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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    We'll know in 4 years when the clean sheet new products arrive.

    I believe what the captain meant to say was:
    oh yeah, more promises coming from Dearborn. Both the Fusion and Five Hundred were touted to be class competitive and defining 'clean sheet' new productsINSERT PERSONAL OPINION HERE

    I think there is a slight mix up between class competitive and class leading. Of course, I don't think an over powered weak kneed lounge chair is class leading either, and that seemed to drive his purchase decision.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    From your statement you are trying to tell me that the Sebring, in this case, must be the best built car available, if we are to assume that this model is covered by this Chrysler warranty? Gimme a break!

    Please re-read what I posted. I guess you stopped after the first sentence.

    I bet if Honda or Toyota came out with a similar warranty it would be praised as evidence of superior quality. Neither position is accurate as warranty length has nothing to do with quality - it's just an insurance policy with a defined cost that has to be built into the product. Higher quality means less warranty cost but you can put a 10 yr warranty on anything if you have enough profit to pay for the repairs.

    My point was the Camcord lovers have such a double standard on things like this that it's almost laughable.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    oh yeah, more promises coming from Dearborn. Both the Fusion and Five Hundred were touted to be class competitive and defining 'clean sheet' new products, neither of which are or were. How about some results - the promises are getting very, very, very, old.

    The Fusion and the Five Hundred ARE competitive - not class leading but certainly competitive. The new Taurus just might be class leading.

    There are 2 things different at Ford - Fields and Mullaly - and they are making FUNDAMENTAL changes to how Ford designs and builds cars (finally) that previous CEOs either didn't know how or didn't have the guts to do. The 09 models due out next year will be the first real sign of the product design turnaround under Fields. It will take 2 or 3 more years to fully realize the global platform strategy that Mullaly is mandating now.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Five Hundred ARE competitive"

    I agree 100%. I had a 500 for a week, it had a lot of room. Amenities were ok. Acceleration was adequate, handline was annoying and it sucked gas like no tomorrow. Would I buy one over an Accord? I don't know, this car defintely fits the value proposition, pay less, get less.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    " let the Kia haters begin the tirades... "

    I for one actually like the new Optima. From what I have seen and read, it is a big step up for that manufacturer.
  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    I fail to see how a package of extended warranties e.g: Hyundai's 10 yr/100K mile powertrain coupled with a 5 yr/60K mile bumper to bumper + additional perks is "ridiculous". I have found through experience that Hyundai doesn't "need" this type of warranty any longer to sell cars. In fact I keep looking for them to drop/diminish it. However, please don't make the mistake of believing that Honda (for sure in my experience), and Toyota don't need the reassurance of a long warranty. I do have experiences (not good ones) with a 2006 Civic and keep looking over my shoulder at the end of the 3 yrs/36K mile warranty rapidly closing in on us. I for one like AND miss the luxury of a long warranty...used or not.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    no, I said what I meant to and did start that particular post with an IMO - the 500 a regurgitated Volvo, the Fusion, of course a regurgitated 6 and both hampered by old drivetrains that simply don't measure up by about any yardstick you choose to use - power and FE come to mind. Even the new Edge, portrayed recently in a magazine as something that could have 'saved Ford' has tested very poorly (CR) relative to its competition despite getting the new 'clean sheet' 3.5 which apparently isn't really 'clean sheet' after all. Yes, class leading and competitive are certainly different terms, but, it would be refreshing to see any Detriot mfgr. make something other than a truck that would cause the real Big 3 in this class to take notice.
    The Avalon, BTW, which I guess is what you diss, is anything but 'weak kneed' in the 'Touring' trim which I own, has further won outright every comparo it has ever been a part of (TMK), has the lowest COO in its class, the best power (except for the V8s, of course), the best FE, and is the highest rated sedan CR has ever tested (tied with an Acura). If you are willing to tradeoff some of smooth and quiet ride for anything not so 'soft' that's one thing but that, my friend, is exactly what 'class leading' is all about!
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    My point was the Camcord lovers have such a double standard on things like this that it's almost laughable.

    Yes, some of them would.
    cough andres3 cough, cough

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I have found through experience that Hyundai doesn't "need" this type of warranty any longer to sell cars.
    glad you've had apparently good luck with your Hyundais, but it would be the Korean mfgrs. that 'need' that warranty the most, IMO, not so much for what they are producing now but in payment for past sins. No car should have any sort of real problems in its first 100k, the warranties 'ridiculous' (maybe a bad choice of words) in that a well designed and built car shouldn't ever darken the dealer's doorstep until well after that mileage has come and gone. In fact, I would bet that the 7 years (for those that don't drive that much, is a tougher number (from Hyundai's perspective) than the 100k. Tell me that your Hyundai has been trouble free for several years and maybe 250k miles, that's indicative of something really good as it is for any car these days.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,699
    >Hogwash, IMO - if you find Toyota or Honda offering these ridiculous warranties then it is evidence of declining market share or (even worse) declining reputation.

    How about the transmission "extension warranty" to 100K miles for Hondas. How about the recalls to put in an oiling tube they "forgot" in engineering?

    How about the current transmission/powertrain problems with flare and hesitations in Camry (ES/Avalon), which is giving Camry a real problem in image. If you are open-minded I can link to discussions here on Edmunds where people are upset about not having the "powertrain warranty" applied even during those short full warranty periods. How about the recent sludge problem with Toyotas? They extended the warranty to cover some--at least to make it look good in the media...

    Regression to the mean is occurring.

    This message has been approved.

  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Or it could be some people will love a lovable car.

    Just a thought,

    P.S. on the serious side, all cars need as long a warranty as possible, as anything mechanical can need to be repaired. In the case of some cars, more often than not.
    As for Hyundai, they got some good cars. Tested the Sonata and it seemed good. Trouble for Hyundai with this group is that there are other great choices. Good doesn't trump great.
  • colloquorcolloquor Posts: 482
    Granted, the Camcords have a good track record in the USA, but marketing and consumer perception plays an enormous part in the determination of quality. Kia, which is perceived as a cheap, unreliable brand in the USA, is well-accepted in Europe.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you buy your kid a high mileage Camcord or Civic/Corolla and that is thought to be a wise decision, do the same thing with a Kia (and many other varieties) and folks think you are crazy - perception, for sure - but also one with about 20 years of history behind it.
  • noles200noles200 Posts: 27
    guy1974 wrote this in Satun forum: To soften the blow Saturn have upto $2250 of rebates/incentives on the 07 Aura to help shift the backlog.

    Where do I get $2,250 of rebates/incentives! I just talked to the dealership and they acted like I was nuts. They said the only thing they'd give me is $500 for some conquest incentive because I'm trading in another car. $500 is crap. Tell me how to get the other $1750 and I'll buy the Aura today, otherwise I'll have to wait and upgrade to another Accord or maybe buy the '08 Malibu. I just don't understand why Saturn doesn't deal. No wonder they've only sold 9 of 128 Aura's over the past 3 weeks. That's right, they had 128 Aura's on thier lot on the 9th of this month. I don't know how they stay in business without turning inventory. The longer something sits, the worse off they are, no?
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Wonder why buying a high mileage foreign car is considered a wise decision? Seems to me like a costly repair bill would be lurking in the future. I would think the domestics would cost less to repair and be less expensive to insure. On the other hand, buying a used Kia or Hyundai seems like not so wise a move. Yeah, I would buy a used Japan make first. The Kia / Hyundai needs to be backed by the original owner warranty, thus bought new and held for ten years to pay out.

    My Dad knew a traveling salesman that bought high mileage Civic, drove them another 50K to 100K then dumped it and bought another one. Well it could work out. To buy a kid one, with the chance of it breaking, with a higher insurance rate makes little sense to me.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    I agree. anything over 150k miles is a crap shoot at best. If it was properly and professionally maintained it might go another 100k. But then again, it might not. Unless it was being had real cheap, doesn't really make a lot of sense.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,282
    Your information is all nice and dandy, but I get annoyed, suspicious, and rightfully angry when Insurance Agents (not all agents/companies, but definitely some) ask me the following question when I'm asking to get a quote:

    Is your 2.0L Turbo Audi A3 a Sport or Premium version?

    They are the exact same car, only the Sport has a "sport" suspension, and high performance summer tires vs. the Premium's all-season performance tires. Cost wise, they were virtually identical in MSRP in 2006; so I ask you..... why the question?

    I understand the need to differentiate between the 3.2 Quattro V6 and the 2.0T 4 cylinder in the A3, but not the Sport vs. Premium.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,282
    :lemon: I disagree.

    I think Chrysler's biggest problem is having produced nothing but :lemon: 's in their long history. My experience with them and from people I know is that they have produced about as many non-lemons in their entire corporate history as Yugo produced cars in the US period.

    Either way, the biggest problem is that everyone knows Chryslers have terrible reliability, including the powertrains, and that leads to terrible resale value since they don't last much past 50K miles.

    Since the warranty doesn't transfer, the resale value (one key problem) is not helped one bit! SHAME on Chrysler!

    Plus, they won't exist in 10 years anyway, so the warranty won't be worth the paper it's written on.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,282
    My point was the Camcord lovers have such a double standard on things like this that it's almost laughable.

    Funny, I don't think anyone became a Camcord lover at first sight. I think they all fell in love after one or more ownership experiences over years. It was a slow love affair. :blush:

    I don't think anyone hated the Big 3 in the US at first sight, but after an ownership experience, they were ready to kill them in hatred. :mad:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I don't think anyone hated the Big 3 in the US at first sight, but after an ownership experience, they were ready to kill them in hatred.

    Only because they stopped making my beloved Contour :)
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