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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I agree the Aura looks great. 18" wheels tho? Check out the prices of replacing those. MPGs could be an issue, as it seems to be with GM. I'd like GM to do well in this sector. My apprehension with GM tho is how their cars will perform after 4+ years and 80,000+ miles on them. Lucky for me, folks like you will provide that answer to me down the road with your purchase today.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    akirby - have said several times that I don't believe the Fusion is competitive simply because of what's under the hoods - something I also believe is easily confirmed by just reading the engine/FE specifications (and a test drive). Obviously an opinion nonetheless, that you Ford folks must take personally for some reason - you'll note that I purposely didn't mention the Fusion in this post because that is not what the post is about, it was about what appears to be a really good effort by a different 'Detroit' mfgr.. If it was Ford that had the 3.6 instead of the Saturn, I would be talking about it in the same sort of terms as the Aura, believe it or not. Go out and drive the XR, other than some untamed torque steer (kinda like my wife's Altima) you will find a wonderfully powerful car that also manages to be smooth and quiet - the way it should be.

    I think that it will be the 08 Malibu (because it should be a marginally cheaper and higher volume model) that will establish a 'Detroit' benchmark in this class, and it is better for all of us, the autoworkers, and this country in general that both it, the Aura and even the Fusion do well.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    My point is the Fusion is very competitive from an overall standpoint. The fact that it doesn't meet your requirements doesn't make it uncompetitive.

    I could just as easily say the Accord, Camry, Aura and Sonata are not competitive because they don't offer AWD but that would be silly.

    Why can't we use phrases like "I don't like" or "doesn't meet my needs" instead of "not competitive" or "not as good"?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I could just as easily say the Accord, Camry, Aura and Sonata are not competitive because they don't offer AWD but that would be silly
    yes, you could, and not be 'silly' at all and probably generate a more meaningful discussion on whether the benefits of AWD are worth what you pay for it at the gas pumps.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    It would be silly because not everyone wants or needs AWD, just like not everyone wants or needs a 260 hp V6 or stability control or navigation or a hybrid or Sync - etc. etc. etc.

    What's good or not good or competitive or not competitive is an individual, subjective decision based on personal preferences and is only meaningful based on a specific set of requirements.

    Everything else is just arguing that accomplishes nothing.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "just like not everyone wants or needs a 260 hp V6"

    Yes, but if it comes with equal or better fuel economy why wouldn't you want it?

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,771
    As I could say the Aura is not competitive in this class because it comes only with a V6, and not a more fuel-efficient and lower-cost I4. But that would be silly. It's clearly competitive in the subclass of mid-sized V6 cars. And the Fusion/Milan are fully competitive in this class. Tops in class? Highly debatable. But competitive? Certainly.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Well it competes - it just can't win. The Fusion is a good car, but not as good as the best.
    Loren
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    Apparently it wins 12K-15K times every month.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Yes, but if it comes with equal or better fuel economy why wouldn't you want it?
    exactly, but maybe we should add 'sound and feel good doing it'?
    My wife pulls 25-26 mpg overall out of her 03 Altima 3.5, I pull a bit better than that out of my slightly heavier, bigger, and more powerful 05 Avalon - if we can have our cake, let's enjoy eating it as well!
    It all boils down to engine efficiencies and sophistication - those cars that have those kind of things are 'competitive' those that don't aren't. And I personally can't understand anybody that somehow wouldn't 'care' or FTM would take less when more is certainly available for about the same (net) costs.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    And I personally can't understand anybody that somehow wouldn't 'care' or FTM would take less when more is certainly available for about the same (net) costs.

    For "looks", AWD, and brand loyalty. That's the only reasons I can think of.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    What are the retail sales & discounts given on the Fusion?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    75-80% retail, $500-$1000 rebates. It's had a $500 rebate since day one even when supplies were short so I have to believe Ford simply built that into the pricing because some domestic buyers just won't buy without some type of rebate.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    The Fusion is a good car, but not as good as the best.

    unless reliability is the most important factor for a customer and they read that the fusion is the best in that category. or maybe they like the styling the best. or perhaps they feel better that it has AWD... I could go on and on, but who is any one of us to say what would be best for everyone else or to judge which car or drivetrain is "competitive" or not? as biased as I am toward Honda, Mazda, and Subaru, I could not, in good conscience, say that any of the cars listed above are not good cars.

    if a friend drove up in an Aura, Fusion, or Jetta, I would not say that they were dumb and tell them how much better my car was ...I'd ask them what they liked about it and congratulate them on making a choice that made them happy.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    OK, let me ask you this, would you buy a Fusion for less than a $3,000 off the sticker? What do you consider a good buy price on the Fusion V6. Would it be a value at the same cost of a discounted Accord SE or an Aura XR at say around $22,500 ? Are you at all worried about Ford's future as a company?

    As for looks, yeap, the Fusion or even better the Milan look pretty sharp, with a bit of tall butt. Did a brief drive test and the steering feels pretty darn good, with good engine and transmission performance. Overall, it was an OK car. The interior is good, but there is better. I would not pass it up if someone gave me one. :shades: I pretty much looked at all the cars in this class. Most impressive, IMHO, was the Aura XR and the Accord SE, especially the V6. The Altima, with CVT wasn't my cup o' tea, and I really disliked the emergency brake location. Push button start is something different. The Sonata is OK, but when pushed, like on a rough road, the suspension seemed like it was bottoming or making sounds of such. Steering was good, but not great. Seemed like an 85% car compared to the best or best tested. If you weight things like handling the most, I liked the Honda, then Aura, and Fusion. The Altima seemed a bit more noisey, with good cornering, but too light a steering feel about it. Accord and Fusion have better feel. I know, opinions, as some will prefer heavier feel.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Well I would too. Would say, let's go for a spin in the new car.

    This being a car forum, people are going to have to come to some conclusions on cars they have tested, and will have opinions on those cars. If a car is a best car if it does one or two tricks well, that's fine - no problem. It is your money, so if a car is a Yugo and ya like, once again that is fine. I should have qualified the first statement. The sum of all the cars design, looks, seats, drive train, abilities, resale, value, warranty, interior, exterior, safety equipment, standard features, you know from the hood prop to the gas cap = all inclusive, IMHO it is not the best of best. If you add only what is important to you and can live with the total cost to own, then fine, what the hey, it is number one.
    Loren
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    I noticed that some feel that the Fusion isn't competitive. I have driven one and feel that it is a very nice driving vehicle and has a nice interior with a lot of front seat room for a midsize. However, where it falls short as many others have noted is the engine. Its all been said before but IMO that is what kills the car. In terms of MSRP a loaded V6 Fusion isn't that much off from the V6 Cam/Cord/Alt. So if Ford didn't offer rebates and deep disounts at the dealer the Fusion wouldn't be competitive at all because it would be the same price as the rest with less power, FE, safety features, and creature comforts.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Update:

    We went out again last evening. At this point, my wife is dead-set to get a manual, whether or not it's AWD. After test-driving a slushbox or two, she just can't give up the manual (which makes me VERY proud, BTW!)

    '07 Mercury Milan Premier (4-cylinder, 5-speed manual): Yes, it's rare to have a Premier model with the 4-cylinder and 5-speed, but they're out there. Same initial impressions as before, but the 4-cylinder is a little more coarse than both the DT3.0 and the 2.5 4-cyl from the Altima. The 5-speed is pretty smooth to operate, but the car should either have a 6th gear or the gearing revised, because it revs higher than the 2.5S 6-speed at highway velocities, and I'm sure it affects both the NVH and fuel economy. The loaded Premier for the same price as the mid-grade 2.5S (without leather) was enticing though...

    After discussion over dinner, and reviewing the online offers from a couple different Nissan dealers, we decided to get the 2.5S. Why? That's easy:
    1. Great gas mileage (26 city, 35 hwy, which matches the current 2000 Neon 5-speed that she drives now)
    2. Very nice interior (IMO about five levels higher than the embarrasing interior that my mother has in her '03, with richer materials and excellent fit-and-finish)
    3. The 6-speed manual (which is smooth and easy to operate, isn't notchy, and feels better than my 5-speed in my Mazda6)
    4. Firm but nice ride, and excellent handling (better than everything else save my Mazda6, IMO)

    After comparing the local dealer offers, we ended up at the closest dealer to us, which is a small, family-run business that's been around for over 30 years selling Datsun/Nissan. My wife and I placed a deposit on an '07 Altima. It's the 2.5S, 6-speed manual, Majestic Blue with the Charcoal cloth interior, with the Convenience Plus package (leather wheel and shifter, power drivers seat, moonroof, 16" alloy rims, etc.) and floor mats. Despite the fact that it has to come from Connecticut (I'm in upstate NY), it's EXACTLY what my wife wants (yes, both she and I both currently drive and love a three-pedal car).

    It'll be shipped by early next week, and ready for pick-up by the 28th.

    We are VERY happy both with the car itself and the purchase experience, and hope to have excellent luck with it in the future.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    would you buy a Fusion for less than a $3,000 off the sticker?

    Price never entered into the equation. I don't shop on price - I buy whatever I like and try to get the best price on that. I'm too picky about styling and features. Before the Fusion debuted I had decided to get an Accord. But the Fusion had the looks and features I wanted and it had a unique Piano Black interior trim and unique Tungsten grey paint that I still think looks fantastic.

    Would I have bought it if it was the same price as the Accord? Sorry to disprove your theory but the answer is yes.

    If you think that people only buy Fusions and Milans because they are cheaper you're mistaken. People who want cheap would be buying Kias.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    In terms of MSRP a loaded V6 Fusion isn't that much off from the V6 Cam/Cord/Alt.

    True, but it is a good bit cheaper to buy than a loaded Camry or Accord V6 which would give us an apples to apples comparison then. ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 5,025
    "good bit cheaper to buy"

    That is exactly my point. If it wasn't cheaper to buy it wouldn't be doing nearly as well, because of it's shortcomings.

    1999 Chevy S10 / 2004 Merc Grand Marquis / 2012 Buick LaCrosse

  • lightfootfllightfootfl Posts: 442
    Why can't we just be not so particular, or fussy about who, how, or what is said?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    It's had a $500 rebate since day one even when supplies were short so I have to believe Ford simply built that into the pricing because some domestic buyers just won't buy without some type of rebate.
    a condition that the 'American' manufacturers have 'taught' the American carbuyer - if they are going to shop those brands, they EXPECT larger rebates (and other incentives) as you say - something that Buick, for example, specializes in - overpricing a car with those 'built-in' rebates. The Camcord shopper, OTH, is doing well to get close to invoice (except possibly on EOY model changes). And then we wonder why those 'Detroit' brands don't hold their resale values that well, so much so that even the steep discounts can't make them cheaper to own than those Camcords they 'compete' with. And part of the reason why Ford/GM/Chrysler are losing money faster than it can be printed? Wouldn't it be nice for those same mfgrs. if they made a car that was good enough and/or in demand (the two kinda go together) enough that MSRP and invoice meant something?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    Small rebates ($1K or less) don't really hurt, especially if they're consistent. What hurts is adding $2K-$3K in rebates later. That reduces the resale values across the board and that is what has happened in the past. It will take years to get the buying public off the rebate wagon. Interestingly Honda and Toyota are increasing rebates on some models (Odyssey and Tundra, not Camcords) and given the reliability records of the 06/07 models so far it sounds like the tables may be slowly turning.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    Why can't we just refrain from saying things that are misleading or incorrect or stating opinions as facts?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    The Camcord shopper, OTH, is doing well to get close to invoice (except possibly on EOY model changes). And then we wonder why those 'Detroit' brands don't hold their resale values that well, so much so that even the steep discounts can't make them cheaper to own than those Camcords they 'compete' with. And part of the reason why Ford/GM/Chrysler are losing money faster than it can be printed? Wouldn't it be nice for those same mfgrs. if they made a car that was good enough and/or in demand (the two kinda go together) enough that MSRP and invoice meant something?

    Actually my fleet safety weekly email had a blurb about how the costs in the rental car industry are skyrocketing because there is no longer the dumping vehicles to fleet sales there has been in the past. Other than a cost increase for rentals, I don't see this adversely affecting the overall market so much.
    They also had a blurb about how GM and Ford residuals percentages increased by double digits in the last year, crediting the Fulan/Edge.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Good post - congrats! Let us know how delivery goes.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    Congratulations! Awesome choice with the 6-speed.

    I didn't even look at these when I bought my Accord in February, because I knew I'd want one! The Accord was also on my short list and since they were all marked $300 under invoice at the local dealer, and the Altimas were brand new and selling for MSRP, the deal made the final choice for me.

    RE: the Milan... you stated: "The 5-speed is pretty smooth to operate, but the car should either have a 6th gear or the gearing revised, because it revs higher than the 2.5S 6-speed at highway velocities, and I'm sure it affects both the NVH and fuel economy."

    When I drove the Fusion 5-speed I never got to highway speeds, what RPM was it running?

    At 80 MPH my Accord is spinning 3,000. I't doesn't bother me because NVH isn't an issue, and my old 626 V6 used to spin 4,000 at the same speed (7k redline).

    What RPM does the Nissan 2.5 6-speed turn in 6th?
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    When I drove the Fusion 5-speed I never got to highway speeds, what RPM was it running?

    Crap, you had to ask me that... :)

    I don't remember exactly (since my wife was driving at the time), but IIRC, I THINK it was 3500 RPM at 75 MPH (give or take).

    What RPM does the Nissan 2.5 6-speed turn in 6th?

    I don't recall this one, but it was quieter than the Milan (in terms of engine noise) at speed. Between that, the 35 MPG rating for highway (compared to 31 for the Milan), and the extra cog, I'll assume that it's lower than the Milan. I could be wrong, but I'll find out for sure when I get the car.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    and why I guy like me is just not going to want to buy one at this point, is long term reliability. When you've owned GM cars for a while, you start to learn that at first, everything seems great. At the time, my Intrigue was sort of the equivalent of what the Aura is today. It beat Camry in a CD comparo back in the day. It was Detroit's great hope. But what gradually drove people away was long term reliability. After a couple of years, things just starting going wrong. And wrong. And wrong. And so on. And now the same thing has started happening to our '04 Malibu Maxx. And the same thing happened to my wife's '00 Alero a few years ago.

    Is the '08 Aura a better car than those were? Well, generationally speaking, I don't know that you can say that. Its hardly groundbreaking considering its competition. But sure, its appealing. At this point, though, I want PROOF that it will hold up for a good 7-8 years. And obviously we won't get that proof for a while.
    So I'd really hesitate to buy it.
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