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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Well, is he going to try all the others, like the Corvette, BMW Z3, S2000 Honda, and such? Looking for new cars? Ya know, if my butt was more narrow so I fit in the MX-5, I would consider one. I personally only fit in the last generations of Miatas. For fun, as in playing in the country, there is nothing better. Now for comfort, I do fit in the RX-8 better. They burn oil as they run, and use a tad more gas, but handle like on rails, for what I have heard. Not sure how many mechanics are trained to fix those engines, but then again, low fail rate, I would think. That Porsche Boxster has to be one of the more expensive cars for an oil change, though I am sure others can even top it. I sure like the looks of the Porsche. And love the looks of the Cayman. That said, the old BMW Z3 was one sexy looking car, and had some great inline six engines in it. Of course on the track, people still favor the Miata, or those S2000 Hondas. Let us know what he decides on. L
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    A Corvette is next on the list and that ought to be a blast too. We talked about the S2000, but for whatever reason, he's not too enamored by it. I get the feeling he doesn't really like cars that require high revving to get something out of it. Too bad, cuz that drops the lotus off the list :cry: Really, I was very surprised that he wanted to try the rx-8, but car and driver had a really good write up about it recently so we gave it a shot. Although he liked the great handling and of course the value of it (some new ones can be had for around 22k), it felt a little too tight inside and low end torque was non existant. He is considering a 330, but given it's weight is a bit higher up, it's not too likely. The g37 got dropped because he thinks the suspension isn't quite as well sorted as the others mentioned, but he loves the drivetrain. The hardtop mx5 would be nice but they are selling very well and are a bit hard to find unless he gets an 08 which would be available in around a month. But more than likely, he'll get a two year old model f/ an auction and go from there. Regardless, some very fun choices available...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You are right the Azera is classy, but the expression beauty is only skin deep comes to mind with the Azera. The Accord, IMO, can be said beautiful inside, beautiful outside. In pecking order of purchase. Avalon, Lucerne, Azera. Actually I would go for the Avalon and not even look at the other two.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I doubt that seriously, Honda is making big time profit on the V6. I cant believe they are charging such a premium- especially when most Accord buyers pass on the V6 anyway.
  • When it comes to time to replace the tires, I may opt for less mileage and more grip, say something like a Yokohama or Kumho tire. Seems to me they are really favorably rated at the TireRack, yet low priced.

    Tires are the single biggest component on the vehicle that affects handling. Replacing bread-and-butter highway tires with a performance tire (something those of us with 4-cyl Accords can't do) will yield substancial increase in handling performance. Also, for your central coast climate, there is no earthly reason you need all season tires. A good summer tire is designed to handle wet and dry roads, and handle the down-poors the rest of the country sees in summer.
    You might look at the BFG Comp T/A KDW. Those were pretty phenomenal on the Contour, second to the Comp T/A R1s, which were soft compound dedicated racing tires with a treadwear rating of zero. I have also had good luck with the Kumho Ecsta ASX (their psuedo-all season) but would probably recommend one of their "summer" oriented tires for your needs.
    There is a whole Accord Tires/Wheels form discussion that might also be of interest to you.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    accord will be on 10Best no matter what. even though C&d wasnt too thrilled with the weight gain and size increase I am willing to bet it will be firmly planted on 10Best in January. The Accord and 3 series are guaranteed spots on that list.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    In size, price, performance and power the AZera does stack up well against the Accord. It has everything the accord has except nav/bluetooth and a few features the Accord lacks. Now the Accord can also be seen as competition for the Avalon and Taurus/Sable.

    The Accord isnt cheap but its still cheaper than its main rivals. Its obvious that Toyota priced the camry so it could be heavily discounted because the MSRPs on them are ridiculous.
  • I see that Honda is supposed to be coming out with an Accord Tourer... hmmmm, could this be the TSX replacement

    The Accord Tourer is a Euro only version. It's the Euro Accord with a wagon body. You won't see it here.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    Actually the CTS' MSRP starts under $33k with destination. Since some people apparently have no trouble paying a few thousand more for an Accord than, say, a Sonata, then there should be no problem with paying a few thousand more for a car like the CTS compared to the Accord. And I'm sure there will be some wiggle room on the CTS. Maybe on the new Accord too, especially the V6, after the initial hoopla has died down, since it is very pricey for this class.
  • since it is very pricey for this class

    The Accord is pricey compared to the Hyundai but not the Camry. Hyundai does not define this class.
    With Honda and Toyota being far and away the highest volume movers, it makes more sense to price compare the Accord and the Camry. Accord is not trying to be the best price in class, just the best value (features + performance + resale + reliability + reputation - initial cost).
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    I looked at the CTS's starting price too, online the other day. Since it can be optioned up into the mid $40k range, I'll be curious as to what the dealers will be ordering. Since the DI 3.6 model starts around $35K, I doubt you'll be seeing many CTS's in the low 30s. I'd bet most will be pushing $40k. Great looking car though. If I was in the market for a sedan it would be the first car I'd test drive. Looks impressive.
  • It's not like this $2,000 premium for the V6 is a new thing. The current premium is well over $2,000 for a V6 vs. a 4-cyl model on the 2007 models. Why is this so unbelievable on the 2008?? :confuse:

    For example, with 07 models:

    EX-L 4-cyl 5MT - $24,250
    EX-L 4-cyl 5AT - $25,050
    EX-" V6 5AT/6MT - $27,400

    A minimum difference of $2,350 - over $3k if you want a manual.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,727
    You're right. Both the Accord and Camry are very pricey for this class, compared to several competitors such as Aura, Fusion, LaCrosse, Milan, Optima, and Sonata that are available for thousands less.

    The question for each buyer is, are the features/performance/resale/reliability/reputation differences in the Accord and Camry worth the price premium? Given the huge discounts available on the 2007 Accord and the Camry, it appears the general answer is "no". Honda and Toyota have been forced to put large incentives on their mid-sizers and dealers have had to discount them in order to compete with the lower-priced alternatives. (If Accord and Camry were worth their price premium, there would be no need for discounting, right?) I expect to see big discounts on the 2008 Accord too once the usual "new model" fascination fades.
  • The question for each buyer is, are the features/performance/resale/reliability/reputation differences in the Accord and Camry worth the price premium? Given the huge discounts available on the 2007 Accord and the Camry, it appears the general answer is "no".

    Eh, to be fair, the Accord was at the very end of a 5 year run and lacks some of the options and features available on other, more contemporary models.

    I expect to see big discounts on the 2008 Accord too once the usual "new model" fascination fades.

    There is getting to be less and less to differentiate the field of competitors. Mid-size sedans are starting to become a commodity market and unless you stand out, no one gets a premium.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Go rent an Accord for a week. Record your mileage under your actual driving conditions. Then see you will have a basis for comparison.

    That would be a fairly expensive proposition and I'm not so sure what it would prove. If the Accord got the same mileage, 14.8, I guess I would feel better. But if it got say 17-20 mpg in city driving I would be depressed. Besides, Accords are not available with AWD, not even the 2008s. In order to do a fair comparison the cars would need to have very similar drive trains.

    Also, while the fuel economy is poor, given the number of miles traveled, it sounds like the financial impact is negligible.

    Yup, we put very few miles on the car, 4,600 in nine months, so the pain is somewhat subdued, thankfully. To be honest I thought the car would deliver its EPA estimate. The original one was 19 mpg city/26 highway. The revised one is 17 mpg city/24 highway.

    On the only trip we have taken with it, a 360-mile jaunt, the Fusion did deliver 26 mpg going and 24 mpg returning with speeds of 60-70 mph.

    People on the four forums I visit report generally good mileage for the 3.0-liter V6 but very few report good mileage with the AWD option.

    As I've said repeatedly, our Fusion is a really nice car except for the gasoline mileage dealio. I would recommend one, without the AWD, to anyone and everyone.

    It's a personal preference thing, but I think the Fusion is the hands-down style winner in the mid-size segment but not everyone agrees, of course.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    So looks like the Euro 6 will be getting a larger 4 cylinder that is a 2.5 liter rated at 170HP. The car is supposed to be 40kg lighter and braking supposedly has been improved from it's current impressive (for this segment) level. Mazda is also claiming the car will be quieter than the current model, though the sound from the engine is supposed to be tuned have an aggressive sound. Looks like bluetooth, adaptive cruise control and a push button start will be available. But the bad news... a mazda rep said that the wagon and hatchback may not make it to the states the first year!!! What a bunch of hooie! These different body styles were a main reason I bought the 6, and I know many others with this car who feel the same. Also, the rumor persists that the sheetmetal on this euro 6 will be different f/ the US 6... another thing that I'm not too happy about as I think the 6 they previewed looks distinctive, aggressive, and classy (though not as streamlined like the current 6...). Well at least there is some new news about the 6...
  • If you got 25 or so MPG on your trip then it seems obvious to me that there is nothing wrong with your Fusion. It's strictly the route, because you got the stated EPA claims on the highway (the easiest, most error-free way to test - too much varies in what is considered normal "CITY" driving). Steady highway is steady highway though.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    found this f/ autoweb:
    North America
    There will be a dedicated new Mazda6 for the North American market, designed and engineered specifically for North America. More information will be provided during Summer 2008, closer to the launch of the North American model.

    booooooo!!!! :mad: :mad:
  • Aww, sorry guys!!! I know yall were really excited about the 6 you saw! :cry:
  • "There will be a dedicated new Mazda6 for the North American market, designed and engineered specifically for North America. More information will be provided during Summer 2008, closer to the launch of the North American model."

    Let me guess... dollars to doughnuts...

    Larger, heavier, and slightly softer than the current model...
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    You are s***ting me!! :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:

    Okay, let's calm down. I am pretty sure the exterior will remain pretty much align with the Euro Mazda6 since the Euro model looks pretty much like all those spy shots we saw earlier. Since there are no new Mazda6 spy shots I am willing to bet that what we saw in Frankfurt is pretty much what we are getting here. It probably will come with a different headlight, grille and backlight, that's about it.

    Engine is what worries me. I hope we will be getting the same 3.8L V6 like the Euro 6 does instead of the Ford DT 3.5. I wouldn't be surprised to see that the US spec Mazda6 will receive a different 4-banger as well.
  • "Tires are the single biggest component on the vehicle that affects handling. Replacing bread-and-butter highway tires with a performance tire (something those of us with 4-cyl Accords can't do) will yield substancial increase in handling performance. "

    Why won't I be able to put better handling tires on my 2007 Accord when the Turanzas wear out?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I hope we will be getting the same 3.8L V6 like the Euro 6 does instead of the Ford DT 3.5.

    Huh? There is no V6 for the European Mazda6. What are you talking about? Maybe a Buick.... :P
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Huh? There is no V6 for the European Mazda6.

    Yes you are right. I meant the 3.8L V6 as in rumor.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    It's getting a 3.7L version of the current 3.5L which will put out around 275-280 hp. It will be built in Japan.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    Accord's pricing is clearly based on the fact that they dont plan for buyers to cross shop anything but Camry. I'm sure that philosophy is correct since most Accord buyers probably dont look farther than Camry or Altima. COmpared to those two the accord looks good, but not compared to the rest of the field.
  • I agree with you, Camry and Altima would be their pricing benchmarks.

    But it wouldn't make any sense for the second best selling sedan to benchmark the prices of the 4th, 5th and 6th best sellers.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Given the huge discounts available on the 2007 Accord and the Camry, it appears the general answer is "no". Honda and Toyota have been forced to put large incentives on their mid-sizers and dealers have had to discount them in order to compete with the lower-priced alternatives. (If Accord and Camry were worth their price premium, there would be no need for discounting, right?) I expect to see big discounts on the 2008 Accord too once the usual "new model" fascination fades. "

    I agree 100%. The difference between Camry MSRP and TMV is pretty substantial which means Toyota has to grantnice discounts to keep volume up. Its funny because people will say "the impala is largely successful because of fleet sales" but to me thats no different from Toyota selling Camrys for $4k under sticker to keep volume up. Accord sales were way up last month due to discounting on the 2007 model to clear it out. The bottom line is Toyota (moreso than Honda) is bringing the transaction price of the camry down closer to the "inferior" competition to keep sales high. This is one reason why the Camry will remain the #1 car in American indefinitely.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    It's getting a 3.7L version of the current 3.5L which will put out around 275-280 hp. It will be built in Japan.

    The Zoom-Zoom factor is likely to be enhanced even further.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "But it wouldn't make any sense for the second best selling sedan to benchmark the prices of the 4th, 5th and 6th best sellers. "

    It would if you are trying to gain share as opposed to just tread water. Remember, total sales of one brand is one thing, but overall segment sales are another. Chevy sells more midsize cars than Honda (if we count impala) and GM sells more midsize cars than Toyota (including all brands for both). If Gm consolidated all its brands and named all midsize non luxury sedans "malibu" it would outsell camry. The sales race for a particular brand is really about bragging rights and little else. F150 is best selling pickup and I'm not sure what that proves other than Ford has huge capacity to build them and they are willing to offer huge rebates to move them.
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