Midsize Sedans 2.0

captain2

as I said earlier somebody is looking west for the sun to rise - unless that $6800.00 off Accord had something like those $8000.00 wheels on it that's when you buy a $25k Honda for $18k. And yes, of course, Honda dealers are allowed to sell their cars for whatever they want to (above and below sticker)- that's exactly what Honda hdqtrs in Calif will tell you as well but whether you choose to believe it or not, they don't - without the general knowledge (and agreement) of not only Honda but also 'competing' dealers in the area. People seem to regard price paid for any car with a great deal of ego getting in the way, believe what you will, but I strongly suggest you really try to find that $18k ($25k sticker) Accord yourself first. Invoice on that car, is right at $22.5k - even a demo or a car that hasn't sold for awhile because it has some strange option combos or colors etc. AND is last years model will not drive off a Honda (or Toyota) lot for anything aproaching $18k. Make it a Mazda/Ford or Hyundai lot, maybe - those cars have the resale values that testify to such shenanigans.

lilengineerboy

Mine has no dealer add ons except for the mask, mud guards and trunk mat. It didn't even require haggling, just the Edmunds.com vehicle quote thing. Of course the Accord was only 4k off not 6k.

aviboy97

Make it a Mazda/Ford or Hyundai lot, maybe - those cars have the resale values that testify to such shenanigans.

One cannot generalize an entire vehicle line to resale value. While the Mazda6 may have a lower resale value of an Accord, they are also less to begin with. The Accord does hold a slight resale advantage. A Mazda3 has virtually the same real world resale value of a Honda Civic. The Mazda MX-5 has a wicked high resale value, while say, the S2000 loses value quite quickly. Yes, the S2K is more of a car, but, is heavly discounted, and loses a lot of value in it's first two years. The CR-V holds it's value better then a Tribute, because the Tribute is a rebadged Escape.

In my opinion, Toyota's have a high book value, are are over rated. Yes, they are reliable. No question about it. However, interior materials recently seem to be low grade, with a low rent feel to them. Buttons and controls through out the line seem to have not changed since I owned my 1991 Celica. Actually, my Celica had better interior materials then the current Camry. Once again, this is my observation, and my opinion.

captain2

That is such BS. Honda and Toyota have no say in how any dealer franchise sells their vehicles.
the 'say' that they have is called allotments and also that cooperation between dealers when they trade off inventory to get you, me or anybody else exactly the car we want.
That 'BS', my friend, is how the car business really works and it is not like the dealer actually makes any real money selling you that new car in the first place even inclusive of holdbacks, mfgr volume/financing incentives, etc.- it takes a service dept and a used car lot to do that

imidazol97

> no dealer add ons except for the mask, mud guards and trunk mat

How much were the mask, mud guards, and trunk mat?

akirby

That 'BS', my friend, is how the car business really works and it is not like the dealer actually makes any real money selling you that new car in the first place even inclusive of holdbacks, mfgr volume/financing incentives, etc.- it takes a service dept and a used car lot to do that

Unless you've owned a dealership I don't think you're qualified to make those statements.

captain2

only about my closest friend who happens to own Ford, Nissan and Toyota franchises - all in the same area - (which are very hard to get BTW), and yes he is doing much better since he got the Ford portion of his complex open - loves the 'fix or repair daily' income ggenerated by that service dept.

aviboy97

the 'say' that they have is called allotments and also that cooperation between dealers when they trade off inventory to get you, me or anybody else exactly the car we want.

Mfg's have an allocation method based on your location, average sales, whether the dealer is exclusive or not. There are many factors that determine allocation, and every mfg is different. However, it is highly unusual that if a dealer sells a vehicle under invoice, it will affect future allocations.

That 'BS', my friend, is how the car business really works and it is not like the dealer actually makes any real money selling you that new car in the first place even inclusive of holdbacks, mfgr volume/financing incentives, etc.- it takes a service dept and a used car lot to do that

More so service as the gravy, but there is money to be made in the sales end. Used cars are gravy as well, not to mention the finance department too. Holdback is not profit.

BTW, I am a dealer, I know how the business works

aviboy97

loves the 'fix or repair daily' income ggenerated by that service dept.

Our Ford franchise is the same. My friends Honda dealer is also butter is the service dept.

captain2

actually a transparent' attempt (lame?) on my part to get akirby's (our resident FoMoCo shill) dander up.
The real reason why the guy wanted so badly to get his Ford dealership up can be spelled F150 and is obviously a function of volume.

pat

C'mon, the purpose of this discussion is not to irritate others. Please knock it off.

captain2

However, it is highly unusual that if a dealer sells a vehicle under invoice, it will affect future allocations.
didn't exactly say that did I? What I did say was that any dealer that continually undersells what any vehicle's market price is doing neither himself, his competing dealers (in effect, his family), existing owners or the mfgr. any kind of service. A company like Honda understands this as well, and values the history of high resale values that Hondas have traditionally enjoyed and the fact that this, as well, is part of the attraction of the product in the first place. What better way to 'penalize' that offending dealer than to limit his selection of cars coming out of the factory and/or for those other Honda dealers to refuse his request for inventory trade outs when the need arises. And I think you would understand all this if you really are a dealer (wink-wink).
Things like this is common practice even outside the auto business, talk to somebody you know that sells Sony products, and other mfgrs. that don't even like to see their own products advertised at discounted pricing - for example.

zzzoom6

And saving $6k+ off MSRP is nice too
sure is - but did you really 'save" anything close to your $6k, when you find out that it is worth about that much less a few years down the road. I know, everybody who will justify overly discounted prices with a claim that they will be hanging on to this one until the wheels fall off...

That may or may not be true... my early research on Kelly Blue Book indicated that the resale value of my Mazda6 after a bit more than a year was very high. But I didn't buy a car as an investment so much as a means to an end. Of course I need a car for work and getting things done, but I also wanted something fun and expressive. After test driving many cars in this class, I know I bought the elite in handling and braking which are qualities that make the Mazda6 fun and safe to me. And knowing that I am a bit more self sufficient since I can put a 42" plasma, coffee table, lawn mower or high-backed queen bedframe in the back of my car instead of calling for help is worth quite a bit. Who knows, maybe in the future, people will value the utility of hatchbacks more and make my car worth more. Or maybe it's timeless good looks will attract buyers that will let it's resale value remain very solid as it was when I checked Kelly Blue Book a few months ago... But even if it turns out to be not as good as it's peers on this aspect, my Mazda6 will retain a high level of value to me and that is far more important since whatever car I buy, I'll be taking a bath when I sell it several years down the road.

captain2

the Mazda6 resale values figure to plummet as soon as they start being purchased at $6k off. The same would apply to the Accord, if the same thing is happening. Resale is directly related to cost new, obviously, and more so in those first few years of any car's useful life - and anything that loses value every year you own it never figures to be an 'investment'. The 6 seemed to take a rather sudden turn downward in terms of market pricing recently - selling originally at something about invoice and later getting discounted/rebated well below that. Don't know if this was due to FoMoCos influences (they certainly need all the cash they can get) or simply the case of a slow selling model and supply outrunning demand.

captain2

PS - truly getting KBB trade in value on anything is a novel concept (unless you allow them to 'adjust' your purchase price), especially on something like a 6. Try it, suggest you won't the numbers even be close, giving you the more reason to hang to the one got.

lilengineerboy

the Mazda6 resale values figure to plummet as soon as they start being purchased at $6k off. The same would apply to the Accord, if the same thing is happening. Resale is directly related to cost new, obviously, and more so in those first few years of any car's useful life - and anything that loses value every year you own it never figures to be an 'investment'.

I don't think that is true. The 2002 Civic SIs were dogs from a sales standpoint (my friend bought a new one in Nov of '03) and he got very close to what he paid for it when he sold it to get a MazdaSpeed6. Blips in marketing don't seem to affect long term retail pricing. Long term fire-sales of non-competitive vehicles is different, but that is not the case with the Mazda in question, either.

captain2

following that logic then one could buy a new Mazda6 that has a MSRP of let's say $26k for $20k, drive it for a few thousand miles and sell it for something more than what you paid for it. Ain't gonna happen simply because somebody out there is gonna know what the new one actually sells for. Whether what has happened to the 6s pricing is 'a long term fire sale' - now that I think is debatable, there have been some steep discounts available on that particular car for some time now, establishing a bad precedent for those buyers of a new redesigned model, who would logically have to pay about $24k for that same car. Such a thing that Hyundai faces with its pretty decent Sonata, and may continue to face until it stops offering the same sort of 'discount' structure'. Beware of big discounts as a general rule they are indicative of specific models that nobody wants (for whatever reason), poor resale values AND will also only tend to represent that amount of savings in the unlikely event that the car in question is kept for an abnormally long time.

robertsmx

If your claims on prices you paid is true, you couldn't be luckier for getting a car that holds resale better than any other in its class. Perhaps you should sell it and make a few bucks. That doesn't happen with "new cars".

lilengineerboy

following that logic then one could buy a new Mazda6 that has a MSRP of let's say $26k for $20k, drive it for a few thousand miles and sell it for something more than what you paid for it. Ain't gonna happen simply because somebody out there is gonna know what the new one actually sells for.

Actually that seems to be what happened with the MazdaSpeed6, people are asking more for them then some of them sold for originally. Similarly with the '02 Honda Civic SI.

lilengineerboy

If your claims on prices you paid is true, you couldn't be luckier for getting a car that holds resale better than any other in its class. Perhaps you should sell it and make a few bucks. That doesn't happen with "new cars".

You know, the more people tell me stuff like that, the more I feel better about the purchase, but hopefully what you mention will hold true and I can sell/trade it for something more fun sooner rather than later.

robertsmx

Instead of complaining, do it now! You can't wait, could you?

lilengineerboy

Instead of complaining, do it now! You can't wait, could you?

I figure I have to wait at least a year. Its a perfectly fine car, I just don't care for the driving experience. I am picky, I would consider myself an automotive enthusiast, and I don't represent the general market. I am happy that it sounds like I won't take too much of a financial hit from my mis-step.
If my wife didn't like her car as much as she does, I could just give it to her.
I think I would like the car a lot with better shocks/springs/tires/wheels, but that comes out to $3-4k that will actually hurt the re-sale value of the car, so I will leave it as is and try again in a year or so.
In the meantime, it got 33 mpg on the last tank.

captain2

the MazdaSpeed6, people are asking more for them then some of them sold for originally.
I'm with Robert why should I have to work for a living when really all I have to do is buy and sell used Mazdas! You make life so simple, buy Mazdas, make money and drive a different car every week. Actually, TMBK the only 'mass produced' car that this kind of thing has even come close to happening to in recent history - with was the Prius back when there was a 6 month waiting list to get one.

lilengineerboy

Honestly not trying to pump up Mazda, but how about the Miata when it first came out? Or the S2000? Or anything that had a "Dealer Market Adjustment Sticker" that people actually paid?

zzzoom6

PS - truly getting KBB trade in value on anything is a novel concept (unless you allow them to 'adjust' your purchase price), especially on something like a 6. Try it, suggest you won't the numbers even be close, giving you the more reason to hang to the one got.

I did try it actually, and got KBB's price when I sold my Subaru. Yeah, ok KBB is only a guide and market conditions will vary from one place to another and from one buyer or seller to another. But it is the best guide we have which is why you'll find a Kelly Blue Book in every bank and car lot. But for me to trust you over KBB is asking a lot since I think KBB would know this part of the business better than most people.

But again, if you read what I wrote, I like my car and it has a lot of value to me as is. It drives very well and can transport things that most other cars in this class could not. Plus I think it looks better. No matter what car you buy in this class, if you buy new and sell it several years later, you're gonna lose a ton of money. So, may as well buy something you like and can use to its fullest and I find the Mazda6 fits my needs and wants better than any other car in this class, so that's what's important to me.

aviboy97

I think KBB would know this part of the business better than most people.

I would disagree. KBB is not in the car business. They do not buy, or sell cars. KBB is a publisher. They make money offering you free estimates on vehicles by having sponsors on their site. What reputable company do that?

KBB is rather a slim guide line to follow. I have never sold a vehicle for what KBB says it's worth. There is also no "send check" button to click once you got an appraisal on your vehicle.

captain2

while I agree with your comments on the accuracy of their numbersw (in general) in their defense how on earth could KBB or NADA (or anybody) anticipate that the market for 6s would get so bad that $6k discounts would have to be offered and those resale values would necessarily decrease by a similar amount?

ccostable

Are custom fabric/vinyl roofs coming back? Today I saw a greyhaired lady driving an Azera with one. An Azera. Not a Caddy or a Lincoln. An Azera. Last week I saw a Milan with one.

louiswei

Are you in Florida? If that's the case then I am not surprised. During my 1-year stay in Melbourne, FL I saw at least one Camry (or Avalon) with vinyl roof every single day.

If I am Toyota, I'll hunt down the dealer who does this and burn its franchise agreement on the spot.

aviboy97

how on earth could KBB or NADA (or anybody) anticipate that the market for 6s would get so bad that $6k discounts would have to be offered and those resale values would necessarily decrease by a similar amount?

Other then that one Texas dealer you told me about, I have not seen $6K in discounts. I am a Mazda dealer, and I would be losing major money if I sold them at discounts like that. Maybe that dealer has some spectacular payment plan, but, that is definitely not the norm. One dealer out of 800 does not set the value of the Mazda6 line as a whole.

If you take a 2007 Mazda6 i Sport Value Edition, it has roughly a $1,300 mark up. Selling one at invoice plus the just introduced rebate of $2000, that is a $3,300 discount. I have yet to go below invoice, but, if I did, we are talking a couple hundred, not $2,700.

I recently put in an internet request to a local Honda dealer about a 2007 Honda Accord, and this was the response I got, with NO negotiating. "2007 Honda Accord SE sdn MSRP $22,370 our special internet price is $19,990. 2007 Honda Accord LX MSRP $21,670 our special internet price is $19,290" We are talking about discounts at around $2,400. Not too far off from what the Mazda6's are selling for around my area.

Are there people out there that are going to get better then $3,300 off MSRP on a Mazda6? Probably. Are there people that are going to get more then $2,400 off MSRP on an Accord? Probably, infact, I believe lilengineerboy got his for way more off then that.

I know that real publications that offer real world values to pre-owned vehicle, such as Galves and Black Book, set their values at what one can expect to get for the vehicle if you were to purchase or sell it at an auction. Since Honda has built a great reputation for dependability and reliability, their 4 cyl products tend to hold value longer then most brands. I have noticed their V6 models take bigger hits in value, rightfully so due to the recent problems with them. Also, I do believe mfgr incentives have a say in the auction value in the most recent year, not actually what dealers sell them for. It is well known that the biggest depreciation is applied in the first two years. Anyone who wants to trade out during that time frame will get killed, no matter what you drive.

From what I have seen, most people trade out of vehicles when mileage goes over 70K. At that point, many Japanese brands have values so close to one another, and the difference is minimal. There will be a bigger difference in value, for example, a 2002 Mazda/Nissan vs 2002 American equal then between a 2002 Honda/Toyota and 2002 Mazda/Nissan.

andres3

My 2003 Accord V6 Coupe sold for 53% of its out the door cost of when I bought it. This was 50 months and 65,000 miles later. It works out to a cost of $235/month. Not too shabby.

joe97

I see quite a bit in the North. And, quite a few were Milans - both to my surprises.

zzzoom6

KBB is not in the car business. They do not buy, or sell cars. KBB is a publisher. They make money offering you free estimates on vehicles by having sponsors on their site. What reputable company do that?

You're in the car business so I'm sure you know more about how accurate KBB is... I'm sure KBB is just a guide, kind of like the weatherman. Thing is, even though the weatherman is often wrong, I still listen cuz it's better info than what I could usually come up with on my own.

How long has KBB been around anyway? I'm sure they were around before the internet was big... long enough to have a decent level of credibility anyway. If they were a total joke and just randomly fixed values to cars who would go to their site? Nobody, which would mean zero ad revenue.

Now I'm not saying KBB is totally accurate... I'm sure there are many instances where it's a bit off. But I don't think they randomly choose numbers either. So they are a referrence point that many people use when buying or selling a car... As an individual who is not in the car business, how would I ever know what a car is worth were it not for resources like KBB? Am I to go to the nearest car lot and trust what they tell me? Or should I ask captain2 since he seems to know exactly how much I could sell my car for?

robertsmx

Leave it to Honda to show us how to do more with less

"Make no mistake: the Honda Accord is a terrific automobile no matter how it comes, but it also compels us to consider something we don’t think about too often: at what point does horsepower become truly superfluous? Especially as fuel efficiency and low emissions, both longstanding hallmarks of the Honda brand, become more important than ever before, we are looking for cars that are both fun to drive and easy on the earth.

We just found one."

thegraduate

In fact, with a starting price of $20,995, the Accord is the least expensive full-size automobile available today. We’re sure that’s no accident, as size matters in America as it does in no other country in the world.

I think they left out the $17k Sonata...dummies!

baggs32

I think they left out the $17k Sonata...dummies!

Is the Sonata officially full-size though? The Accord sedan (coupe is shorter) just hit the magic number to be classified as such but IIRC the sonata is a couple of inches shorter which keeps it in mid-sized land. No?

If I were shopping for a full-sizer, the Accord would be at the bottom of my list. Have you ever seen the room inside the cabins and trunks of the Accord's competitors, Taurus and Avalon? They rival some living rooms I've been in. :P

mz6greyghost

Is the Sonata officially full-size though?

From all the sources I've seen, yes.

colloquor

I've been a subscriber to most auto enthusiast magazines for over 30 years, 40 in the case of Road & Track. My profession is magazine publishing, not on the editorial side of the ledger, but the business side (display advertising). Although ideally there is supposed to be a definitive line of demarcation between editorial and advertising in the print media business, the reality is more pragmatic - advertising, and the amount a company places in a magazine, does certainly impact editorial.

If Honda, or Hyundai, Toyota, etc., would pull its display advertising from C&D, it would be interesting to see what they would have to say about any, or all, of their vehicles.

Given my experience, I would not take anything written in advertising-supported print media as gospel. FWIW, news stand and subscription sales of major monthly consumer magazines pay for the only the fixed cost administrative and production expenses. Without display advertising revenue, the magazine(s) would cease publication.

kdshapiro

Bingo. While we sit here discussing models and proclaim one is "better" than the other, there are a bunch of numbers known as sales figures that really tell the story.

For example, it is said the Sonota is a "better value" than the Accord, but when will America wake up and realize this?

joe97

Is the Sonata officially full-size though?

EPA certified since 2005:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=24057

jeffyscott

Are there people out there that are going to get better then $3,300 off MSRP on a Mazda6? Probably.

I am one who did, I got about $5000 off on a sport value automatic (this included a $2000 rebate) back in Jan. If like me, one is able to get a better than average discount on a car this reduces the depreciation.

I paid $16,124 (after adding back in document fee) for a car where the average deal is perhaps more like $18,000??? If the average depreciation is 1/3 in the first two years, the car would then be worth $12,000. This would mean my depreciation would be around 25%. Also my loss of value would be "only" about $4000 vs. the typical $6000. Not that I plan to sell anytime in the next decade, anyway .

The particular deal one gets can have more impact on one's personal depreciation than whatever the average depreciation figures show. I am pretty sure I will lose less to depreciation on my Mazda6, than I would have had I gotten an average deal on an Accord...of course a lilengineerboy discount on an Accord would be a different matter.

jeffyscott

So are we now accepting EPA's decree on the size class of cars? If so, Pontiac G6, Accord coupe, and Subaru Legacy are compact not midsize.

joe97

It's always been EPA. We are talking about dimensions - usable space (size class), not market class.

jeffyscott

:confuse:

EPA size class is compact for the cars I listed.

akirby

Better value generally only translates to sales leader for commodity items. Car buyers never buy on price alone. Well, almost never - I did know ONE guy that did many years ago.

Even value minded car buyers have subjective preferences for styling, features and performance.

joe97

And?

The C/D article had the Accord as a full-sizer, according to EPA. thegraduate and I pointed out the Sonata is also classified as full-size per EPA.

jeffyscott

And...who cares what EPA "size class" is. It is a silly way to classify cars. The only purpose of that is to decide which vehicles are included on the mpg sticker for comparison.

Maybe my point about the cars classified as "compact" was too subtle or do you argree with EPA that the those vehicles are compacts? Does the Legacy compete with the Accord (sedan) or the Civic...or maybe neither...or maybe only with the Accord Sedan sans sunroof? How about the G6...does it compete with the midsize (and kinda similar ) malibu or the compact Cobalt?

robertsmx

I've heard that one before. So, what did you disagree with in that test drive? Other than two errors I noted. One, Accord V6's pre-PZEV rating was 273 HP which they have stuck with, PZEV version is 268 HP). And two, they forgot Sonata is another full size car. But perhaps because, Sonata is a forgettable car? :P

J/k. I appreciate its qualities, and I'm sure it works well for a lot of folks. But it doesn't appeal to me. And I think C&D is one of the rare automotive source that actually knows a thing or two about cars, or it might be because I too see some of the things that they note in their tests. Must be in the driving style.

lilengineerboy

Maybe my point about the cars classified as "compact" was too subtle or do you argree with EPA that the those vehicles are compacts? Does the Legacy compete with the Accord (sedan) or the Civic...or maybe neither...or maybe only with the Accord Sedan sans sunroof? How about the G6...does it compete with the midsize (and kinda similar ) malibu or the compact Cobalt?

Actually, that raises a good point. The new Accord to me seems like the Avalon and Maxima, so I do consider them in another class. The old Accord (03-07) is noticeably bigger than the Legacy of the same time frame, but they might be close enough to be in the same category. How big is the Passat, that car seems huge to me as well. The G6 always seemed snugger than the Malibu, so maybe that difference is big enough to make the G6 compete with the Cobalt or maybe not. That doesn't mean the car doesn't have a place even if its closer to a smaller car. My Contour wasn't much bigger than an Escort but I liked it a lot more.

robertsmx

Car buyers never buy on price alone.

I start with an upper limit on price, and get the car that offers me the best combination of everything I care for. So, I don't take price out of the picture, in fact it is the starting point to consider a bunch of options out there. I'm not one to compare a Mercedes E55 AMG to a mainstream family sedan. Price alone determines that. Next are the attributes of the car, again, within a price range.