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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Funny you should mention low prices on Accords. The Honda dealerships in my town seem to have an unwritten (since written would be against the law) agreement not to publish purchase prices, just lease prices. And the lease deal on the Accord LX right now is worse than it was earlier in the year: still $199/month but nearly $3000 up front. The up-front money is much higher than it was earlier this year. In fact, earlier in the year the deal was $199/mo. for a V6! That seems odd to be given Honda must be trying to close out the Accords before the new models roll in.

    Personally I like the size of the current Mazda6 and don't like the trend of making mid-sized cars larger (on the outside). The new Accord is 194" for gosh sakes! That's about 6" less than the huge Grand Caravan I had. And it was a cumbersome beast to park. Other automakers seem to be able to fit mid-sized space (even large-car space) into a smaller package. Maybe Honda should add a large sedan ala Avalon to its lineup so it can let the Accord play the role of mid-sized family sedan and keep it a decent size.
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    The Azera is 192.7, Avalon 197.2, and Amanti 196.9 inches long. If this keeps up, the Accord will be clearly in the next size up. Not good for those that like mid-sized cars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    But good for those who are looking for a bigger Honda sedan.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Length of a car does not exactly measure usable space - interior volume, trunk space. The perfect example is, despite the Azera being shorter than the Avalon, the interior volume and trunk space is the same between the two.

    On by the way, the Accord (w/o sunroof only per louiswei) is a large car per EPA. It's the second car to the Sonata (w/ or w/o sunroof) classified as a large car by EPA, two and half years later. Which car will be next? Probably not the Mazda6.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    You'd think they'd just make a larger car under a different name. Everybody else does.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The 3 series is a perfect example of a car that has grown in length and girth over the years. Now BMW is introducing the 1 series, which probably is as small as the original 2002.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Again, not if there's a curve involved. Once they get out on the highway it's anyone's game because the published numbers usually don't tell us gearing. Full throttle on a straight away, yes the Accord will most likely pull away but onramps aren't all like that now are they?

    Either way I'm beating both of them by A LOT even with my wife and two kids in the cabin. Curves, no curves, whatever. ;)
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Something like McDonald's does with super sizing that meal. Call the new larger Accord the Accord SS or Super Sized. ;) We fit larger beltlines! I got the '07, and I am thinking it to be fairly large as is. Oh well, make no difference to me.
    L
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Honda already brought the Fit over here because the Civic is now the size of the original Accord (or bigger?). So the next logical step is to introduce a new mid-sized car for 2013, slotted between the Civic and Accord, at which time the Accord will be about the size of the Crown Vic. ;) Or maybe by then the Civic will be big enough to take over as Honda's mid-sized car.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    "According" to a USA Today story, only the LX trim (without sunroof) has enough interior volume to qualify as a large car per EPA measurements, just making it with no room to spare.

    I don't know why the others wouldn't, but that's what the story said.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The sunroof reduces headroom; less headroom = less cubic feet.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Grad: I was referring to the part that said only the LX trim qualilfies as "large".
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    but the difference is, there is demand for it. as us americans get fatter, we wan't more food. but with cars, the trend is different. less people getting married, waiting longer (if ever) to have kids, and having less of them. more and more people are buying smaller cars, not bigger.

    I'm not saying honda can't pull it off, if anybody can it's probably them. But seems like a gutsy thing to do with their #1 vehicle
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Length of a car does not exactly measure usable space - interior volume, trunk space.

    Interior volume is not always the best measure either. Somewhat lower roofline reduces interior volume, but does not change a mid-size to a compact no matter what EPA thinks. (Malibu is a mid-size and G6 is a compact per EPA.)

    Adding a sunroof also does not convert a large car to a midsize.

    While interior space is important, exterior dimensions, wheelbase. and weight are also important factors in classifying cars as these affect how it drives. EPA may think the Sonata and the Crown Vic are in the same size class, personally I think the 2 foot difference in length puts them in different classes.

    Of course, actually EPA also recognizes this which is why they have market class which "groups together cars that are similar from the car buyer's perspective", in addition to the official EPA size classification based on interior volume. The "market class" sensibly puts the Sonata in the "family sedan" category and the Crown Vic in the "large sedan" category.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Doesn't seem like growing larger has hurt Camry sales any (07vs06), so why would it hurt Accord sales?
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    cause the camry hasn't grown that large, they still keep the avalon bigger to fill that spot. I'm not saying it won't work, just seems to be moving in the opposite direction of where the market is going. Mid size sales have been dropping for a long time now. I seem to remember reading somewhere that over the last 10 years or so, they're down about a million units. just look at the trend. the accord sales peaked in 2001-2002. the civic, versa, and crv (i know its a suv/cuv, but it is the small version) are way up. same way with toyota. their fastest growing cars are the matrix, yarris, carolla. nissan and Gm are an exception, but the versa is selling as fast as they can make them, and the altima was made smaller this time arround. and if the sentra were a better car, it might be cutting into altima sales. same with gm. I think they only reason the impala does as well as it does is because the malibu and cobalt are such poor choices.

    As said before, It may work. Honda is usually very good at guessing the market. Just seems like a big risk to take with the #2 selling car in the country.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    And only the LX and LX-P models are full size, the EX is still a midsize because of a lack of Sunroofs.

    I also read that EX models (EX-L, EXV6 and EXLV6 models) will make up over 50 percent of sales this time.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Grad: I was referring to the part that said only the LX trim qualilfies as "large".

    That's what he was trying to say. The LX does not have a sunroof but the EX does. The sunroof takes away cubic inches from the interior because the height of the car stays the same but the inside of the ceiling is lower to allow for the sliding mechanism.

    That reduction in cubic inches is enough to reduce the overall volume back to midsize in the EX.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Tallman beat me to it. Post 4316 is exactly what I was talking about.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    some graphics from Temple of VTEC:

    image
    image

    Headroom of 2007 (front/rear): 40.4 / 38.5
    Legroom of 2007 (f/r): 42.6 / 36.8

    Looks like the only real gain in the 2008 in interior dimensions is driver's headroom which gains an inch. Legroom actually decreases in the back...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Maybe the reason growing in size didn't hurt the 2007 Camry is because it's the same length as the previous generation, yet with more interior room--a very intelligent use of space. Whereas the Accord grew nearly 6-1/2" in length from 2007 to 2008 and is now five inches longer than the Camry (and also the Sonata, although the Sonata actually has more interior room than the Accord).
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Thanks.

    I didn't know the Honda does not offer a sunroof across the board in the Accord.

    So, it still seems like the Accord shouldn't be considered "large" by Edmunds if so many Accord sales are for trims above LX.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Look back on the previous page of this thread, if you would, and tell me you see 6-1/2". I see 3" longer and 1" wider, and 1" taller. Not a huge difference, IMO. It seems bigger is better (to you) when it's the Sonata, but no so for the Accord. What's up with that?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Sonata: 188.9
    Camry: 189.2
    Accord: 194.1

    I should have used a calculator the first time--it's actually almost 5-1/2", not 6-1/2". But if you see only 3", I guess you need glasses? ;)

    Bigger is better when it doesn't make the car a cumbersome size. The Camry and Sonata manage to house roomy interiors with less length. Actually, the Camry and Sonata are longer than I like/need. I prefer cars like the Elantra and Versa that are roomy inside (mid-sized car volume) but compact outside--in this case nearly a foot and a half shorter than the Accord. The Elantra puts more interior volume than the '07 Accord EX into 177 inches. I suppose some folks like big (long) cars, but I don't see the benefit unless it translates into more useable room. Parking spaces seem to be getting smaller, and I'm not accumulating less stuff in my garage every year. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Whereas the Accord grew nearly 6-1/2" in length from 2007 to 2008

    I'm not going crazy, you did say the 08 Accord was 6-1/2" larger than the 07 Accord was (not the Camry and Sonata) :P . When it has grown only 3". These are your own words. And even though the 08 Accord is 5-1/2" longer than the Sonata or Camry, I don't see that making a big difference.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Yes, I looked up the number for the 2007 Accord but didn't notice it was for the coupe. Thanks for the correction.

    If 5-1/2" is not a big difference for you, that's great. I know that parking my 200" long van in my garage was a real squeeze sometimes. The Accord is 6" shorter, but I have more stuff in my garage now than I did when I owned the van. If I have choice between a "mid-sized sedan" that's 194" or one that's 177", I prefer the shorter, easier to park car. Or if I have a choice between two sedans that have about the same interior space, I prefer the one that's almost half a foot shorter.

    I can't wait for the Gen 9 Accord--will probably give my old Grand Caravan a run for its money in length. :sick: Maybe it will have footrests in back though. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I think your have to sit in the car to evaluate the interior roominess. Roominess is function of interior ergonomics not of cubic feet. Knowing Honda they probably made very good use of interior layout without compromising the other fine qualities of the car.

    Of course, what not "compromising is", will be subject to interpertation.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    I agree, it's not just cubic feet for interior room. But length is length--no need to try a "garage door test" to evaluate that. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    True, but to me the length is inconsequential, unless I was talking about a Mini Cooper. In a so called mid-sized family sedan I want roominess without being barge-like.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    This review was generally positive, but did mention that the base model's interior materials seemed inferior.

    An interesting fact pointed out in their review is that the first generation Accord had a 93 inch wheel base, which is shorter than the current Honda Fit.
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