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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • caazcaaz Posts: 203
    I bought my daughter a 328i for her 16th B-day. he's now 19. We've done the brakes once and oil changes, no other repairs. I paid 8300.00 and could prob still sell it for 6500.00... Its a very very minst 96 328i....still looks new...

    #2 My 2nd daughter recieved a Mustang GT for her 16th...I found a mint 01 with about 80 k miles. She's had it 1 full yr now.....No problems...oil changes only...So it really depends what the condition the car is when you buy it...and how good yopu are at negotiationg
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    a 6 yr old civiv will still cost you almost 7 grand.

    No way would I pay $7,000 for a 6-year-old Civic, a 2001 model.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "There's no difference between most car brands."

    Other than the fact the Dodge just issued a recall involving Nitros. In my mind there is a difference, and maybe a lot of people also see, hear and feel the difference.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    And there's no way I'd pay $1 for a brand new Dodge, let alone a used one!

    But let's get back to the topic of midsize cars, which the Civic, nor the Neon is.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    There are very few posts regarding the topical vehicles here in the last 24 hours or so. I think all of you remember that the other midsize sedans discussion was shut down because too many people could not stay on topic. It looks to me like we're headed down the same road again.

    I have no plans for a Midsize Sedans 3.0. Any of you who would like this discussion to continue need to be mindful of the subject when you are preparing to post.

    If you have comments you'd like to make about some subject that doesn't belong here, the search features on the left should help you. And either Kirstie or I or any host would be happy to help you find an appropriate discussion, just drop any of us an email.

    But here we are talking about midsize sedans. Period. You are putting your posting privileges at risk by continuing to ignore that. And if too many of you continue to ignore that, you are clearly saying this topic has run its course.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    I don't think Hyundai Sonata's problem is history or reputation. I think their problem is style and substance. They are a bargain basement value vehicle option, plain and simple. They might offer good bang for the buck, but they aren't making the best cars out there in any segment by any stretch of the imagination. Best gas mileage, nope. Best power, nope. Best interior, nope. Best price, yes.

    Any facts to the contrary need sources and explanations, I never heard of the Sonata having class leading mileage.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    Seven years ago I might have gone the used Accord route also. But now it's 2007 and the mid-sized sedan market is much different, with many fine choices. For example, when I was at the Mazda dealer the other day having my van serviced, I noticed that the no-haggle price on a 2007 Mazda6i Special Value Edition (17" alloys, sport package, CD changer, power seat etc.) was about $16k. Great looking car, great driving car, brand new, full factory warranty, free oil changes for life (from this dealer). I've seen Milans and Fusions advertised at $15k recently, and Sonatas under $14k. So nowadays I'd tend to go the new car route if I had $15-16k to spend on a car, unless I needed something above the mid-sized sedan class e.g. a minivan (which btw I bought used as a 2002 last year for only $12.5k with a 100k bumper-to-bumper zero-deductible warranty, MSRP was twice that, and the interior looked like the van had never been driven).
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Great looking car, great driving car, brand new, full factory warranty,

    It should be noted that Mazda slashed their "full factory warranty" term by 25% in both mileage and years for 2007.

    So with cheaper prices comes "we don't stand behind our product anymore."

    The dealer's explanation at the Mazda in Southern California was not holding water for me, he said "If Honda and Toyota can do it, why can't Mazda?"

    LOL, I can think of a lot of red circle reasons. I'm not saying Mazda doesn't make good vehicles, but I don't think they are at Honda/Toyota league levels. If I was considering a Mazda6, I'd want the longer warranty.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    I am having this feeling of deja vu, all over again. :confuse:

    Here is the link noting the Sonata being #1 in fuel economy in its EPA class:

    Also, the Sonata leads the mid-sized class in interior room. Note on the following page, none of the other cars are in the mid-sized class (EPA classes are by interior volume, meaning Accord, Camry, and all the rest of the cars we are discussing here have less interior volume than the Sonata):

    Also, the Sonata has more standard safety equipment than any other car in the mid-sized class we are discussing here. It's the only car from this discussion with standard ABS, ESC, side airbags and curtains, four-wheel disc brakes, and active front head restraints standard on all trim lines.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    If you are looking for a long warranty in the mid-sized class, check out the Galant, Optima, or Sonata--all have a 5/60k bumper-to-bumper warranty and 10/100k powertrain warranty.

    I guess you could also say that, with the higher prices of Accords and Camrys comes "we don't stand behind our products", given their relatively short warranties.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325

    Also, the Sonata leads the mid-sized class in interior room. Note on the following page, none of the other cars are in the mid-sized class (EPA classes are by interior volume, meaning Accord, Camry, and all the rest of the cars we are discussing here have less interior volume than the Sonata):

    The problem with your link and argument is that it is plainly and truly false. The EPA has a weird "rental car-like company" way of classifying cars. Most people wouldn't buy that the Sonata is a "full size car" as listed by the EPA. It is a midsize car and hence one of the cars in this discussion.

    Furthermore, ANY midsizer would have the best gas mileage in the large SUV category, so that goes to show you how missclassification can make the Sonata seem better than it is in fuel economy. The truth is, that midsize sedans (which are the topic of this forum) are lead by Toyota and Nissan on the website link you provided. Lastly, the 4 cylinder Accord gets 10-15% better mileage than the Sonata, both in city and highway.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    I don't think Hyundai Sonata's problem is history or reputation. I think their problem is style and substance. They are a bargain basement value vehicle option, plain and simple.

    I have no complaints to air about the Sonata and actually own a Fusion -- are there any other Fusion (Milan) owners on this thread? -- but the Sonata's MSRP doesn't seem all that much of a "bargain basement" price. Am I missing something?

    What does a well-equipped, top-of-the-line V6 Accord or V6 Camry go for these days? $30,000? Aren't the 4-cylinder base models of the Fusion (Milan), Altima, Legacy, Accord, Camry, Aura, et al all within a thousand dollars of each other?

    By the way, GM's having an Accord and Camry on the Aura's showroom floor is a very gutsy move. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. It's taking Ford's "Challenge" one step higher.

    No market segment has keener competition than the mid-size one. High stakes poker at work here. I am noticing a significant increase in the number of Honda ads here lately, mostly for the Accord.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    Yes, Honda and Toyota were forced to increase their powertrain warranties from a paltry 3 years/36k miles to 5 years/60k miles to get closer to what the competition is offering. If the Accord and Camry are better built than the competition, and as rock-solid reliable as you claim, then increasing the powertrain warranty (even the bumper-to-bumper warranty) would cost Honda and Toyota nothing, but would reap benefits in having the best-backed cars in the mid-sized class. Imagine an Accord with a 10-year, 150,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty and a 20-year, 300,000 mile powertrain warranty--transferrable of course. Toyota could do the same with the Camry. What great selling tools! Honda and Toyota could even get away with eliminating incentives on the Accord and Camry, maybe even raise prices some, because of the value of these long warranties. At no extra cost to Honda and Toyota. Why do you suppose they haven't taken this easy step to demonstrate in a big way that they have a huge lead on their competition in reliability, while increasing their profits on the Accord and Camry (and their other vehicles)?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    You know, it's hard to have a discussion with someone who asks for links to back up an assertion, then when the links are provided they simply say, "it is plainly and truly false."

    I don't see what is false about the fact that the Sonata leads its EPA class in fuel economy. It is a fact, plain and simple. Sonata has the room of a large car. That is the EPA class it is in. It has more interior room than any other car we are discussing here. That advantage allows the Sonata to grab the #1 spot in fuel economy for large cars. Large-car interior room for a mid-sized price--and a low mid-sized price at that. More demonstration of the Sonata's value, wouldn't you say?
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668

    I suspect your tongue was firmly implanted in your cheek when you wrote that. Either that or a touch of sarcasm. But I like the idea. Heck, I'd trade in our new Fusion for an Accord with a deal like that. LOL. Who wouldn't?
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    and considering honda will replace or repair any part of the car, free of charge, regardless of milage make even more sense. If they're going to pay the expense anyhow, why deny the advertising.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    Exactly! Accord and Camry would leave all others in the dust with a warranty program like that. At least until the other automakers respond in some way.

    Ow! I bit my toungue!! :cry:
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Honda Accord's and Toyota Camry's don't have to do anything with their warranties because why fix what ain't broke?

    The are already the leading sellers in this midsize market. The Accord's fuel numbers were 24/34 last I checked in the 4 cylinder. What are the Sonata's?

    Are you saying your linked website is infallible? Just because it is written doesn't mean it is so.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    If my last Accord would have had a 100k mile warranty, it would have saved me the cost of one temperature control knob. I am halfway to 100k miles on my present Accord, and don't think a 100k mile warranty would do any more for me than the last one would have. The warranty on my Accord has little meaning to me.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    Good thing the warranty has little meaning to you, because the bumper-to-bumper warranty expired some 14,000 miles ago and you have only about 10k miles left on the powertrain warranty.

    A warranty is an insurance policy. It's appreciated in two ways: 1) peace of mind it provides, and 2) when something breaks. I would have loved to have had a longer warranty when the A/C condenser went out on my Civic shortly after the warranty expired--cost me $900 to fix. A friend of mine just replaced the failed tranny in his Odyssey at about 95k miles. Fortunately, he had invested in an extended warranty up to 100k miles, so he didn't have to pay nearly $3000 out of pocket. You can bet HE appreciated the extra warranty coverage.

    The fact is, both Honda and Toyota know their cars break, so extending the warranties on the Accord and Camry would cost them big bucks. So they don't do it.
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