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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • Just curious, does anybody know of a dealer that is receiving the 08 Coupe this week? Cuz I contacted a few places and they all said they'll be arriving in about two weeks. That's like in October!?!? What happened to the rumor of it being released on Sept 20th??
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Fake or real wood trim has become a fine way to cover up design/assembly/quality deficiencies that prevail in most cars.

    How does "wood trim" cover up deficiencies and "carbon fiber trim" not do the same thing? Or am I misinterpreting your intent to state the "wood trim" and "carbon fiber trim" are used to cover up deficiencies.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Thats all I can recall at this time. Happy?

    I was neither happy nor unhappy - it was a simple question because you didn't list all the "other failed items" and I was curious what was in the list. Don't be so defensive.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    From what I've seen it appears the plan was to use a tweaked 3.0L for the 2009 Fusion instead of the 3.5L due to supply issues - but that has apparently changed and the 3.5L will debut with the 09 model next year. They've either diverted engines from other vehicles or ramped up 3.5L production ahead of the original schedule. A new 2.5L I4 is also rumored in addition to the new 2nd generation hybrid.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Never thought about that. Another safety thing to worry about, as my arm is going to be taken off by the air bag, when all I wanted to do was to hand an elbow out? Oh great ! Guess my next new car will be an old used car. Too much going on with these new cars. :confuse: I don't know if I am safer or just going to be banged up more. :cry: Let's see, you must sit up straight, keep hands at 9 and 3 instead of 10 and 2 or what I do quite often across the center of the wheel. And now I am not suppose to hand an elbow out the window. OK, in realistic terms, that normally is around town at 10 to 20 MPH. - Loren the human pinata in a wreck!
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I usually drive with my left hand only, and it's resting on my leg, near the bottom of the steering wheel, so my arm can't reach the door sill very easily. Some people have more adjustments to make than others. If your car has side airbags, you should not be hanging your arm out the window. Even resting your arm on the arm rest could be trouble in a crash. Safety comes at a price, in more ways than one. Where do we draw the line on "Safety", and are all these safety devices worth the price? I think ABS is important, and all the airbags I can get. But how much does ESC cost? for something that I will most likely never need? I have only used ABS twice in 20 years, and I can't think of one instance where ESC would have been needed.
  • Did I actually use the word liar? I don't think so. Do I always believe what I read especially a "voice" on the internet ...nope. Now that that is settled...
    How about if I post my own car story which is true (or call me a liar if you choose). I own a 1995 Dodge Stratus that has been in the family since 1998. My daughter bought it from the original owner with 92K miles showing, drove it until Sept. 2003 when she traded it for a new 2003 Elantra. After some thought (and since I needed another "work" car) I purchased it from the Hyundai dealer where she traded. It had 132,XXX miles showing at that time. It now has 192,054 miles. I have added new tires and those have about 40+K miles with ~ 1/2 tread left, new front brake pads (they don't last as long as a Honda ) a new timing belt (the second) at 186K miles and replaced the water pump (original) and idler pulleys (also original) at the same time. The AC compressor and components are original, the power steering pump and alternator are also original. I replaced inner and outer tie rod ends and struts and shocks not too long ago and..you guessed it they were original too. Yeah, bulbs have been replaced over its lifetime as well. The engine has not been touched except for plugs and wires (it is a Mitsubishi 2.5 liter V-6). It uses little oil (about 1 qt. over 4500-5000miles). The interior, especially the seat fabric, looks new except for one cigarette "melt" on the driver seat. In fact it looks much better than that on our 2006 Civic which has a worn patch on the driver seat AND for which my dealer has a replacement waiting only for me to make an appointment to be installed. The Civic has a little over 10K miles.
    It is tight with no rattles and handles great. I run it to to redline through the gears every now and again and it will still cruise at 75 mph for hours and my last tank was 27+ mpg. It passed the fairly rigid Pa. state inspection (including the emissions part) last week with no problems.
    So, in spite of how poorly many here think of Chrysler products I think it compares favorably to your Honda.
    Will I buy another Dodge because of this experience? Nope, Hyundai for me.
  • Will I buy another Dodge because of this experience? Nope, Hyundai for me.

    Eh, they have the same engine, whats the difference?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    From what I've seen it appears the plan was to use a tweaked 3.0L for the 2009 Fusion instead of the 3.5L due to supply issues - but that has apparently changed and the 3.5L will debut with the 09 model next year. They've either diverted engines from other vehicles or ramped up 3.5L production ahead of the original schedule. A new 2.5L I4 is also rumored in addition to the new 2nd generation hybrid.


    No official figures on that yet but I've seen 180-200 HP stated for that I4. That's a pretty big range so I'm wondering if the Ford version will have the ~180 and the Mazda version will be closer to 200 after they sprinkle the Zoom Zoom dust on it. ;)
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    I read your Dodge Stratus (192,000 miles) and Honda Civic (10,000 miles) account with great interest. The last two sentences threw me for a loop:

    Will I buy another Dodge because of this experience? Nope, Hyundai for me.

    Why a Hyundai, Robert? I am curious.

    One of the reasons why we bought a 2007 3.0-liter V6 SEL AWD Ford Fusion was because of generally good experiences with a 1997 3.8-liter V6 Ford Thunderbird (83,000 miles) and a 2000 2.0-liter I4 Ford Focus station wagon (92,000 miles).
  • What do you mean by that? The fact that Chrysler is using an I-4 co-developed by Hyundai and several others? It isn't, strictly speaking, a Hyundai engine, nor the same engine found in Hyundai products.
    And, as far as I am concerned, Dodge in no way equates Hyundai in the rest of the car either.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Eh, they have the same engine, whats the difference?

    A Dodge and a Hyundai have the same engine?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    No. The four-cylnider Chrysler "world engines" do share some common design elements with some Hyundai engines such as the 2.4L I4 on the Sonata, but they are not the same engines.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The Mazda6 also has the feature where windows can be opened by the remote...only the two front ones for some reason.

    As for "why is the rear window going all the way down so important...?", I never said it was...I think I said it was a minor point, but that I prefer them to go down. I had just assumed that the days of windows going down 1/2 or 2/3 were over, hearing that they are not in the case of the Fusion was a surprise. The Accord's sound like they are about like the Mazda6's.

    There are a lot of other small preferences that I have, some I got in the 6, some I did not. These are not, by themselves, likely to cause me to choose one vehicle over another. Some of these preferences that come to mind are: steering wheel audio controls, "manual" mode in an automatic, extender on sun visor, doors that open without having to unlock first, automatic door locks, the "old" mazda6 type vents, minimal chrome, no wood or fake wood,...
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    No official figures on that yet but I've seen 180-200 HP stated for that I4.

    I highly doubt the power numbers will be that high. Mazda has announced they made the 2.3L into a 2.5L and it will produce 170hp. That is for Europe. I cannot believe that the U.S. application will be any different. I do not see anything higher then 180, and 180 might be doubtful.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    I had just assumed that the days of windows going down 1/2 or 2/3 were over, hearing that they are not in the case of the Fusion was a surprise.

    As I already explained the Fusion windows go all the way down at the rear of the window and only stick up about 2" at the front tapering down to flush about halfway. They're barely noticeable and you can still put your arm out on the rear half of the window if necessary. That's about as good as you can get with most designs today.
  • Its Ron but to answer your question. While we had a relatively good experience with this, a 12 year old Dodge, that I bought partly because I maintained it even when my daughter owned it and therefore didn't expect any suprises there isn't any new Chrysler product that interests me. Couple this with the corporate problems (a new owner etc.) Chrysler is experiencing and I won't consider one.
    Why Hyundai? Well, as I said my daughter has one (2003 Elantra)with about 36K miles and no problems, our son has the 2000 Elantra I bought him in Dec. 2003. It had about 63K miles then and has 166K miles now (he adds 100 miles per day in his commute). I know every penny that was spent on this car since we bought it and the list of replacement parts/repairs is as follows:
    1. new alternator @ 154,XXX miles.
    2. the original battery ruined by the failure of the alternator..same mileage
    3. 2 sets of tires over 103K miles.
    4. several sets of Hyundai brand rotors that for some reason developed "chatter" upon braking. These were replaced under warranty but I finally bought Bendix rotors that have been fine since. An anomaly?
    5. 1 set plugs and wiring.
    6. new timing belt @ ~ 80K miles and a new water pump at the same time because it is prudent to do that.
    7. in Feb of this year a "flex pipe" was needed in the exhaust system. It connected the down pipe (at the exhaust manifold) to the rest of the exhaust.
    Further I personally have owned two Santa Fe SUV's. One a 2002 the other a 2003. Before anyone tries to make something of the early trade for the 2003 there were certain features introduced in '03 I "had to have". And before someone tries to make something about trading a Hyundai for a Honda (in the fall of 2005) the simple explanation is gas went over $3.00 per gallon for the first time ever and fuel economy while reasonable for an SUV wasn't that great in light of the price. So, the uncertainty of future prices was the reason for that trade. It wasn't that I disliked my Hyundai or that it was troublesome, on the contrary, it like all the others in our family was extremely troubleFREE. I originally wanted a Sonata but chose maximum economy and bought the Civic. Why not a 2006 Elantra? Well, that design was getting a bit "old" at 5 model years and I knew a redesign was in the works but didn't want to wait more than a year for that either. In light of the disappointment with the Civic I wish I had gone with the Sonata. I like Hyundai, I tried to like Honda but too many small things turned me off. To be clear it never left us sit, never had major component trouble but I lost track of Honda service bulletins that were issued to correct original flaws. That plus several recalls (three that I know of) were also issued. The latest is: #07V40200 a brake light switch problem...oh, that isn't the latest there also is #07V399000 which is a rear wheel bearing/speed sensor issue that may allow the rear wheel (s) to fall off.
    In summary there is no major foul-up for Hyundai ever.. nothing like the Toyota engine sludge issue or Honda transmission problems. Never say never but not to date. You are correct go with the good experience and that was/is Hyundai not Honda..sorry boys. So yeah, Hyundai for me.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I highly doubt the power numbers will be that high. Mazda has announced they made the 2.3L into a 2.5L and it will produce 170hp.

    Direcet injection will easily raise it to 200. I was wrong about the numbers I read though. The Ford employee who graced us with the prelim numbers for the 2008 Mazda6 stated 190-200 HP for the 2.5L I4 and, after checking the post again, it is a DI engine. Remember, these are prelim numbers, but from a reliable source IMO.
  • Sorry, just the same head and block. My bad. The Chrysler "world engine" has Mercedes' variable valve timing, Hyundai uses their own.

    Eh, a rose by another name...
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    As I already explained the Fusion windows go all the way down at the rear of the window and only stick up about 2" at the front tapering down to flush about halfway.

    Sorry, I must have misread something...I thought that comment was about the Accord. I guess we did not get a detailed rear window report from any Accord owners :) . The Sonata was reported to have windows that go all the way down.

    Urnews had said fusion left 4 inches of rear window :confuse: . What you say about the Fusion sounds exactly like the Mazda6, which makes more sense.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It applies to any additional trim piece (carbon fiber, aluminum, wood). But wood is something that is a bit too common, down to the cheapest economy cars that don't have much else going. And I equally detest the silver/aluminum plastic trims too, in any car.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    What's a couple of inches between friends? :blush:
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Urnews had said fusion left 4 inches of rear window . What you say about the Fusion sounds exactly like the Mazda6, which makes more sense.

    I was mistaken, relied on memory. What Allen Kirby described is accurate. By actual measurement, 1.5 inches of the glass is above the sill at the most forward point. It tapers downward and disappears about midway of the sill. I apologize for the faulty information.

    It still bugs me that it doesn't disappear completely. Not a biggie, to be sure, just a minor annoyance. It looks like a mistake even if it's not.
  • Sources I found indicate that "reportedly" while the basic block was designed by Hyundai, Chrysler and Mitsubishi made "a large number of modifications and changes to make it more efficient and adapt it to their uses and technologies. Most of the packaging and dressing such as the intake manifold and valve timing equipment appear to have been developed by each partner independently and will be used independently as well." Many components are out sourced including rods pistons camshafts and others.
    Further there are several variants of this including a 1.8 liter a 2.0 liter a 2.4 liter (which has more hp than the Sonata @ 173) and both a 2.4 liter turbo (which has far more @ 300) and a 2.0 liter diesel. I would say that even the basic block as designed by Hyundai has been modified enough by both Chrysler and Mitsu. that it is not the same engine as used in the Sonata. The displacement is the same, true, but the engine has enough differences that..nope..it isn't a "Hyundai engine" any more than it is a "Mitsubishi engine" or a "Chrysler engine" it is a GEMA engine which is a separate company...co-developed for sure. If you want further differences I guess I can research more and come up with some. Further research shows no Hyundai applications for this series of engines.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Another good report, Ron. Much appreciated.

    In summary there is no major foul-up for Hyundai ever.. nothing like the Toyota engine sludge issue or Honda transmission problems. Never say never but not to date. You are correct go with the good experience and that was/is Hyundai not Honda..sorry boys. So yeah, Hyundai for me.

    The thing that bothers me so much about the Toyota sludge problem is how the company stonewalled for so long. It took a class-action lawsuit to get the company to do the right thing. Many many thousands of owners were affected.

    One of the nice things about our 3.0-liter V6 Ford engine in our 2007 Fusion is the fact that it is not known to have any inherent problems at this stage of the game. It is dependable and reliable even though it might not be as sophisticated as some other engines in the marketplace.

    From all that I've read, the Sonata is a fine mid-size car. We went with the Fusion because of good past experiences with Ford products and the fact that the dealer, Sherwood of Salisbury, Md., is top notch in our book.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The Ford employee who graced us with the prelim numbers for the 2008 Mazda6 stated 190-200 HP for the 2.5L I4 and, after checking the post again, it is a DI engine. Remember, these are prelim numbers, but from a reliable source IMO.

    I am a Mazda employee, and have heard no such numbers yet. I will be more then happy to eat my words if the North American 2009 Mazda6 I4 gets more then 170hp! :shades:

    I have 2008 Mazda6's in my inventory, the new Mazda6 will be a 2009, not 2008.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Hard to say how many engines will bite the dust due to oil sludge problems. My Dad has an i4 engine and the Camry is the 2000 model year. He got an extension on warranty. The worst things was a knock down on resale values from excellent down to just good. He has the oil changed ever 3K miles or so. That is another cost, the extra oil changes.
    Seems to be running just fine. Toyota should offer an extra $2,000 off the purchase of any Toyota car in the future to those caught up in this poor engineering fiasco. Overall, the car is not interior or exterior as trouble free as was his '91 Camry, which was a zero defect car. He just did the oil changes, air filter, tires, and spark plugs in nine years time. It was never back to the dealership once. I think the early 90's to perhaps the mid-90's was the last of best of the Camrys. I had a Corolla '98 and it was pretty much trouble free, sort of like the earlier Camry cars were. Dad's 2000 is OK, and the only major concern is the oil changes all the time and resale value taking a couple or thousand hit due to oil sludge problems. Still has more resale value than does most any domestic car I can think of. Can't think of any Toyota, at this time, which lights my fancy at all. Now, if they made a RWD Celica again, then..... The New Camry interior is not too hot, and exterior is sort of odd in some areas, so before any other considerations, it was off my list, when I was mid-size car hunting.
    L
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    About the only major "foul ups" from Hyundai have been the 1st generation Excel (a really big foul up) and the infamous overstating of horsepower about five years ago. I owned a car affected by that, found out its engine had 135 hp vs. 140. I got a $100 service coupon out of it, and there wasn't actually a problem with the car, so no big deal.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Hyundai did lose some young buyers, when they refused to repair for no cost, a clutch problem on the 2003 Tiburon cars. Under warranty, of course they would not normally repair parts which can wear due to heavy use or loads, which on a manual transmission could burn out a clutch in one day. This however seems to be some faulty part, as it is most prevalent on the 2003 Tiburon. Don't know if this is still in court, out of court, or what Hyundai is going to do about this issue. Of course, if they can prove no product defect, they will win in court. Alas, they still will have lost. Negative relationships with young customers is not a good thing, as they are the people with growing buying power, and some dozen cars later on in life, could have been a loyal customer. The flip side is that Hyundai may be reluctant to replace a part in a car which can fail due to over-stressing as in racing or dragging a car. The other side is pretty sure though they have a case of the old faulty part was installed charge against the company. Let me know if you heard of a settlement. Guess I personally would buy an automatic Hyundai and avoid the clutch models. L
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    So you can take that $100 coupon and buy a K&N air filter to get some of that lost HP back ;) Or go to See' and buy some candy, and just not worry about the HP.

    Hyundai Sonata is a good enough car, but those high fleet sales are not helping the resale values. It is really one company to watch, as they grow and grow. Wonder if the Elantra gets a new more powerful engine soon. Is it not approaching the mid-size class, as per interior room? L
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