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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I think BMW has it right with their 230 hp, RWD, perfectly balanced chassis. 230 hp isn't big these days, but in a 328, its sublime.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    a 4-cylinder car, in general, handles better than a nose-heavy V6
    absolutely - and therefore are 'safer' -in that respect, than the V6 - and effectively a tradeoff from a safety perspective - what you gain in handling abilities vs. what you are sacrificing in power.
    a true story - recently 'stuck' behind a little Korean subcompact, both of us attempting to merge off a short entrance ramp onto a busy highway that happens to be move at about 75 all the time. By the time he actually got to the end of the on ramp, he was huffing and puffing all the way up to maybe 45 or 50! The ensuing screeching of 'locked up' brakes and 'panic' lane changes , of course followed as he then 'forced' his merge, all from those 75 mph 'victims' of this certainly underpowered car cutting in front of them. Me, being relatively far behind him (maybe 100 yds.), understanding what he was attempting to do (and what he was attempting to do it in), and anticipating his probable inability to do it, bailed to the road shoulder but I thought I was about to be 'taken out'. What would expect this guy to do? Stop at the end of the ramp! That may be even worse than what he actually did do.
    And then you tell me, that having some extra power is ludricious and not safety related? Now that would be ludricruous! Granted an extreme example and I'll even admit that even a 4 banger from this particular group could at least approach a condition safe merging speed.
    BTW, I drive this ramp every day and left to my own means (and my own 268hp) I can easily hit that 75mph to merge. The Avalon, I drive, a safer car if only because of that 'surplus' of HP! Or maybe we should all drive around in (90hp?) Kias and then blame situations like this on the fact that many drivers largely ignore speed limits or tend to drive at speeds that 'keep up with the flow'? Oops can't do that either, give it enough time and even those Kias can (and do) move well above posted speeds as well!
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    For those of you who think buying a Fusion is a bad bet because Ford is going out of business, you might want to take note: Ford just announced a 2nd quarter profit of $258M NOT including the proceeds from the sale of Aston Martin. That's right - profit, not loss. Revenue was up 6% from last year. And they did it while cutting rental fleet sales. And that doesn't really include the new Taurus/Sable or Focus sales and only a few Escape sales which are setting a record pace.

    It's amazing what can happen when you cut unnecessary costs, build high quality desirable vehicles at sustainable volumes.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    Definitely good news for Ford. This news maynot help dealing with the Union, but regardless, maybe they are on teh right path to profitability. They certainly aren't out of the woods yet.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Ford just announced a 2nd quarter profit of $258M NOT including the proceeds from the sale of Aston Martin. That's right - profit, not loss.

    That's great news. Thanks for posting it, Allen.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Yes, amazing, shock & awe news.
    Time will tell, with foot notes and post scripts to come.

    I would not take the time to read the small print and instead just wait and see how this all plays out. I don't see the stock price doubling today, and big inverstors now have the data at hand.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    The 2.5L I4 is said to be an option in the 2009 Fusion so this might interest some of you.

    TwinForce
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I would not take the time to read the small print and instead just wait and see how this all plays out. I don't see the stock price doubling today, and big inverstors now have the data at hand.

    Seeing that Mulally was quoted as saying that they won't be profitable for the year and still expect that won't happen until 2009, I'd say you're right.

    It's still good news no matter how you spin it and shows that they are doing something right. BTW, Ford's NA market share increased a few tenths too. Being able to reduce fleet sales and increase market share is not an easy thing to do no matter who you are.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    However, a skilled driving manuever to avoid an accident may be to get the "hell out of there!" And to truly do that, you may need to stomp on the gas. You can't 'get the hell out' in an I4 unless its turbocharged. A good quality V6 will get you out of there in a hurry; which is sometimes needed.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    However, a skilled driving maneuver to avoid an accident may be to get the "hell out of there!"

    Agreed, my driving instructor referred to that as "being somewhere else," implying anywhere else is better.

    And to truly do that, you may need to stomp on the gas.

    This was referred to as "changing zip codes" among other things. This is one remedy, although rarely is it the only solution unless its coupled with "red fog" and "no way am I going to let that [experlative] in front of me."

    You can't 'get the hell out' in an I4 unless its turbocharged.

    I totally, completely, and categorically disagree with this statement. A moderate 4 cylinder engine and a responsive transmission (or better still, a manual) will do fine.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "I totally, completely, and categorically disagree with this statement. A moderate 4 cylinder engine and a responsive transmission (or better still, a manual) will do fine."

    AMEN
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    OK... let me add that the car should be under 3,300 lbs, and then the I4 can be quite good...., but still... there isn't that EXTRA oomph you get from say a Honda 3.0 V6 or a 2.0 Turbo from Audi.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    With the caveat that I wouldn't want to be driving a Scion xA with 4 people in it while trying to pass a vehicle on a 2 lane road on an incline. Of course, in that situation, most of the cars would be passing me :P
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    But what about the fact that V6 versions of cars with I4's generally have better/safer suspension setups, bigger/wider tires, and more agressive braking components than the I4 couterpart. Any loss of handling due to front heavy weight of V6 is usually more than compensated for by all of these other factors.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    The 230 HP would be just right if it got significantly better mileage than the 300 HP 330i! Since it gets about the same gas mileage, I'd opt for the extra 70 horses.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    a lot of times people merge too slowly onto a fast moving freeway thereby causing a traffic jam/slowdown/chain reaction of problems not only because their vehicle is underpowered, but mainly because they are idiotic, crazy, uninformed, and stubbborn. They simply refuse to waste the little bit of extra gas useage in order to accelerate at a reasonable rate so that they can merge safely. They are either too cheap or too dumb and instead choose to merge onto a 75-85 MPH flow of traffic at 45 MPH!!!! They choose saving a few drops of gas over safety and probably cause another 1,000 drivers 1000X more gas wastage due to traffic jams than they would have wasted themselves.

    Anyway, enough of my rant. If you have a 300 HP car then you should be able to merge at full speed even at 1/4 throttle. If you have 200 HP then you should be able to merge at full speed even on a short ramp at 1/2 throttle acceleration.

    If you have 100 HP then floor the damn thing! That will help! :cry:
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    The 230 HP would be just right if it got significantly better mileage than the 300 HP 330i! Since it gets about the same gas mileage, I'd opt for the extra 70 horses.

    What 300 hp car gets good gas mileage?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    The BMW 335i, sorry, I said 330, but meant 335.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I drive a 130 hp 1996 Accord with an automatic to work everyday. On my way home is a moderately long but steep uphill onramp onto I-65. Traffic generally flows around 70 MPH. If I accelerated modestly (making the 4-speed auto shift at around 3,200 RPM, say) I would barely be at 50-55 MPH by the end of the ramp. Instead, I use more of the car's available power (130 hp comes at 5200 RPM), wind up to just above 4,000 RPM, and manage to be going at least 65 MPH when my chance to merge comes in).
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,327
    Pssshhhh, everyone knows that Honda I4's are exceptional and out perform the "numbers" ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Weeeellllll, 130 horsepower isn't particularly fast in a 2900 lb car, saddled with a 4-speed automatic. I love the car, but not for its speed.

    You can jam the throttle to the carpet from a stop, and get nary a chirp from the tires. I'll just pretend it is AWD or something.

    Interestingly, when I was a couple of years younger (and the car was too) I had a chance to run 0-60 in a flat, broad area. It took just over 10 seconds, and that's with ~150k miles on the clock.

    On the other hand, my 2006 Accord (5AT, 166 hp) does the same between 8 and 9 seconds).

    *By the way, I never brake-torque the engine (it seems really bad for it). I just hit the gas from a stop.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Assuming we a talking about newish midsize sedans, merging too slowly is not about the car, it is all about the driver. The vast majority seem to think their car will break or something if it goes over 3000 rpms.

    I believe all of these new midsize cars, in 4 cyl form, can get to 60 in under 10 seconds...I think that is plenty of acceleration capability for accomplishing this task.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    The 335 is a turbo, cost $9K more, gets way less MPGs (who cares tho! - its a 335!) and your insurance premium doubles vs. the 328. If I wanted a race car I'd get a Mustang and save a bunch of money. High HP is one of the things you use the least in 95% of your drives. 230 in a RWD setup is perfect.

    The 328 is a mid size sedan - right? One of the best out there for the money. Fantastic leases.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The 328 is a mid size sedan - right?

    It's compact at best. $35k for a compact is high for me (space is crucial for me, I'm 6'4" and a big guy!)

    The 5-series is midsize.

    The 7-series is full size.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    "You can't 'get the hell out' in an I4 unless its turbocharged."

    Did anyone watch the video I posted on CarSpace of my Accord running from 5 to 80 mph? 60 comes in well under 8 seconds and 80 in about 10. Before the acceleration ramp even ends, I overtake an Expedition that had a big lead on me before I took off. I think that is well above the acceleration capability of the average vehicle on the road.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Did anyone watch the video I posted on CarSpace of my Accord running from 5 to 80 mph?

    Yes, I saw the video, but I would rather not have to punch it as soon as I back out of my parking spot. With the V6 you can wait until you get halfway down the ramp, and pick a spot to blend into the traffic without anyone having to slow down for you.

    Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against 4 cylinder Accords. My 92 Accord (140hp) was plenty fast enough for me for 12 years. It's just so much easier, and takes less advanced planning, with the 6 cylinder's highway acceleration.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Just to clarify:

    - The 335 is a turbo yes, cost $9K more no
    - gets way less MPGs (who cares tho! - its a 335!) probably 34 highway after being broken in, my 330 got 34 mpg at 65
    - and your insurance premium doubles vs. the 328 not even close.

    If I wanted a race car I'd get a Mustang and save a bunch of money okay, but these cars aren't even in the same league.

    High HP is one of the things you use the least in 95% of your drives. 230 in a RWD setup is perfect. disagree, my turbo 4 gets floored quite a bit when merging
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    disagree, my turbo 4 gets floored quite a bit when merging

    Wow, your driveway must be directly on I-40 or something. I have 130 hp Accord, drive into an urban setting with 70+ mph traffic daily, and have several mountains around.

    I can't tell ya the last time I had to floor it. And it's a 4-speed auto.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    You can rationalize anything if you try hard enough.

    There is no way you can justify needing more than a good modern 4 cylinder engine. Just admit that it's a want and move on.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I never needed a 6cylinder before, and I don't need one now. But it is more fun fun fun with it, and I don't want to go back. Of course, for someone who would never use the extra power anyway, it would be a complete waste of $$$.
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