota and Honda was, well, let's just say, not as successful as they are today. They were in the same position as Hyundai about ten, fifteen years ago, but the difference, Hyundai is improving and changing the game at a much faster rate.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Exhaust systems

    Count me in the group of Accord owners who have great luck with exhaust systems. My 95 EX I4 manual (that my son now drives) with 220k miles still has the original system, including the muffler. I'm sure it will go any day now. :)
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    There are pluses and minuses to either one - rebate or incentives. Rebates are taxable in CA and dealer incentives are not. Rather, rebates are used to offset the purchase price plus all add-ons, taxes, doc fees,license/registration, etc. figure, as are cash you contribute and/or trade-in. You have to be smart to get most/all of the dealer incentives - but the dedicated Prices Paid Forums really help. They are likely to pass on the entire dealer incentive amount - since there is a 3% holdback on a Honda.

    I remember Accords always being discounted here in CA since the late 1980s. So, I don't share your experience as to paying above MSRP.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    I think the Sonata is a nice looking car. I like the styling of it as much as the Accord. It looks to me like the visibility is a bit better from the inside of the Sonata, because the rear roof pillars aren't as thick as they are on the Accord. Also, look at the features you get on even the base level Sonata--XM Radio (can't get that on the Accord until you go to the exl), stability control (can't get that unless you get the V6), etc.. I love xm radio (which I have as an aftermarket unit on my 02 Accord), and it seems like the advantages of stability control outweigh the disadvantages.

    And so far, the people who own the Sonata seem to like it. I'm just surprised that sales aren't higher. Is it still the left over discrimination against cars in the late 80s and early 90s that weren't that good?
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    They are paying more for the Accord because the media has beat it into thier heads that it is worth it when it is not.
    The Fusion is by far a better value, costing thousands less.

    A .5 second difference?? is a whole lot faster?? can you count to a 1/2 second???

    This room is turning into a joke. Once again the Honda fans get to bash away at the Fusion/Sonata or anyone else that differs on their opinion. I have threads taken off that are not near as bad as are posted on here! :mad:
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    This room is turning into a joke. Once again the Honda fans get to bash away at the Fusion/Sonata or anyone else that differs on their opinion. I have threads taken off that are not near as bad as are posted on here!

    Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    I don't interpret it as bashing anything non-Honda, more like crowing cause the Accord is that good, even being a 6 year old model. Why take a chance on a Ford (weak reputation) or a Hyundai (unproven to the masses) when you can just buy an Accord and rest easy?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Let me clarify what I said earlier: these incentives and deals on the Accord didn't just start appearing in the past few months, on 5-year-old Accords (design-wise). They have been around for about 2 years. Coinciding with the arrival of the '06 Sonata, the first truly competitive mid-sized offering from Hyundai. I don't think it was a coincidence.

    It will be interesting to see what happens if Honda drops incentives on the 2008 Accords and dealers try to sell them at or near MSRP, especially if MSRP goes up. Then it will be back to a $5000-6000+ difference between the Sonata/Optima and the Accord, if Hyundai/Kia maintain current levels of incentives.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I suppose it won't matter as the Accord, will sell like hot cakes. I wouldn't be the least surprise if the Accord is the #1 car sold in America, in 2008. ;)

    Rocky
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Why take a chance on a Ford (weak reputation) or a Hyundai (unproven to the masses) when you can just buy an Accord and rest easy?

    In the case of the Sonata two reasons immediately come to mind; price and warranty. Then there's the 5 year roadside service and features of each car.

    We just bought an '07 Sonata SE w/XM for $3357 LESS than Edmund's TMV. What is the street price of a comparable ACCORD?

    We may be looking at a real price difference of $5,000 or more right now. If the comparable Honda is the LX V-6, Edmunds says the TMV is $24,282 and there is a $750 to dealer incentive. If 100% of the incentive is granted to the consumer, the TMV price would be $23,532.

    If I compare our actual Sonata purchase price to the TMV for the Accord, I'm looking at a savings of $6481 for the Sonata. Are Accords selling below TMV? If so, by how much?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I don't think Sonata/Optima are likely to ever steal sales from Accord. They are much more likely to steal sales from cars with less loyal buyers (Galant, Malibu, Fusion, Sebring). To think that the 06 Sonata affected Accord incentives, is exaggeration, if not fantasy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Just looking at your subject line...

    ...thanks for not going the personal route :sick: .
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    That wouldn't surprise me, either. Few things do these days. However, the mid-sized market is a different than it was in the fall of 2002, when the current Accord design debuted. Back then, you had the Camry, Altima, and then-new Mazda6 as clear-cut front-runners in the class. The competition is much stiffer now, with new-for-2007 Camry and Altima still there; the Aura, Fusion, Legacy, and Milan; the Sonata and Optima; the Passat; and all-new Mazda6 and Malibu due for 2008. So if Honda tries pricing the Accord too high, there are lots of good alternatives for price-conscious buyers.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I try not to get personal. I deal with that way too much and I have many wounds to prove it. ;)

    The 08' Accord, I think will indeed be a nice car. I like the pics I see as it finally has character. I being a former Acura TL, owner (a mistake) did like the product very much but hated the service. I however do think a SH-AWD Acura TL, would be a hit. It will need enough power to overcome the AWD problem if they aren't going to make it a RWD car. I think it would be more popular as a SH-AWD car anyways but it's going to have to come in with plenty of power and have the "gadgetology" to once again become a class leader. We will see.....This fall the best mid-size automobile even though I's perfer the Holden grill is the RWD Pontiac G8. If they make a HSV version of this car like they do in Australia, their isn't another non-lux car out on the market that will touch it's handling and power. It's basically a street legal race car in HSV trim. I however won't expect to see a HSV for a year or two. Acura, right now has the best chance to meet the G8's power. They better not under estimate the G8's impact on their own sales. I still think Acura, would be best to Twin-Turbo their V6 to make the power. Like I said we will see as more and more sporty and luxury cars hit this segment. The new Mazda6 and Mazdaspeed 6 is coming. Of course we have the Spec. B Subie. The RWD Impala in 2009. How bout the 2010 Buick Velite Sedan ? I'm just saying it's going to be a crowded field as more and more offerings hit the midsize segment. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    backy, couldn't agree with you more. I as I said in my last e-mail can't believe how crowded this field will get. I guess I should of left out the 09' RWD Impala, as I forgot it will be considered a large car then. The malibu, will take the current Impala's place. ;)

    Rocky
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    these incentives and deals on the Accord didn't just start appearing in the past few months, on 5-year-old Accords (design-wise). They have been around for about 2 years.

    Not according to Edmunds and other sources. There was no dealer incentive when I bought my Accord in March of 06. They started soon after, however, :(
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Manufacturers only offer discounts for one reason, and one reason only. To sell more cars. There is a variety of reasons why they want to sell more cars, such as clearing space for new models, or reaching some sales goal ect. they don't start handing out 1500 dollars to buyers just because the design is old. a $1500 rebate reduces the profit to almost nothing on a camry, altima, accord, or similar mid size sedan.

    the same will hold true if buying a car at the end of the year. If for example, you want an altima and they're still selling 25-30% over last years numbers, good luck getting a rebate. If nissan can sell them without one, they aren't going to offer one. ditto for any other car. If you want a rebate on a good selling car, you'll have to wait till jan, or feb, of '08 when they will want all the 07 cars off the lot.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    I don't interpret it as bashing anything non-Honda, more like crowing cause the Accord is that good, even being a 6 year old model. Why take a chance on a Ford (weak reputation) or a Hyundai (unproven to the masses) when you can just buy an Accord and rest easy?


    Considering this post blatantly breaks the guidelines established in the first post:

    Well, duh, it's about midsize sedans. But here is what it is not about:

    # manufacturers issues

    # manufacturer vs. manufacturer...


    Then yes, Scape does have a valid point.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    Not all of these incentives to dealers are public knowledge. Dealers can choose to pass them along to buyers or apply them to their profits. For example, if you look at Edmunds.com now for incentives on the Accord, what do you see? Awhile ago, Hyundai was offering manufacturer-to-dealer incentives on the Sonata, and these didn't show up at Edmunds.com either.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    1995 Dodge Stratus with 184,240 miles and the exhaust system is entirely original. It has been in Pa its entire life and has seen its share of road salt. It is a stainless steel system which is a great thing. Pa has an annual vehicle inspection and the exhaust is one of the things looked at so I can't avoid repair if it is found to be leaking.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    If you or scape2 or anyone else believes a post to be inappropriate, please email me your concerns. Since I host many discussions, please give me the name of the discussion along with the post numbers. And please give me your user name since I can't tell that from your email address.

    You can always get my email address from my profile at the top of any discussion I host, but it's not too hard: pat AT edmunds.com ;)

    Thanks - I appreciate the assist, always!! :)
  • mattgg1mattgg1 Posts: 191
    Backy -

    Where did you get your information about incentives on Accords appearing 2 years ago?

    I purchased my Accord in April 2006 and there were NO incentives at that time. To my knowledge, incentives on the Accord were only made available within the last 6 months or so.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    $750 Incentives were put in place for a few months at the end of the Accord's 2006 model year, IIRC.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    Since this discussion frequently strays into a "Honda equals a no-brainer choice that even an automotive dim-wit can buy without regret or fear" sort of mindset I'll give an opposing opinion. We bought our first ever Honda product, a 2006 Civic EX sedan automatic, in Nov 2005. It has had both rear shocks replaced at about 4K miles but the rear suspension noise that resulted from leaking shocks started on the drive home from the dealer @ 6 miles showing. It has had two (of about a dozen potential bulletins for the 06 Civic alone) service bulletins applied, both for abnormal noises. The second required replacement of the right upper motor mount. The interior plastics used are of terrible quality, particularly on the door trim where the door pull/arm rest is. It is a "waffle" pattern that scratches easily and irrevocably. The pattern in the cloth on the driver seat bolster has begun to disappear (as in wear off)and the fabric itself is bunching up on that same bolster. The car has excessive wind/road noise. On the other hand fuel economy is fairly good on the road and we have not had any driving issues except for the interior noise and the 5 speed auto that shifts out of 5th into 4th at the very thought of an incline not to mention a hill. I am not entirely happy with Honda and yes,I was one of those who went into this with that Honda = quality mindset. How did I get that? print media (all those golden articles in all those car and consumer magazines) and word of mouth (ask ANY Honda owner it never breaks). The car currently has 7,358 miles not a typo 7 thousand miles. I previously owned (and several in our family still own)Hyundai products which by comparison were and are trouble free at 10 to 20X the mileage of the Honda. I am a lone voice in the wilderness....
  • They are paying more for the Accord because the media has beat it into thier heads that it is worth it when it is not.
    The Fusion is by far a better value, costing thousands less.

    A .5 second difference?? is a whole lot faster?? can you count to a 1/2 second???

    This room is turning into a joke. Once again the Honda fans get to bash away at the Fusion/Sonata or anyone else that differs on their opinion. I have threads taken off that are not near as bad as are posted on here!


    -

    Scape, I'll further support my case by asking you to look more closely at the performance numbers. In the Car & Driver article I referenced "The Quickest Cars of 2007: Less than $20,000," they clock the Accord 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. In the same article, the Mazda3 s, being smaller/lighter than the Fusion but having the saving engine, beats the Accord to 60 by 0.2 seconds.

    However, look at the "street start" 5-60 mph numbers. In my opinion, this is a good measure of an engines' usable torque and makes a big difference in throttle response around town or in traffic. The Mazda3 s, although faster than the Accord 0-60, is SLOWER than the Accord from 5-60 by 0.8 seconds! (Accord 7.9 versus Mazda3 8.7 5-60 mph).

    The 5-60 time of the Accord is only 0.1 second off from the faster, more powerful, 6-speed manual Altima! I think that's noteworthy.

    According to C&D, the Fusions "street start" time is 9.0 seconds, or over a second slower than the Accord. That is a difference you can really feel when driving both cars.

    AGAIN, does that mean I am "bashing away" at the Fusion? No! Most people don't care too much how quick their car will respond to throttle inputs. I'm just here to talk and compare midsize sedans. Can we do that? You are right, the Fusion is a great value, of course the resale value is less so it roughly evens out.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    because the media has beat it into thier heads that it is worth it when it is not.
    The Fusion is by far a better value, costing thousands less.

    The media has somehow determined what an Accord is worth??!! Give me a break and the American autobuyer a little credit! Economics 101- it is the buyers that determine the worth of anything not scape2 and certainly not captain2. In this case it is several hundred thousand of buyers that determine what the Camcord and the Fusion is worth both now and later. Economics 102 - 'value' can have little to do with initial price.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Since this discussion frequently strays into a "Honda equals a no-brainer choice that even an automotive dim-wit can buy without regret or fear" sort of mindset I'll give an opposing opinion

    No, your not the only one who feels that way. I know a civic is not an accord, but i was so unimpressed with my civic i never even seriously considered the accord when i made my last purchase. I pretty much was picking between the camry and altima. And to be fair, the civic runs great (although I do have to fork out the $$$ for the timing belt change that I never have to with chained nissans) but the interior is just so cheap, and poorly constructed that I wasn't even going to take a chance with the accord. I still can't believe the mid level trim came with a tape player instead of cd. But the problems you described are spot on. the damn texture to the plastics, inaddition to the scratching problem) are a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to keep clean. and the cloth on the door pannel fell off durring year two. just a cheap glue holding it on.

    And as I said, I know the accord is of much higher quality than both the civic and competition in its class. The catch, though, is the price. Out of all the midsize sedans out there, the accord is always the most expensive......and usally several thousand more. Sure, they're rebating the hell out of 'em now, and sales are way up. But, I'd be willing to bet when the 08's show up, the price rises, and the rebates dissapear; you won't get one off the lot for less than 23-24k. For any who doubt, look at the civic. redisgned in 06, much better, nicer car, and much more expensive. At my local honda dealer, the base models are starting at about 18,300. as a result, its the most expensive compact in market, and sales (so far this year) are down about 15%
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    It is a circular argument. The media ALWAYS says that Honda is golden in all manner of ways and the American auto shopper sees, reads, believes and buys the NEW Honda (much like I did) thus keeping resale up because the media says Honda is golden and the perspective USED car buyer also sees, reads, believes, and wants..you guessed it..a used Honda. How do you think this determined "worth" comes about? It starts with good press. If you think the media (consumer and auto test magazines stating Honda is GOOD)don't have any effect on the "worth" of a used Accord/Civic etc. or conversely any relatively negative comments about a Ford product have a "less than positive" effect on the resale of that Ford product you are incorrect. It is a game of perception initiated by the media. The car itself may..or may not...be so golden in the end but perception is king...
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and using the Honda as a reference - there are VALID statistical studies that the new (or used) Honda is likely to be a less troublesome car than any Ford ever thought of being. Reference: the CR 07 Auto issue. BTW if and when Honda makes a car that does not live up to expectations, that 'perception' honeymoon you are talking about will become a 20 year marriage, prices will go down, as will scape's 'value'.
    I believe, that in general, the Fusion is viewed pretty favorably, perhaps the 'best' Ford product out there, which is definitely a relative consideration. Again, IMPO, I might look at it seriously once they can improve their engines and stop supporting the Mexican economy. Until then, it'll likely be the new Altima 3.5/CVT or possibly the new (09?)Accord (if it is as 'developed' as I think it will be) in my driveway.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    In terms of Honda, let's try to stick to the Accord here. The Civic isn't in this class and Honda as a manufacturer is not the subject. Thanks.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    According to C&D, the Fusions "street start" time is 9.0 seconds, or over a second slower than the Accord. That is a difference you can really feel when driving both cars.

    This 9.0 sec time from 5-60 for 4 cyl manual transmission Fusion lacks credibility, since CR got 9.5 sec for 0-60 in a 4 cyl automatic (march 2006). And they do their test by just stomping on the gas pedal.
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