Midsize Sedans 2.0

aviboy97

Thank you, pat, I appreciate it!

pat

You are very welcome! I'm glad I was able to find it.

m6user

Thanks, Pat. I didn't realize you could add reviews for previous model years.

elroy5

Do you know what MSRP's were used in the comparison? As long as they stated that the comparison was made using MSRP, what else do they have to explain? What prices would you have them use? :confuse:

m6user

No, I don't know what MSRPs they used. I assume they were fair and used comparable drivetrains/options etc. I just thought it would have been more accurate for them to offer the caveat that the comparisons really depend on what is actually paid for the cars and not NECCESARILY the MSRP. The way they stated it was that they took an Accord and a Sonata with a difference of around $1200 or so in MSRP and figured the overall cost of ownership for 5 years and, lo and behold, even though the Honda cost more....it was cheaper over five years. Thats why at the very end of the segment they mentioned that Ford and Hyundai had problems with their methodology but they didn't go into any real detail as to why.

elroy5

The way they stated it was that they took an Accord and a Sonata with a difference of around $1200 or so in MSRP and figured the overall cost of ownership for 5 years and, lo and behold, even though the Honda cost more....it was cheaper over five years.

So how did the Sonata eat up that $1200 over 5 years? I figure gas mileage, and resale value, had something to do with it, but anything else?

thegraduate

I went and looked at the Malibu yesterday and noticed that the exterior door handles wiggled around and were almost flexible when you pulled on them. Reeked of cheap. Anyone else notice this?

bwia

The handles are sturdy---no problems whatsoever in our 08 LS. What I don't like is pressing on the gas tank cover to open it. I can imagine the paint will peel off the gas cover pretty soon. In my opinion that is a design flaw.

backy

Since fuel economy on the 2009 Sonata is on par with the Accord's, and the Sonata's repair costs should be lower because of seven more years and 40k miles more warranty (2 years, 24k more b-to-b), I expect the main difference was predicted resale value.

btw... 2008 Sonatas now available for around $14.5k for either a GLS with AT and an options package (think Accord LX-P AT w/o the alloys, but with fog lamps, XM radio, etc.) or an SE with MT (think Accord EX w/o the moonroof). Put those kinds of prices into the TCO mill and see what comes out...

m6user

They didn't go that deep into the numbers but my guess would be pretty much resale value. Maybe a little on gas mileage. Repairs would probably favor the Sonata with the warranty. That was kind of my gripe. If they started off only $1200 apart and then looked at resale values down the road, you would almost have to figure in the vastly actual lower acquistion cost of the Sonata as I'm sure all the rebates/discounts etc are figured into used car prices. If you don't take them off the front end when you start your computations you are not being fair.

joe97

4 Cylinders

1. Nissan Altima 2.5L I4 M/T - 175hp 23/32
2 (tie). Nissan Altima 2.5L I4 CVT - 175hp 23/31
2 (tie). Hyundai Sonata 2.4L I4 M/T - 175hp 22/32
2 (tie). Hyundai Sonata 2.4L I4 A/T - 175hp 22/32
5. Honda Accord 2.4L I4 M/T - 175hp/190hp 22/31

6 Cylinders

1 (tie). Kia Optima 2.7L V6 A/T - 185hp 20/28
1 (tie). Hyundai Sonata 3.3L V6 A/T - 249hp 19/29
1 (tie). Honda Accord 3.5L V6 A/T - 268hp 19/29
4. Toyota Camry 3.5L V6 A/T - 268hp 19/28
5 (tie). Chrysler Sebring / Dodge Avenger 2.7L V6 A/T - 186hp 19/27
5 (tie). Nissan Altima 3.5L V6 M/T - 270hp 19/27

So Hyundai, Nissan, Honda scores efficient engines, matched with excellent fuel economy.

elroy5

btw... 2008 Sonatas now available for around $14.5k for either a GLS with AT and an options package

So why do you think Hyundai offers big rebates and incentives, instead of just lowering the MSRP? The base MSRP I saw for the 08 Sonata was $18k. I have my own opinion, but I would like to hear yours.

joe97

There aren't any national incentives on the 08 Sonata (at least not shown on the website), so I'd venture to guess those are regional and dealer's. The Sonata base actually is just a little over 17K (MSRP) and pretty well equipped too.

backy

There is a $3000 national rebate now on the '08s, no doubt to close 'em out since the '09s are already arriving on dealer lots. I also suspect there are some "secret" manufacturer-to-dealer incentives, at least for some dealers (maybe the high-volume ones), otherwise I don't see how dealers like Fitzmall and Towne Hyundai can consistently offer cars for way under invoice, before rebates.

Note however that there aren't any rebates and minimal discounts on the new-and-improved '09s. Also prices are up some for '09. So we'll see what happens to rebates and discounts on those down the road, considering the '09 is more competitive with the best in class now (more power, higher FE, spruced-up interior, improved ride/handling etc.). I think there will have to be rebates and discounts, since even Toyota, Honda, and Nissan offer rebates and/or other incentives on their mid-sizers. But will there be a $3000 general rebate (an all-time high for the Sonata, from what I can remember) on the '09 Sonata anytime soon? I'd doubt it.

joe97

Thanks. I guess it hasn't been updated on the website yet.

Agreed, with the 09 facelift arriving (and arrived for some already), deals are the 08s are to be made.

backy

Best place to see current rebates on Hyundais is hyundaiusa.com--they usually update it within a day or so of a new sales period, and you can see the variations by state.

joe97

That's where I was looking. The 07s seem to be there, but no the 08s.

backy

Ah. They were there last night, and before that. I suspect what happened is that it's changeover day, since the last batch of offers expired yesterday. Try back later today or tomorrow.

elroy5

Ok, I'll ask again. Why doesn't Hyundai lower the MSRP on the Sonata, instead of offering huge ($3000) rebates and incentives? Then the Sonata would come out on top, in the true-cost-to-own equation, even when based on MSRP.

backy

Why doesn't Toyota lower the MSRP on the Camry, instead of offering big rebates and incentives? Why not Honda, with the Accord (big incentives during its history)? Why not Nissan with the Altima? Why not Ford with the Fulan? Why not Kia with the Optima? Why not Mazda with the Mazda6? Why not Mitsubishi with the Galant? About the only mid-sizer that doesn't have big rebates and incentives right now is the Malibu, and that's because it's all-new and just now ramping up on supply.

One idea I have as to why car companies try to keep the MSRP high and then offer rebates and incentives is that once you drop the MSRP, it's hard to raise it significantly. But rebates and incentives can come and go with the wind--very flexible. And as the prices edge up, the rebates can remain if needed but the automaker still makes more money on the car. Another reason may be that over the years, buyers have become conditioned to getting rebates and incentives. Chrysler tried lowering their MSRPs and cutting incentives a few years ago, on their minivans but maybe on other vehicles too. It didn't work, because buyers were used to seeing the big rebates. So soon they were back, but now applied to a lower MSRP. Fully-loaded minivans were selling for $20k. No wonder Chrysler is hemorraging money.

It's not about which car comes out on top in somebody's "true cost to own" equation. It's about how much money the car maker makes on each sale. And savvy buyers can calculate their own "true cost to own" using the actual sale price, not some bogus price or MSRP price that no one pays in the real world.

elroy5

First you say comparing true-cost-to-own based on MSRP is not fair, be cause you can get "big incentives/rebates ($3000)" on the Sonata. Now you say these same "big incentives/rebates" can also be had on the Accord. So these rebates and incentives should only apply to the Sonata? when figuring true-cost-to-own. Does Honda offer the rebates/incentives, and buyers say "No thanks". :confuse:

m6user

Come on, use some common sense. Everyone knows that Hyundai has offered large rebates for several years almost year in/year out. Honda and Toyota also use rebates sometimes and they are a lot fewer and farther between and usually quite a bit less. More like $500 to $1000 and usually only on the current year when a major revision is on the horizon.

It's well known that one can purchase a Sonata for a lot more under MSRP that a Honda or Toyota. That's the basic crux of the argument. If someone is going to "educate" the consumer, at least base the numbers on a general idea of what is current in the marketplace instead of MSRP. OR at least like I said before, give the caveat of explaining that your computations were based on MSRP and state that they may not be correct based on current selling prices.

gooddeal2

Come on, use some common sense.

...b/c some people are just PITA.

elroy5

So what you are saying is, you can buy a Sonata for say $4,000 less than MSRP, whereas you can only buy an Accord for $2000 off MSRP. So why wouldn't Hyundai lower the Sonata's MSRP by $1000? Then they could win the true-cost-to-own without incentives/rebates factored in.

backy

Actually right now you can buy a 2008 Sonata for up to $6500 or so off MSRP--more like $5000 off for the base models, more for the loaded ones.

The Sonata DOES win the "true cost to own" calculations--those "true" calculations are what each buyer will calculate, using the real-world sales price and real-world resale prices. Cost-to-own calculations that don't take real-world purchase prices into account are not "true." Why shouldn't cost-to-own calculations factor in any discounts and rebates that apply? Why is it so important to you (at least it seems to be important) that the Sonata win some bogus "cost to own" comparison without considering the true purchase price of the car? Especially when just about every competitor also has discounts and rebates, which need to be factored into the true cost to own calculations too?

bhmr59

Hyundai isn't concerned with winning Edmund's TCO. How many different publications offer TCO information under whatever title they call it? Different assumptions are made.

The MSRP vs street price is part of marketing. People like to get deals (and once in a while a dealer catches a fish). As backy said, it's easier to reduce discounts than it is to raise MSRP.

Rebates first became popular after Nixon foolishly imposed price controls. The auto manufacturers weren't stupid. When a new model year came out, there were able to raise the MSRP...and then would offer rebates, leaving themselves able to bump the price as high as MSRP during the year without violating the price control policy.

Over time people did get used to expecting rebates...it's part of the marketing. You'd be surprised how many people are willing to pay full MSRP, less the rebate, and think they're getting a good deal. If you lower the MSRP by an amount equal to the rebate, people are still going to expect some discount cutting into dealer profit.

elroy5

Actually right now you can buy a 2008 Sonata for up to $6500 or so off MSRP--more like $5000 off for the base models, more for the loaded ones.

If Hyundai is selling Sonatas for $5k to $6k off MSRP, lowering the MSRP $2k would be no problem, right? They will not do this, however, because many Sonata buyers are paying MSRP for their cars, and lowering the MSRP would cut into their profits. Wouldn't a lower MSRP, something more in line with real world prices, attract more customers to the Sonata?

I was not the one complaining about how the Today show/CR comparison was not fair. Is it CR's fault the Sonata's MSRP is so inflated, compared to the Accord's? Blame the discrepancy on Hyundai, not CR. CR is only using the numbers they have.

guamjo

I was recently quoted an "out the door" price of $14,800 for a 2008 Hyundai Sonata GLS - Automatic (4cyl). Is this a good price for the vehicle considering the rebates that Hyundai dealerships are offering?

Any insight would be much appreciated. Thanks!

JC

m6user

I complained and all I was offering is that I thought it was a little naive and misleading for CR to say that the Accord was cheaper to own over 5 years than the Sonata and basing all their assumptions on MSRP.
I don't believe the 2008 Accord is being discounted much at all...certainly no rebates at this time. The 2008 Sonata, as Backy stated, is selling for $5000-6000 under MSRP. If you, right now, did your OWN calculation on the 5 yr cost, what would you really use, real world selling prices or MSRP? I'm not defending Hyundai's pricing model, just asking what you would use.

bhmr59

A lower MSRP would not affect Hyundai.

Hyundais gets paid by the dealer, not by the retail purchaser.

backy

They will not do this, however, because many Sonata buyers are paying MSRP for their cars, and lowering the MSRP would cut into their profits.

Why did you ask the question when you already believe you know the answer?

Wouldn't a lower MSRP, something more in line with real world prices, attract more customers to the Sonata?

First you state why Hyundai shouldn't lower the MSRP on the Sonata, then you state why they should. I am getting a little confused.

Is it CR's fault the Sonata's MSRP is so inflated, compared to the Accord's?

2008 Sonata GLS (base model): $18,345 MSRP including destination
2008 Accord LX (base model): $20,995 MSRP including destination

Looks like you have that backwards.

backy

Well, elroy5 would probably say don't go with the Sonata because someone might say it has a higher cost of ownership than a car like the Accord. Even though the out-the-door price of a comparable 2008 Accord LX with AT would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of $22k.

But personally, I think that's a really good price for the Sonata GLS with AT, especially if you have any sales tax in that price.

elroy5

I don't believe the 2008 Accord is being discounted much at all...certainly no rebates at this time. The 2008 Sonata, as Backy stated, is selling for $5000-6000 under MSRP.

Please be realistic. The 08 Accord is a newly designed model, that has been on sale for six months. The 08 Sonata is basically the same car that came out in 05. The Accord is obviously more in demand because of this. And do you actually expect me to believe people are buying Sonatas with an MSRP of $22k for $16k. If so, Hyundai's inflated MSRP is scaring away potential customers, who think they can't afford the Sonata, based on the MSRP.

elroy5

There you go again. Changing words to meet your needs.

First you state why Hyundai shouldn't lower the MSRP on the Sonata, then you state why they should. I am getting a little confused.

I said Hyundai should lower the MSRP.
"Wouldn't a lower MSRP, something more in line with real world prices, attract more customers to the Sonata?"

Then I stated why I think they will not lower the MSRP.
They will not do this, however, because many Sonata buyers are paying MSRP for their cars, and lowering the MSRP would cut into their profits.

And what I meant was "inflated" in relation to the Sonata's actual selling prices, and you know it. I know the Accord sells for more than the Sonata. That's only common sense.

backy

I only know what you said, and I quoted you exactly. If I had presumed to know what was in your head when you said the Sonata's MSRP was inflated compared to the Accord's, I suppose you would have said "there you go again" about that too.

Do you think maybe one of the reasons Hyundai has raised prices considerably on the Sonata since the debut of the 2006 redesign, while cutting back on fleet sales and on incentives over the past year or so (until this recent closeout sale of the 2008s anyway) is to increase the profits per car, at the expense of units sold? Which would you rather do, if your goal was to increase the profitability of your car company: sell 200,000 cars at a per-unit profit of $500, or 150,000 at a per-unit profit of $1000?

elroy5

I said Hyundai SHOULD lower the MSRP. Then I stated why I think Hyundai WILL NOT lower it. Do SHOULD and WILL NOT mean the same thing?
I think Accords should sell for more than Sonatas, because they are worth more. The true-cost-to-own is only another reason to choose the Accord (icing on the already tastier cake). Even if the Accord did cost more to own, it's worth it.

akirby

The Accord is obviously more in demand

Apparently the brand new 08 Accord isn't as in demand as you seem to think. Sales are down both of the last 2 months while Camry is flat or slightly up and even the 3 yr old Fusion is up this past month. I expect we'll be seeing a lot more incentives if Honda wants to keep up with last year's sales.

kdshapiro

My guess, is that will change. You can't predict a year from the first two months.

targettuning

" I think Accords SHOULD sell for more than Sonata's because they are worth more." The world Accord-ing (pun intended) to elroy5. You are so predictable and it becomes amusing...keep 'em coming I needed a laugh today.

akirby

Maybe not, but it's definitely not a good sign for a vehicle that's only 4 months old.

jeffyscott

And do you actually expect me to believe people are buying Sonatas with an MSRP of $22k for $16k.

Looks like, depending on MSRP, $5000 or so off is avalable effortlessly. So I would guess that some are buying $22,000 Sonatas for $16,000, with a little more work.

Some examples From Fitzmall:

2008 Hyundai Sonata GLS 2.4l 4cyl 5SP MT
Delivered Internet Price: $14,202
MSRP: $18,505

2008 Hyundai Sonata SE 2.4l 4 CYL M/T
Delivered Internet Price: $16,946
MSRP: $22,030

2008 Hyundai Sonata LTD 3.3l V6 5SP A/T
Delivered Internet Price: $20,693
MSRP: $25,920

I'd guess that the majorority of buyers probably still find out what cars are selling for by looking at newspaper ads. Those that use sites like this are also likely to look into what the actual selling prices are after rebates. So I doubt the "inflated" MSRP is scaring away customers.

aviboy97

Apparently the brand new 08 Accord isn't as in demand as you seem to think.

Was it someone in this thread that Honda is poised for a huge year?? I cannot remember. So far, it does not look like it.

joe97

The car's been on the market for more than six months now. It's not just the Accord, but almost the entire automotive industry. In today's shaky market, consumers are not buying because they want a car; they are buying because they need a car.

moparbad

Mazda has increasing sales every month, even with older models.

m6user

elroy5, you have almost 3 thousands posts in these forums so I find it hard to believe that you are so uninformed on how much below MSRP Sonatas are selling for. You even said that many people pay full MSRP for them which I would challenge you to provide any proof that anybody has ever paid it, let alone many.

Maybe you were upset that Accord was the car compared against, maybe you just want to play devils' advocate, I don't know, but I feel that you are arguing for arguments sake and not to make a valid point.

aviboy97

Indeed they are. But, not across the board.

Mazda6 sales are up 12.5% total for the year over last while Mazda3 sales are down 11.3%. Go figure?? The Mazda5, CX-7, CX-9, and Tribute are all up as well.

m6user

Wow, I find that amazing that the 6 is up and the the 3 is down. I saw on Autoblog that Mazda was one of the few manufactures up overall for Feb. Was the comparison period last year for the 6 especially low? What do you attribute it to? I don't see the huge discounts advertised as much this year from area Mazda dealers. They all seem to be advertising about $500-750 higher than their lowest prices this time last year.

jeffyscott

Last year a mazda3 was about the same price as a 6, and I wondered why the 3 was more popular than the 6.

I've not seen advertised prices for the 6 like last year either, seem to mostly see leases advertised.

One current ad does feature Mazda 3 5-Door S with MSRP $18,877, selling for $17,498. While a Mazda 6i Value Edition with MSRP $20,384 is at $17,698. So still seems to be better discounts on the 6 than the 3. Both have leases advertised at $199/mo. in the same ad.

joe97

Fleet

moparbad

Fleet Sales is right. More than 50% of Mazda6 are goin into fleet in some months.

Switching to subject of Sonata....
I just checked prices on Sonata and a 2008 GLS 4cyl automatic with popular equipment pkg. w/sunroof can be purchased for $16,100 delivered (includes my $500 military rebate). WOW! I'm going to ask my wife if she wants a new car. What a fantastic value.